A Cracking Article in The Thunderer
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LateArmLive.
Thanks for for comment. Now, if you read what I typed, then you will see I made no mention of the suspected (yes, I obviously read it) team in the article, but was actually referring to a show of force and not the suspected team (it's all there in type for you to see).
Yes I do mention ROE's, but am referring to them not being the most lethal they can be (although I do not know you, it does seem you may have not been on the planet for long, if you are not aware of how the U.S. commanders have slated Brit ROE in recent times).
What we do agree on, is me sticking to what I know. So as I alluded to above, if an enemy jet only passes over me at low level (no guns/rockets) then I would just carry on as normal (SOP's regarding effective enemy fire-as I am sure you will know).
On the other hand, if the team in the article were only suspected (as YOU mentioned them), then assuming they were innocent, the low fly by could be a really good way to alienate the locals
*if you have grasped hold of the single word 'enemy' I am sure you already know these blighters can be anywhere, and thus very low flying will expose the aircraft to their nasty deeds.
Thanks for for comment. Now, if you read what I typed, then you will see I made no mention of the suspected (yes, I obviously read it) team in the article, but was actually referring to a show of force and not the suspected team (it's all there in type for you to see).
Yes I do mention ROE's, but am referring to them not being the most lethal they can be (although I do not know you, it does seem you may have not been on the planet for long, if you are not aware of how the U.S. commanders have slated Brit ROE in recent times).
What we do agree on, is me sticking to what I know. So as I alluded to above, if an enemy jet only passes over me at low level (no guns/rockets) then I would just carry on as normal (SOP's regarding effective enemy fire-as I am sure you will know).
On the other hand, if the team in the article were only suspected (as YOU mentioned them), then assuming they were innocent, the low fly by could be a really good way to alienate the locals
*if you have grasped hold of the single word 'enemy' I am sure you already know these blighters can be anywhere, and thus very low flying will expose the aircraft to their nasty deeds.
On the other hand, if the team in the article were only suspected (as YOU mentioned them), then assuming they were innocent, the low fly by could be a really good way to alienate the locals
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Lets get you started. As you obviously have opinions on the subject,
My point is covered on the "reds to go" thread as I don’t see the rationale for retaining 9 + 1 ac when we now have a force of less than 40 000 ( FYI when I joined it was 110 000). If you want the whole story then read the thread.
As for their OPSEC - they obviously want the red suit more than obscurity which is their choice and I respect that. I understand from an ex reds mate that the publicity vs. OPSEC ( ie long gone and you could become prime media fodder) aspect is discussed during selection which is as good as you could wish for I suppose - I am just somebody who has no desire to be in the media for any reason whatsoever.
As for the solution - I like the Israeli way of doing business but I concede that its impossible in the above case.
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C130JB
Thanks for that. I'm definitely with you on whether or not personal information should be allowed into the public domain, and have always been careful of my own details for similar reasons.
It does surprise me that certain information comes out on occasion, and I certainly wonder whether or not the individuals have thought things through.
RD
Thanks for that. I'm definitely with you on whether or not personal information should be allowed into the public domain, and have always been careful of my own details for similar reasons.
It does surprise me that certain information comes out on occasion, and I certainly wonder whether or not the individuals have thought things through.
RD
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LateArmLive.
I can see you are not sure where I am coming from now
Originally by LAL
Whereas if they'd actually engaged the team, the locals would have really been
upset. Not really sure where you're coming from old man.
Ok. First off. If the crew had attacked they would not have gone in so low
perhaps (especially if bombs were used
).
If they were not going to attack, then do not bother with a show of force fly by,
as you may find this does not deter forces who are believers in fate, and believe
their day of death is already mapped out and is un alterable (we don't need to
dwell on this as you are probably very aware of this problem, from ground troops
whom face the taliban daily at only a few hundred metres or less).
If the diggers were actually taliban, then we can still not say whether the locals
would be upset or not, as we would not know whom they sided with!
But of course, yes, if the locals were innocent, and we kill them or do a fly by,
then yes they well be alienated (as you pointed out).
So, was a show of force the best way to find out the intent of the diggers?
Either way, keep safe. And have a good new year
I can see you are not sure where I am coming from now
Originally by LAL
Whereas if they'd actually engaged the team, the locals would have really been
upset. Not really sure where you're coming from old man.
Ok. First off. If the crew had attacked they would not have gone in so low
perhaps (especially if bombs were used
).If they were not going to attack, then do not bother with a show of force fly by,
as you may find this does not deter forces who are believers in fate, and believe
their day of death is already mapped out and is un alterable (we don't need to
dwell on this as you are probably very aware of this problem, from ground troops
whom face the taliban daily at only a few hundred metres or less).
If the diggers were actually taliban, then we can still not say whether the locals
would be upset or not, as we would not know whom they sided with!
But of course, yes, if the locals were innocent, and we kill them or do a fly by,
then yes they well be alienated (as you pointed out).
So, was a show of force the best way to find out the intent of the diggers?
Either way, keep safe. And have a good new year
The SOF would have been called for by the ground commander, not the aircrew. It does work well at times in order to diffuse a potentially hostile situation, although I am only too aware that sometimes a SOF does nothing (although I wish I could have seen their faces when the KRET came off.....)
I wasn't there on the day of the incident, but I believe the SOF was the best solution at the time. The way I see it there are 2 possible alternatives:
1. Wait and see what happens. This is potentially risky as by the time someone gets a PID on the "rocket team" then it could be too late and you would be looking at an attack on KAF.
2. Hit them first. This should never happen unless there is a PID (ideally from a ground callsign) of EF. Very difficult to achieve at night from the air. If there was a ground callsign in the area then they would have been able to investigate the diggers and that would have been the best solution, but I bet there was none available at the time.
So, the SOF was carried out at the time and "The guys ran for their trucks and careered off. There were no rocket attacks that evening.”
That, to me, says that the SOF was the best option.
We'll probably go around this one over and over, but that's just my opinion on the situation. Have a good New Year too
)I wasn't there on the day of the incident, but I believe the SOF was the best solution at the time. The way I see it there are 2 possible alternatives:
1. Wait and see what happens. This is potentially risky as by the time someone gets a PID on the "rocket team" then it could be too late and you would be looking at an attack on KAF.
2. Hit them first. This should never happen unless there is a PID (ideally from a ground callsign) of EF. Very difficult to achieve at night from the air. If there was a ground callsign in the area then they would have been able to investigate the diggers and that would have been the best solution, but I bet there was none available at the time.
So, the SOF was carried out at the time and "The guys ran for their trucks and careered off. There were no rocket attacks that evening.”
That, to me, says that the SOF was the best option.
We'll probably go around this one over and over, but that's just my opinion on the situation. Have a good New Year too
and I certainly wonder whether or not the individuals have thought things through
And therein lies the snake in the grass just waiting to bite your @ss......
And therein lies the snake in the grass just waiting to bite your @ss......
All it will take is a quick Google / FB search down the list of students to see exactly who they have in through the doors that week.
Wonder if they will be so keen for those exploits to be made public? I would hope so, it will be a very good lesson in OPSEC and PERSEC to all concerned.
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There may be a bigger picture (pardon the pun) here. If you Google "UN objective afghanistan" you will come across a UN document..
http://www.un.org/womenwatch/daw/doc...3/AFGHANIS.pdf
..in which the equality of woman in Afghan society is seen as a primary objective. Therefore it may be that our own Govt is promoting the 'liberation forces' as being one of gender equality and that these particular individuals are simply pawns in that game.
As an aside, the reason why I came across this document is to try and establish what exactly it is that we are doing in Afghanistan that justifies the 244 UK lives lost so far. The seed that sowed the curiosity was more statements in the Press that now seem born of SOP Press Statement post death then actual heart felt realities of a life lost. Have the military come to accept loss of life as "Yup; **** happens".
http://www.un.org/womenwatch/daw/doc...3/AFGHANIS.pdf
..in which the equality of woman in Afghan society is seen as a primary objective. Therefore it may be that our own Govt is promoting the 'liberation forces' as being one of gender equality and that these particular individuals are simply pawns in that game.
As an aside, the reason why I came across this document is to try and establish what exactly it is that we are doing in Afghanistan that justifies the 244 UK lives lost so far. The seed that sowed the curiosity was more statements in the Press that now seem born of SOP Press Statement post death then actual heart felt realities of a life lost. Have the military come to accept loss of life as "Yup; **** happens".
the DS will have a field day with them
