mil jet 'break' landing
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mil jet 'break' landing
Was watching the mil jets land at CYYZ today after the airshow.
Come in to final at 500-1000 AGL (guessing) at 200kts++.
Halfway down the runway, 89.999 degree bank back to close in downwind !!!
Descending turn down to final, "normal landing".
Impressive. ... specially when done 2 or 3 at a time. Snowbirds, 9 planes , 3 sets of 3 landing side by side.
Question: technical / operational reasons for this ?
Or just another part of the airshow ?
Mike
Mike
Come in to final at 500-1000 AGL (guessing) at 200kts++.
Halfway down the runway, 89.999 degree bank back to close in downwind !!!
Descending turn down to final, "normal landing".
Impressive. ... specially when done 2 or 3 at a time. Snowbirds, 9 planes , 3 sets of 3 landing side by side.
Question: technical / operational reasons for this ?
Or just another part of the airshow ?
Mike
Mike
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Not sure, they tend to do it rather a lot so I suspect it wasn't just the airshow. I always thought it was designed to cause maximum disruption to all other airfield operators (particularly me!!)
Can't quite work out however, why you need to do a break in a PC9/(Tucano).....
Can't quite work out however, why you need to do a break in a PC9/(Tucano).....
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the buzz and break apch was developed by the royal flying corps in ww1.....but was more of a 'flyover'
the intent was to allow commanders to literally count how many acft came home (remember no radios etc)
as faster acft were developed the b+b became the fastest way to get a high speed acft onto the ground. its major benefit is in getting formations onto the ground quickly...imagine your 9 snowbirds all trying to join via base or final.....fricken chaos!
tactically it also means you can maintain a high 'combat speed' until literally overhead your own defences; admittedly since the development of stand-off weapons this is rather defunct.
i dont know the canuks rules but ours are: 500ft @ 360kts (although 250ft at 420+ is ok too!)
the intent was to allow commanders to literally count how many acft came home (remember no radios etc)
as faster acft were developed the b+b became the fastest way to get a high speed acft onto the ground. its major benefit is in getting formations onto the ground quickly...imagine your 9 snowbirds all trying to join via base or final.....fricken chaos!
tactically it also means you can maintain a high 'combat speed' until literally overhead your own defences; admittedly since the development of stand-off weapons this is rather defunct.
i dont know the canuks rules but ours are: 500ft @ 360kts (although 250ft at 420+ is ok too!)
500 ft at 360 KIAS?? That's a bit 'Womens' Auxiliary Balloon Corps' for a FJ?? What do you fly, the JP6 (otherwise known as the Hawk)??
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Try Gibralter. If the road is open (it crosses the runway) then no breaks below 200 ft. If the road is closed don't go supersonic and don't go into Spain! Yee Haa.
Lets everyone know it is RAF Gibralter, but we let the civvies use it as well.
Lets everyone know it is RAF Gibralter, but we let the civvies use it as well.
I thought that's what you took off with?
I was banned from VRIABs at my UAS by the utter ******** of a boss we had at the time. He didn't like 'all levers forward' at 100ft and the break overhead his office, idle power, steep turn and pop it on the RW26 threshold numbers to turn off at the short exit. Well, at night at any rate!
I was banned from VRIABs at my UAS by the utter ******** of a boss we had at the time. He didn't like 'all levers forward' at 100ft and the break overhead his office, idle power, steep turn and pop it on the RW26 threshold numbers to turn off at the short exit. Well, at night at any rate!
And that's when he was a stude.....
Once witnessed a Russian multi-ship run and break, where alternate jets broke into LH and RH circuits. Staggering, and apparently deliberate!
Once witnessed a Russian multi-ship run and break, where alternate jets broke into LH and RH circuits. Staggering, and apparently deliberate!
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I was at Pearson too watching the landings and takeoffs, alternating between 24R (all the landings and breaks) and 23 (takeoffs).
Well, in terms of rules, I have no idea. But I was sitting beside the firehall today, when the Hawk literally flew in front of a AC DC-9 in position on 24R, at no more than 150 ft off the ground, before he broke. The DC-9 took off, before he came back to land. Very impressive.
The Transall C-160 was the funniest one. Had the smallest turning radius, did his break and land within one square mile, I'm guessing.
The Tornado pilots were a bit wimpier, though. More like a thousand feet when they did the flyby... (Us spectators are picky.)
Two other things of note:
a) What happened to Snowbird 9? Made an emergency landing, and because I was right beside the firehall, got treated to a loud dose of sirens which blocked out my radio. The plane was alright, though, seemingly, though the firetrucks decided to follow it to the de-icing pad anyway.
b) The Thunderbirds takeoff run was quite spectacular. 4-2-2 formation (kinda like Football), full afterburner...amazing stuff.
[ 04 September 2001: Message edited by: AffableGuy ]
Well, in terms of rules, I have no idea. But I was sitting beside the firehall today, when the Hawk literally flew in front of a AC DC-9 in position on 24R, at no more than 150 ft off the ground, before he broke. The DC-9 took off, before he came back to land. Very impressive.
The Transall C-160 was the funniest one. Had the smallest turning radius, did his break and land within one square mile, I'm guessing.
The Tornado pilots were a bit wimpier, though. More like a thousand feet when they did the flyby...
(Us spectators are picky.)Two other things of note:
a) What happened to Snowbird 9? Made an emergency landing, and because I was right beside the firehall, got treated to a loud dose of sirens which blocked out my radio. The plane was alright, though, seemingly, though the firetrucks decided to follow it to the de-icing pad anyway.
b) The Thunderbirds takeoff run was quite spectacular. 4-2-2 formation (kinda like Football), full afterburner...amazing stuff.
[ 04 September 2001: Message edited by: AffableGuy ]
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Affable,
Ya, I saw the Tbird takeoff, were you in the cargo parking lot ?
I heard on my scanner that they were initally cleared to 23,000 after takeoff, and the controller was asking if they wanted higher than that. Didn't hear the reply though.
It was so hazy, that I lost sight of them after takeoff though !
(Normal clearance is to 5,000. I've heard late at night when departure has cleared a plane to FL230, but never from takeoff).
Too bad they could'nt clear them to FL40 or something, so they could do the 'rocket straight up takeeoff '
Heard on the news tonight that SBird#9 apparrently had some kind of vibration in the cockpit.
Mike
[ 04 September 2001: Message edited by: mstram ]
Ya, I saw the Tbird takeoff, were you in the cargo parking lot ?
I heard on my scanner that they were initally cleared to 23,000 after takeoff, and the controller was asking if they wanted higher than that. Didn't hear the reply though.
It was so hazy, that I lost sight of them after takeoff though !
(Normal clearance is to 5,000. I've heard late at night when departure has cleared a plane to FL230, but never from takeoff).
Too bad they could'nt clear them to FL40 or something, so they could do the 'rocket straight up takeeoff '
Heard on the news tonight that SBird#9 apparrently had some kind of vibration in the cockpit.
Mike
[ 04 September 2001: Message edited by: mstram ]
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On the radio, I heard they were cleared to FL230, then 270. But by then, they were long gone. No spectacular verticals...
In fact, they tried to contact Toronto Centre, and no one responded...odd.
In fact, they tried to contact Toronto Centre, and no one responded...odd.
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The Red Arrows did a spectacular run and break at Muscat in Oman last year, breaking from a diamond 9 loop into a bomburst with left and right breaks. On the runway the Hawks kept to the left or right side depending on their break, and kept the middle of the runway as a fast lane. The last Hawk down had brake problems and had to use the fast lane, going between all the preceding Hawks as it took off again to wait for a clear runway. I think they should keep it in their show!
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The tactical aim of the fighter break and stream landing used to be to get the formation on the ground as quickly as possible for refuelling/rearming. The section approached the airfield at operational speed in low level battle formation ( deeply echelonned finger four)and the leader broke over his No 2. Approaching the airfield unnecessarily fast entailed more time to kill speed and so took longer.
In my time, for normal purposes, the section would approach the airfield at 360-400 KIAS in echelon starboard (for a LH circuit) at 50 ft (for a single section). At the caravan the leader broke left, reefing it up at about 4g, popped his brakes, power off, 30% flap at 200KIAS, brakes In and gear down at 175 K/1000ft, continuing into a curved approach feeding down more flap as required, not touching the throttles and, ideally, rolling straight and putting it on the numbers at 110K. Nos 2,3 & 4 followed him at precisely one second intervals, which gave them a short downwind leg. The idea was NOT to have to use much power, and so give the chaps behind a rough ride. The other sections were close line astern to the lead section and, if people kept their fingers out, it was possible to have 16 on the runway at once. I seem to remember 111 (the Black Arrows) had 20 Hunters on the Farnborough runway at once in 1957. Some squadrons used a fan break, using increasing turn radii to space thmeselves out, but I don't think that looked so smart. Even spacing downwind and on finals was the tell-tale whether the fellas knew their stuff (or not).
In my time, for normal purposes, the section would approach the airfield at 360-400 KIAS in echelon starboard (for a LH circuit) at 50 ft (for a single section). At the caravan the leader broke left, reefing it up at about 4g, popped his brakes, power off, 30% flap at 200KIAS, brakes In and gear down at 175 K/1000ft, continuing into a curved approach feeding down more flap as required, not touching the throttles and, ideally, rolling straight and putting it on the numbers at 110K. Nos 2,3 & 4 followed him at precisely one second intervals, which gave them a short downwind leg. The idea was NOT to have to use much power, and so give the chaps behind a rough ride. The other sections were close line astern to the lead section and, if people kept their fingers out, it was possible to have 16 on the runway at once. I seem to remember 111 (the Black Arrows) had 20 Hunters on the Farnborough runway at once in 1957. Some squadrons used a fan break, using increasing turn radii to space thmeselves out, but I don't think that looked so smart. Even spacing downwind and on finals was the tell-tale whether the fellas knew their stuff (or not).
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Formation breaks to multiple runways are both fun and can be valuable learning experiences. Figuring out how to do what you want and not getting hammered. Tacan to missed approach transition to VFR downwind translates to tacan above gear and flap speed (don’t legally have to configure as no intent to land) down to missed approach HAT, followed by an expeditious turn to down followed by a climb to pattern altitude then configure to land. Also applicable precision approaches or random lows (not that we have really trained for those lately).
Be advised to stay away from homefield or adults eyes. While one can certainly weather the a** chewing the direct order prohibiting such training can put a damper future endeavors. Pick your opportunities
Be advised to stay away from homefield or adults eyes. While one can certainly weather the a** chewing the direct order prohibiting such training can put a damper future endeavors. Pick your opportunities