US tragedy
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This thread is "required reading" and should be archived.
Having done two USAF exchange tours I have a huge affinity with, and admiration for, the USA and its values - if not for its peoples' historical awareness. A few points:-
There are differences in culture between our two nations and air forces. In US values all men are born equal and democracy is the ultimate "good". In British values all men are quite clearly NOT born equal and democracy is merely the least unpleasant form of government. The USAF is superbly professional, but is "checklist-driven". The RAF still, somehow (I hope), relies on individual flair and initiative.
Vive le Différence!
Having done two USAF exchange tours I have a huge affinity with, and admiration for, the USA and its values - if not for its peoples' historical awareness. A few points:-
- the Uk was not a recipient of Marshal Aid; it was a recipient of Lease/Lend
- Bread rationing was introduced in UK in 1946 to enable grain to be diverted to Germany
- The US "Founding Fathers" were British Colonials who, in drawing up the US constitution, drew heavily on British political philosophy and classical scholarship
- We have got along fine without a "Bill of Rights" because the basic principle of English Common (ie traditional) Law is that you can do whatever you want unless it is prohibited by statute
There are differences in culture between our two nations and air forces. In US values all men are born equal and democracy is the ultimate "good". In British values all men are quite clearly NOT born equal and democracy is merely the least unpleasant form of government. The USAF is superbly professional, but is "checklist-driven". The RAF still, somehow (I hope), relies on individual flair and initiative.
Vive le Différence!
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Jesus H, am I missing something here, or what? This thread would appear to have degenerated into a pathetic attempt at one-upmanship and “who’s the best at history”. It is important to remember the lessons of the past, however, the world today stands on the brink of a new dawn. We are where we are today by having shown unity and common purpose in defeating a Greater evil. So what if the Americans entered WW2 late – they came, and because they came, we won. So what if the Brits didn’t go to Vietnam – it was a war that was lost from the outset, and the Brits being there would have done nothing to affect that. And so what if a huge amount of cash is poured into NI from the USA – lots came from Australia too, although that is rarely mentioned.
The policy of the USA in the Middle East is not perfect – but whose is? The actions of Israel do go beyond “reasonable” self-defence, but then which country can claim not to have done the same?
The fact is, in my “O” level educated experience, things have got to change. We, and I mean all peace loving nations, have to make a stand against the Terrorist evil that exists in this world. I don’t give a monkeys if you are black, white, yellow, Christian, Muslim or Church of Latter Day Sheep sh*ggers – unless we want to live in a world of perpetual fear, we have to stand up and be counted. What sort of world do you want to bequeath to your children?
Who cares who did what in the past, or which nationality invented what. We owe it to ourselves as much as we owe it to the USA to stand shoulder to shoulder. After the actions of this week, we should all declare ourselves American.
UVG
The policy of the USA in the Middle East is not perfect – but whose is? The actions of Israel do go beyond “reasonable” self-defence, but then which country can claim not to have done the same?
The fact is, in my “O” level educated experience, things have got to change. We, and I mean all peace loving nations, have to make a stand against the Terrorist evil that exists in this world. I don’t give a monkeys if you are black, white, yellow, Christian, Muslim or Church of Latter Day Sheep sh*ggers – unless we want to live in a world of perpetual fear, we have to stand up and be counted. What sort of world do you want to bequeath to your children?
Who cares who did what in the past, or which nationality invented what. We owe it to ourselves as much as we owe it to the USA to stand shoulder to shoulder. After the actions of this week, we should all declare ourselves American.
UVG
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As with everyone here, I watched with horror as the airliners flew into the towers. Even more so when I heard that all the passengers had been told what was going to happen. I think I would rather have been blissfully ignorant of my impending doom. But I am also struck by the sense of similarity, even if only photographically, with the pictures of cruise missiles flying up Bagdhad high street and crashing into populated buildings. I am sure I wasn't the only one cheering when that happened, but I wonder if the Middle East doesn't view that image in the same way as we have viewed the attacks in the USA.
Terrorism is not the answer to anything. We have had enough problems with the Irish situation, but we have always targetted the enemy, not the population in general. It looks like we are about to enter into a new type of warfare, with NATO having invoked Charter V, in declaring war on an unspecified organistaion rather than a state. This is going to be a very difficult nut to crack and our targeteers need to be certain that they are going after valid military targets. The population of Kabul has as much right to life, even under what we view as a repressive regime, as the people of the USA, Northern Ireland, Plaestine, Israel, etc. We need a calculated response, clearly targetted agaist the people responsible. We do not need any more martyrs.
Terrorism is not the answer to anything. We have had enough problems with the Irish situation, but we have always targetted the enemy, not the population in general. It looks like we are about to enter into a new type of warfare, with NATO having invoked Charter V, in declaring war on an unspecified organistaion rather than a state. This is going to be a very difficult nut to crack and our targeteers need to be certain that they are going after valid military targets. The population of Kabul has as much right to life, even under what we view as a repressive regime, as the people of the USA, Northern Ireland, Plaestine, Israel, etc. We need a calculated response, clearly targetted agaist the people responsible. We do not need any more martyrs.
Ali Barber - I think you'll find that the TLAMs in Iraq were specifically targetted against known military installations and that the purpose of that strategy was to achieve minimal collateral damage. Which it did.
The criminals who conducted the appalling attacks on the WTC and the Pentagon did so in a manner purposely designed to maximise the death and injury of entirely innocent civilians. Not much of a comparison with the TLAMs in the Gulf, I contend.
Quite for how long the vast majority of entirely decent Muslims in this world are going to tolerate their peaceful religious beliefs being grossly distorted by these gangs of liars and murderers remains to be seen. Perhaps the Islamic nations will be able to find and execute the guilty in the manner required by the laws of their faith; however, I suspect that it is rather more likely that 'Jake and Ellwood' will be coming to play the BLUes in a certain country very soon and will largely do the job for them...........
[ 15 September 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]
The criminals who conducted the appalling attacks on the WTC and the Pentagon did so in a manner purposely designed to maximise the death and injury of entirely innocent civilians. Not much of a comparison with the TLAMs in the Gulf, I contend.
Quite for how long the vast majority of entirely decent Muslims in this world are going to tolerate their peaceful religious beliefs being grossly distorted by these gangs of liars and murderers remains to be seen. Perhaps the Islamic nations will be able to find and execute the guilty in the manner required by the laws of their faith; however, I suspect that it is rather more likely that 'Jake and Ellwood' will be coming to play the BLUes in a certain country very soon and will largely do the job for them...........
[ 15 September 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]
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Jacko, Heloplt, etc
Methinks that were are losing our way here. Can I humbly suggest that we bury our differences - debate is, of course, important but so is unity and focus, particularly at times like this. Anything less than total and unequivocal condemnation of these despicable acts lends encouragement to the cowards that support these crimes against innocents. We all hope that cool heads prevail in determining a response but for now let us offer nothing less than heartfelt sympathy for our US cousins.
Methinks that were are losing our way here. Can I humbly suggest that we bury our differences - debate is, of course, important but so is unity and focus, particularly at times like this. Anything less than total and unequivocal condemnation of these despicable acts lends encouragement to the cowards that support these crimes against innocents. We all hope that cool heads prevail in determining a response but for now let us offer nothing less than heartfelt sympathy for our US cousins.
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Just had a telephone conversation with a dear friend and former partner when I worked for a federal law enforcement agency. He has been working inside the crash site at the pentagon since the incident occurred. He reports the people working there are totally committed to their duty, are pulling together and doing anything that can be done, spirits are high, anger is growing.
The crime scene search is continuing, recovery of bodies is beginning. He reports total destruction of the aircraft as can well be expected. NTSB suggests information from the CVR/FDR 's may be limited due to the magnitude of forces and amount of fire damage. American flags are waving,investigative leads of any type are being worked exhaustively. The entire effort is grimly focused upon the matter with no resources being withheld. His spirits are high....he is looking forward to hearing of the President's plans for seeking out the perpetrators and is thankful that not only the perpetrators but those who provide aid and comfort and logistical support or harbor the terrorists are to be dealt with as well.
I shall not repeat the description he provided of the sights his work presents beyond saying it is most grim and heartbreaking. He and his team are seeing the results of the terrorists attack firsthand and close up and personal. They are filling the body bags. As he said..."This is no drill!"
I told him of this website and of some of the positions being put forth by various subsribers. He suggested a visit to the recovery site would cure the most liberal person. He described the scene as being just as gruesome as any other mass murder sight known to history if not worse because of the devastation inflicted by the crash.
He is right...perspective is controlled by your distance from the event.
God Bless their souls...saying a prayer for the dead and injured and those that lost loved ones.
The crime scene search is continuing, recovery of bodies is beginning. He reports total destruction of the aircraft as can well be expected. NTSB suggests information from the CVR/FDR 's may be limited due to the magnitude of forces and amount of fire damage. American flags are waving,investigative leads of any type are being worked exhaustively. The entire effort is grimly focused upon the matter with no resources being withheld. His spirits are high....he is looking forward to hearing of the President's plans for seeking out the perpetrators and is thankful that not only the perpetrators but those who provide aid and comfort and logistical support or harbor the terrorists are to be dealt with as well.
I shall not repeat the description he provided of the sights his work presents beyond saying it is most grim and heartbreaking. He and his team are seeing the results of the terrorists attack firsthand and close up and personal. They are filling the body bags. As he said..."This is no drill!"
I told him of this website and of some of the positions being put forth by various subsribers. He suggested a visit to the recovery site would cure the most liberal person. He described the scene as being just as gruesome as any other mass murder sight known to history if not worse because of the devastation inflicted by the crash.
He is right...perspective is controlled by your distance from the event.
God Bless their souls...saying a prayer for the dead and injured and those that lost loved ones.
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Heloplt, your attitude is typical helipilot attitude: you see as far away as you fly high. That means 1-2 miles forward. (apologize to other helicolleagues).
Your country is behaving as any other country in the world: you protect your interests in any/every situatuion.Problem is that you proclaimed that your interests can be thousands of miles away. You gave nothing to anyone unless it was your interest so ,please don't speak that you love whole world and you are patrons of the weaks. It makes me sick. Somebody planned this crime for years and you (I mean all of you) don't want to ask yourself why? Who hates us that much and why? Who spend that much energy and money to organise that crime.
When you bombed us I asked myself why. Are we so bad to turn against us whole world? Probably we are, but you didn't convince me.
The fact is that USA is the strongest country in the world but it also means that USA has the responsibility to keep this world working. You can't act as mad elephant in glasswork shop. Maybe it is time to review your policy. You can't rule the world by the power of weapon. Maybe you can but, than, you can expect same actions with nuclear powerplants as a target, virus of antrax, ebola or whatever. You are not world, you are part of the world, same as my country is, or any other country.
But, after all I hope that you will s***w up those bastards.
Your country is behaving as any other country in the world: you protect your interests in any/every situatuion.Problem is that you proclaimed that your interests can be thousands of miles away. You gave nothing to anyone unless it was your interest so ,please don't speak that you love whole world and you are patrons of the weaks. It makes me sick. Somebody planned this crime for years and you (I mean all of you) don't want to ask yourself why? Who hates us that much and why? Who spend that much energy and money to organise that crime.
When you bombed us I asked myself why. Are we so bad to turn against us whole world? Probably we are, but you didn't convince me.
The fact is that USA is the strongest country in the world but it also means that USA has the responsibility to keep this world working. You can't act as mad elephant in glasswork shop. Maybe it is time to review your policy. You can't rule the world by the power of weapon. Maybe you can but, than, you can expect same actions with nuclear powerplants as a target, virus of antrax, ebola or whatever. You are not world, you are part of the world, same as my country is, or any other country.
But, after all I hope that you will s***w up those bastards.
I am a figment of my own imagination
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A breath of fresh air, here here.
The tragedy that took place has effected us all in ways we have not yet begun to realise. Every single one of us has been touched in some way if not emotionaly certainly financialy, and it's going to get worse. There is a common enemy out there and every country has got some of them, and in the dark and in secret they hatch their nasty plots. The US having suffered the largest and most outrageous atrocity is preparing to do something. If everyone can for a minute stop scoring points and simply concentrate on the job in hand and support them we might stand a chance of getting some co-ordinated effort to stamp out some of the vermin
The tragedy that took place has effected us all in ways we have not yet begun to realise. Every single one of us has been touched in some way if not emotionaly certainly financialy, and it's going to get worse. There is a common enemy out there and every country has got some of them, and in the dark and in secret they hatch their nasty plots. The US having suffered the largest and most outrageous atrocity is preparing to do something. If everyone can for a minute stop scoring points and simply concentrate on the job in hand and support them we might stand a chance of getting some co-ordinated effort to stamp out some of the vermin
Lids,
Where do I "equate American foreign policy failures with the hideous use of fully fuelled airliners as missiles?" I hope you are not calling me an apologist for terrorists or terrorism. And since it seems a good point to do so, may I 'unequivocally and totally' condemn the barbarous, murderous, cowardly attacks on the USA last week, and can I place on record my complete support for any course of action which punished those directly responsible.
It should not be a question, BTW of countries standing up and being counted - unless we are to descend to the level of the terrorists we must be discriminating and accurate in our targeting. I wish we could have done more against the Provisional IRA and its active terrorist members, but would never have supported bombing Dublin, or targeting IRA-sympathetic nationalist civilians. There really are not so many 'rogue states' which can be targeted as states (Iraq maybe, North Korea if we could be certain they don't have the bomb, and the hateful Taliban regime in Afghanistan), and I believe that it is incumbent on the international community to attack the guilty, not some convenient scapegoats.
Heloplt
Over here we've been expecting about 500 British casualties, and naturally I'm in favour of punishing the guilty. But while I'd support any action against the terrorist groups responsible, I feel that enough innocent civilians have died already, and although those who committed these atrocities may have been Arabs and moslems that doesn't mean that I'm going to succumb to some kind of blood-lust for revenge against any arabs or moslems - even those who may actually approve of what these bastards have done. I hope the terrorists and the members of their organisations die horrible deaths, but I wish no harm on those I merely disagree with, however much I deplore their attitudes, and however much I despise and hate them. But wanting our revenge to be properly targeted, legal, and effective (and indeed wanting it to have widespread support even among moderate Arabs) is not 'fence-sitting'. No-one's ever accused me of being a left-wing Guardian reading Pansy, before, BTW!
Low & Slow
I'm not trying to justify anything. But if we refuse to acknowledge the source of this terrorism, how are we ever going to defeat it? Acknowledging where the Nazis came from and what caused their rise is not justifying their filthy policies, is it? Though had people recognised what gained them support, they might have been marginalised before they took the world to the brink of catastrophe.
Desperado
I'm not by any means suggesting that Israel has been the cause of all the ME's problems, just that its current policies make it the major obstacle in the way of peace now. The world has moved on since the 1970s, thanks to Sadat, Hussein, Arafat, Peres, and even Assad's son and successor, and peace with honour and security could so easily be achieved. Nor am I really saying that Israel's worse than South Africa was, only that there's little to choose between them.
I hope you are joking about revenge not justice, BTW, otherwise we become no better than terrorists ourselves.
Cyclic, Underpowered,
I hope you realise that those of us who've criticised the more lurid US patriotism and flag waving are gentle critics, who, when the chips are down, will support what our governments and our heroic servicemen do on our behalf. I hope that you will also realise that the discussion of the ME question is an attempt to be helpful.
If all you want is short-sighted revenge, ignore the question of Israel. US policy up to now has exacerbated the ME situation, and has even encouraged and provoked the terrorism we now need to destroy. If you want to solve the problem and also make that revenge 'palateable' to the Arab world, the US position on Palestine/Israel must change. Thus as part of the 'just war' that we all seem to want (me no less than anyone) against international terrorism, on both moral and practical grounds.
To put it at its most simple: We need to gently stroke the Islamic world, showing ourselves to be its friend and ally, while cheerfully kicking the $hit out of its more unacceptable terrorist parts.
X-Blunty,
I'll apologise for descending into point-scoring on America and its record - but there was some pretty major provocation in the form of some people telling us how much we owed them in a fairly arrogant, inaccurate and offensive manner. Fortunately the US and the Brits are good enough friends for such arguments to be of negligible import - and maybe each side needs reminding that the other has been a useful and valuable friend, and that each side has also occasionally let the other down.
Finally (and apologies for the over-long post) I'm not convinced that shutting up and presenting a united front is the right thing to do. I have a suspicion that such a course of action could lead to silence being taken as approval for any course of action - even one which might not live up to the standards of fairness and justice which the USA and Britain have generally been famous for. It could also mean that we will fail to seize an opportunity to correct more than one wrong.
Where do I "equate American foreign policy failures with the hideous use of fully fuelled airliners as missiles?" I hope you are not calling me an apologist for terrorists or terrorism. And since it seems a good point to do so, may I 'unequivocally and totally' condemn the barbarous, murderous, cowardly attacks on the USA last week, and can I place on record my complete support for any course of action which punished those directly responsible.
It should not be a question, BTW of countries standing up and being counted - unless we are to descend to the level of the terrorists we must be discriminating and accurate in our targeting. I wish we could have done more against the Provisional IRA and its active terrorist members, but would never have supported bombing Dublin, or targeting IRA-sympathetic nationalist civilians. There really are not so many 'rogue states' which can be targeted as states (Iraq maybe, North Korea if we could be certain they don't have the bomb, and the hateful Taliban regime in Afghanistan), and I believe that it is incumbent on the international community to attack the guilty, not some convenient scapegoats.
Heloplt
Over here we've been expecting about 500 British casualties, and naturally I'm in favour of punishing the guilty. But while I'd support any action against the terrorist groups responsible, I feel that enough innocent civilians have died already, and although those who committed these atrocities may have been Arabs and moslems that doesn't mean that I'm going to succumb to some kind of blood-lust for revenge against any arabs or moslems - even those who may actually approve of what these bastards have done. I hope the terrorists and the members of their organisations die horrible deaths, but I wish no harm on those I merely disagree with, however much I deplore their attitudes, and however much I despise and hate them. But wanting our revenge to be properly targeted, legal, and effective (and indeed wanting it to have widespread support even among moderate Arabs) is not 'fence-sitting'. No-one's ever accused me of being a left-wing Guardian reading Pansy, before, BTW!
Low & Slow
I'm not trying to justify anything. But if we refuse to acknowledge the source of this terrorism, how are we ever going to defeat it? Acknowledging where the Nazis came from and what caused their rise is not justifying their filthy policies, is it? Though had people recognised what gained them support, they might have been marginalised before they took the world to the brink of catastrophe.
Desperado
I'm not by any means suggesting that Israel has been the cause of all the ME's problems, just that its current policies make it the major obstacle in the way of peace now. The world has moved on since the 1970s, thanks to Sadat, Hussein, Arafat, Peres, and even Assad's son and successor, and peace with honour and security could so easily be achieved. Nor am I really saying that Israel's worse than South Africa was, only that there's little to choose between them.
I hope you are joking about revenge not justice, BTW, otherwise we become no better than terrorists ourselves.
Cyclic, Underpowered,
I hope you realise that those of us who've criticised the more lurid US patriotism and flag waving are gentle critics, who, when the chips are down, will support what our governments and our heroic servicemen do on our behalf. I hope that you will also realise that the discussion of the ME question is an attempt to be helpful.
If all you want is short-sighted revenge, ignore the question of Israel. US policy up to now has exacerbated the ME situation, and has even encouraged and provoked the terrorism we now need to destroy. If you want to solve the problem and also make that revenge 'palateable' to the Arab world, the US position on Palestine/Israel must change. Thus as part of the 'just war' that we all seem to want (me no less than anyone) against international terrorism, on both moral and practical grounds.
To put it at its most simple: We need to gently stroke the Islamic world, showing ourselves to be its friend and ally, while cheerfully kicking the $hit out of its more unacceptable terrorist parts.
X-Blunty,
I'll apologise for descending into point-scoring on America and its record - but there was some pretty major provocation in the form of some people telling us how much we owed them in a fairly arrogant, inaccurate and offensive manner. Fortunately the US and the Brits are good enough friends for such arguments to be of negligible import - and maybe each side needs reminding that the other has been a useful and valuable friend, and that each side has also occasionally let the other down.
Finally (and apologies for the over-long post) I'm not convinced that shutting up and presenting a united front is the right thing to do. I have a suspicion that such a course of action could lead to silence being taken as approval for any course of action - even one which might not live up to the standards of fairness and justice which the USA and Britain have generally been famous for. It could also mean that we will fail to seize an opportunity to correct more than one wrong.
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Jacko...all I opined is that you might retire to a smoke filled room and soft chair to peruse a Guardian newspaper....never even dreamt you might be light in the loafers....but liberal leanings and all...well heck...politics does make strange bedfellows I guess!
I am quite sure the entire scheme of international relations and the way Terrorism is being viewed by every nation is under review. There is no doubt that our leaders shall take a very measured approach to what we do and shall seek the broadest consensus amongst friendly nations as is possible. There is no doubt the chaps in the front office are concerned with causes as well as methods and capabilities of the terrorists. It would be overly simplistic to think our state department has not done very carefully thought out risk/gain analysis on our support of Israel. Take yourself back to the Gulf War and how we managed to restrain the Israeli response to the Scud attacks. That was a very close call...if the Israelis had gotten involved..the coalition could very well have come apart.
I maintain the situation we have here today is quite similar to the years leading up to World War II. If we had stood up to Hitler earlier we very well could have avoided that war altogether. Today , the real threat and concern is not the WTC attack but rather the concern that a terrorist group will one day have real weapons of mass destruction either nukes or bio/chem weapons. If they do, and can remain organized to the degree they are now, the Western world is really in for disaster. I submit that the driving reason behind this new approach to terrorism is to try to set that danger back as much as possible. There shall always be terrorists...as long as there is political/economical strife amongst the world's populations. There are times I wish I lived in the Falklands or on the southern end of New Zealand when I think what nuclear war/terrorist attacks with nukes can be like.
I am quite sure the entire scheme of international relations and the way Terrorism is being viewed by every nation is under review. There is no doubt that our leaders shall take a very measured approach to what we do and shall seek the broadest consensus amongst friendly nations as is possible. There is no doubt the chaps in the front office are concerned with causes as well as methods and capabilities of the terrorists. It would be overly simplistic to think our state department has not done very carefully thought out risk/gain analysis on our support of Israel. Take yourself back to the Gulf War and how we managed to restrain the Israeli response to the Scud attacks. That was a very close call...if the Israelis had gotten involved..the coalition could very well have come apart.
I maintain the situation we have here today is quite similar to the years leading up to World War II. If we had stood up to Hitler earlier we very well could have avoided that war altogether. Today , the real threat and concern is not the WTC attack but rather the concern that a terrorist group will one day have real weapons of mass destruction either nukes or bio/chem weapons. If they do, and can remain organized to the degree they are now, the Western world is really in for disaster. I submit that the driving reason behind this new approach to terrorism is to try to set that danger back as much as possible. There shall always be terrorists...as long as there is political/economical strife amongst the world's populations. There are times I wish I lived in the Falklands or on the southern end of New Zealand when I think what nuclear war/terrorist attacks with nukes can be like.
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Hmm... could be taking things off on a tangent but was re-reading a book called "Under a Sickle Moon" last night, based on an English journo's trip through Afghanistan in 84.
One thing that especially struck me was that anytime the locals tried to set up a mosque *or a school* the "Shuravi" knocked it over, presumably with Hind or Frogfoot.
People call the Taleban ignorant, but the Soviet-backed regime obviously had the aim of keeping these people as ignorant as possible. Thus all they could fall back on was oral tradition as expressed through their religion. The disgrace that is the border refugee camps in areas like Peshawar and the minimal real support given to the mujahedin means they have no reason to trust "the international community" since said community has done ****** all for them.
My point is: instead of Mr. Putin sending his condolences to the US, why doesn't he apologise for his country's assistence in fcuking up the country when OBL is now hiding? And shouldn't the "international community" think very carefully about what attacking *any* target other than a bloody obvious terrorist camp [not one that looks like a pharmaceutical factory] would do to entrench the Taleban, as this attack has entrenched GWB?
I'm NOT saying, don't go get him. I'm just saying, they have their reasons not to want to be helpful.
One thing that especially struck me was that anytime the locals tried to set up a mosque *or a school* the "Shuravi" knocked it over, presumably with Hind or Frogfoot.
People call the Taleban ignorant, but the Soviet-backed regime obviously had the aim of keeping these people as ignorant as possible. Thus all they could fall back on was oral tradition as expressed through their religion. The disgrace that is the border refugee camps in areas like Peshawar and the minimal real support given to the mujahedin means they have no reason to trust "the international community" since said community has done ****** all for them.
My point is: instead of Mr. Putin sending his condolences to the US, why doesn't he apologise for his country's assistence in fcuking up the country when OBL is now hiding? And shouldn't the "international community" think very carefully about what attacking *any* target other than a bloody obvious terrorist camp [not one that looks like a pharmaceutical factory] would do to entrench the Taleban, as this attack has entrenched GWB?
I'm NOT saying, don't go get him. I'm just saying, they have their reasons not to want to be helpful.
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I hear from some friends in Ireland that Saturday 15th has seen an extraordinary amount of US military traffic cross Irish airspace today travelling from the west. From my own point of view I hope and pray that they are sucessful in their missions and pray that God will take care of them. Best of Luck !!
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Jacko,
"To put it at its most simple: We need to gently stroke the Islamic world, showing ourselves to be its friend and ally, while cheerfully kicking the $hit out of its more unacceptable terrorist parts."
I believe that this is exactly what we will do, so sit back and have a little faith, my friend. I'll bet you a fiver.
"To put it at its most simple: We need to gently stroke the Islamic world, showing ourselves to be its friend and ally, while cheerfully kicking the $hit out of its more unacceptable terrorist parts."
I believe that this is exactly what we will do, so sit back and have a little faith, my friend. I'll bet you a fiver.
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Reports in todays Telegraph suggest that Americans are not 'depending' on support from France or Germany and that Britain is the only nation that will stand shoulder to shoulder with the US when the going gets tough. For Britmil personnel who are not already on exercise sounds like a spot of bagpacking might be in order. I for one believe that America will commit ground troops and I also believe that if there is such a thing as a just war this is the one.
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lids said:
I for one believe that America will commit ground troops and I also believe that if there is such a thing as a just war this is the one.
....and I believe that like the Soviets before us, they would get their arses kicked. What have Yugoslavia v Germany and Afghanistan V Russia got in common? No not the world cup you fool! In both cases the locals won due to it being their patch requiring their mentality to survive. You could say the same about Viet Nam. An SF only war may have a chance backed up by significant air power without the restraints of Hanoi. A large ground force would keep undertakers nicely in business.
Wonder where all the spy satellites are parked at present? A needle in a haystack, no a pain in an enormous ****.
Anyone know what "toys" the Taliban have to hand? Stinger would ruin someones day!
I for one believe that America will commit ground troops and I also believe that if there is such a thing as a just war this is the one.
....and I believe that like the Soviets before us, they would get their arses kicked. What have Yugoslavia v Germany and Afghanistan V Russia got in common? No not the world cup you fool! In both cases the locals won due to it being their patch requiring their mentality to survive. You could say the same about Viet Nam. An SF only war may have a chance backed up by significant air power without the restraints of Hanoi. A large ground force would keep undertakers nicely in business.
Wonder where all the spy satellites are parked at present? A needle in a haystack, no a pain in an enormous ****.
Anyone know what "toys" the Taliban have to hand? Stinger would ruin someones day!
Yozzer, an interesting point about Stingers.
As I'm sure most of you know, the CIA supplied the Mujahedeen with hundreds of Stingers during the war against the Soviet Union. Indeed the SAS trained the Muj in their use here in the UK. After the war there were over 300 unaccounted for and the USA has been doing its best to find/track/steal or buy them back ever since in an effort to make sure they don't fall into the wrong hands.
Bottom line is, they are still missing.
As I'm sure most of you know, the CIA supplied the Mujahedeen with hundreds of Stingers during the war against the Soviet Union. Indeed the SAS trained the Muj in their use here in the UK. After the war there were over 300 unaccounted for and the USA has been doing its best to find/track/steal or buy them back ever since in an effort to make sure they don't fall into the wrong hands.
Bottom line is, they are still missing.
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OK, so what are we (collective) going to do?
There is a very real chance that within the next six months, some of the authoritative members of this forum (ie the real FJ jocks) will no longer be with us following them giving their lives in the name of defeating terrorism.
What WILL win this war is the very finest intelligence, which can result in those responsible for terrorism in whatever theatre being targeted and neutralised, whether that be via internment or more permananent means. The world has to wake up to what one country's definition of terrorism might not be anothers ( IRA/Chechnya/Israel for a few examples where opinions differ)However, wherever it lies there must be global and unequivocal support for the actions taken.
Air (and maybe land and sea)travel itself will have to change for ever.Having just spent eight hours on A/T duties at a small regional airport this morning, I think we are going to have to adapt the El Al model of security for all but the very smallest of airline flights. Although international airports in Europe are prety much 'locked down', regionals remain vulnerable and present a real threat for the launch of a similar, albeit less 'biblical' atrocity.
CAP may well also become more prevalant, and pax on civil airliners may have to accept that if there is the slightest of doubt, an AMRAAM may decide.
We are in a different world following tuesday. If you had invented that scenario on the bar on monday, you would have been laughed at. See how many more you can make up and you start to realise how vulnerable the world really is.
To the dead, the injured and bereaved, my heart grieves for you and with you, but I am confident some good will fall from your grief.
[ 16 September 2001: Message edited by: STANDTO ]
There is a very real chance that within the next six months, some of the authoritative members of this forum (ie the real FJ jocks) will no longer be with us following them giving their lives in the name of defeating terrorism.
What WILL win this war is the very finest intelligence, which can result in those responsible for terrorism in whatever theatre being targeted and neutralised, whether that be via internment or more permananent means. The world has to wake up to what one country's definition of terrorism might not be anothers ( IRA/Chechnya/Israel for a few examples where opinions differ)However, wherever it lies there must be global and unequivocal support for the actions taken.
Air (and maybe land and sea)travel itself will have to change for ever.Having just spent eight hours on A/T duties at a small regional airport this morning, I think we are going to have to adapt the El Al model of security for all but the very smallest of airline flights. Although international airports in Europe are prety much 'locked down', regionals remain vulnerable and present a real threat for the launch of a similar, albeit less 'biblical' atrocity.
CAP may well also become more prevalant, and pax on civil airliners may have to accept that if there is the slightest of doubt, an AMRAAM may decide.
We are in a different world following tuesday. If you had invented that scenario on the bar on monday, you would have been laughed at. See how many more you can make up and you start to realise how vulnerable the world really is.
To the dead, the injured and bereaved, my heart grieves for you and with you, but I am confident some good will fall from your grief.
[ 16 September 2001: Message edited by: STANDTO ]
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The Sovs pulled out of Afghanistan during the winter of 89. Presumably the CIA stopped supplying the Mujies with Stinger about then; so can we not assume that the 300 rounds left behind are well past their sell-by date? What sort of air force has Bin Laden got that would justify the deployment of FJs? Surely, if you are going chasing terrorists around the desert, you need highly mobile SF on the ground supported by gunships, plus bags of air transport and recce. Even then it will be a logistic nightmare, without complicating the problem with unnecessary FJs.
Historically (with aplogies to those who feel that history is irrelevant)the Brits had big problems in the 19th century when they tried to occupy Afghanistan; but punitive expeditions were quite successful.
I admire the Yanks, warts and all, and spent much time explaining points of mutual misunderstanding to Rotarians and similar fora during my exchange tours. I have already expressed my sympathies in private e-mails to my many American friends. I feel the time for rhetoric is past and the questions now are whose ass are we going to kick - where, when and how.
Historically (with aplogies to those who feel that history is irrelevant)the Brits had big problems in the 19th century when they tried to occupy Afghanistan; but punitive expeditions were quite successful.
I admire the Yanks, warts and all, and spent much time explaining points of mutual misunderstanding to Rotarians and similar fora during my exchange tours. I have already expressed my sympathies in private e-mails to my many American friends. I feel the time for rhetoric is past and the questions now are whose ass are we going to kick - where, when and how.
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There is no reason why a properly planned SF type op will not be successful if proceeded by some (a lot of) accurate bombing. There is a strong opposition group to the Taliban that is willing to help (their leader has just been killed by a suicide bomber) and there are plenty of battle hardened Russian gunship crews that know the terrain (If Putin is serious about helping out) Do not forget that the Taliban is not popular in Afghanistan, could be that the locals do not want to fight the West. Bottom line is too many countries have been afraid of terrorists in the recent past, this is a rare chance to put aside Queensbury rules and take them out.