Chinook - Still Hitting Back 3 (Merged)
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Arkroyal
With regard to your 1st point, may I refer you to Boeings document:
8-7D20-DS S-03 06, Enclosure 4
Dated: June 18,2002
Mull of Kintyre -Analysis of Available Data
This suggests to me that they selected the next waypoint while not steering away from the landmass at that point, if they were experiencing any difficulties, they would hardly be expected to be bothering with inputting changes to their route navigation.
With regard to your 2nd point:
With respect, the simplistic IMC vs VFR argument may not be appropriate here; the regular route was, I believe, a low level approach to the Mull with a close in turn, thereafter handrailing up the coast, perfectly reasonable for a comfortable flight in the prevailing conditions in the area that is at low level where visibility was good.
The only problem here is that the Mull would often have a localized mist due to the prevailing wind forcing moist air up over the Mull often obscuring detail that a pilot would need to judge his distance off. This is further exacerbated in this case as the approach direction is very much end on to the headland hindering spatial orientation between, say, a couple of laterally displaced large topographical features. Provided that the pilot can judge his distance off, then there would be no problem flying VFR (a point made somewhere in one of the enquiries) but at the speed in question, how could he do that safely? If he could not see sufficient ground detail, he would have to use the TANS (which was ignored in this case) or play it very safe and turn away well clear (try flying close to a large cloud as opposed to a small one that one can see around). It would be a shame to not be able to come close in for, say, operational reasons, in these circumstances for want of a simple, reliable beacon that could have been placed for the convenience of just such (regular?) flights at little expense.
Of course, this could be simply addressed by others who flew such flights hence my previous post.
Your closing remark ..
The point is, the evidence required to find negligence simply does not exist, in the same way that there is no evidence to prove the opposite.
No evidence = No Known Cause = cleared pilots. ..
Misses the point that there is a lot more to this tragic event than the loss of those on board if there was any foul play there was an opportunity for foul play if a local navaid was used and this must be addressed.
ZD576s TACAN CU was set to ch107 (if the Boeing report is correct in this regard) I cannot identify anything relevant on any frequency listings in the public domain does this channel ring a bell with anyone reading this?
With regard to your 1st point, may I refer you to Boeings document:
8-7D20-DS S-03 06, Enclosure 4
Dated: June 18,2002
Mull of Kintyre -Analysis of Available Data
This suggests to me that they selected the next waypoint while not steering away from the landmass at that point, if they were experiencing any difficulties, they would hardly be expected to be bothering with inputting changes to their route navigation.
With regard to your 2nd point:
With respect, the simplistic IMC vs VFR argument may not be appropriate here; the regular route was, I believe, a low level approach to the Mull with a close in turn, thereafter handrailing up the coast, perfectly reasonable for a comfortable flight in the prevailing conditions in the area that is at low level where visibility was good.
The only problem here is that the Mull would often have a localized mist due to the prevailing wind forcing moist air up over the Mull often obscuring detail that a pilot would need to judge his distance off. This is further exacerbated in this case as the approach direction is very much end on to the headland hindering spatial orientation between, say, a couple of laterally displaced large topographical features. Provided that the pilot can judge his distance off, then there would be no problem flying VFR (a point made somewhere in one of the enquiries) but at the speed in question, how could he do that safely? If he could not see sufficient ground detail, he would have to use the TANS (which was ignored in this case) or play it very safe and turn away well clear (try flying close to a large cloud as opposed to a small one that one can see around). It would be a shame to not be able to come close in for, say, operational reasons, in these circumstances for want of a simple, reliable beacon that could have been placed for the convenience of just such (regular?) flights at little expense.
Of course, this could be simply addressed by others who flew such flights hence my previous post.
Your closing remark ..
The point is, the evidence required to find negligence simply does not exist, in the same way that there is no evidence to prove the opposite.
No evidence = No Known Cause = cleared pilots. ..
Misses the point that there is a lot more to this tragic event than the loss of those on board if there was any foul play there was an opportunity for foul play if a local navaid was used and this must be addressed.
ZD576s TACAN CU was set to ch107 (if the Boeing report is correct in this regard) I cannot identify anything relevant on any frequency listings in the public domain does this channel ring a bell with anyone reading this?
Machrihanish VOR/DME (MAC) is on 116.0 MHz. To receive the DME element on a TACAN receiver, you need to set Channel 107.
However, the old MAZ TACAN used to be on Ch 107 before it was closed down and a DME incorporated into the MAC VOR system.
Now, according to my calculations, the location of MAZ (55:25:59N, 005:39:02W) was 275.2 deg True and 2.03 nm from the location of MAC (55:25:59N, 005:42:35W). So, if you read your distance as, say, 4 miles west of what you thought was MAZ, you would, in fact, be only 1.97 miles from where it used to be if you were actually tuned to the MAC VOR/DME.....
Is this relevant?
However, the old MAZ TACAN used to be on Ch 107 before it was closed down and a DME incorporated into the MAC VOR system.
Now, according to my calculations, the location of MAZ (55:25:59N, 005:39:02W) was 275.2 deg True and 2.03 nm from the location of MAC (55:25:59N, 005:42:35W). So, if you read your distance as, say, 4 miles west of what you thought was MAZ, you would, in fact, be only 1.97 miles from where it used to be if you were actually tuned to the MAC VOR/DME.....
Is this relevant?
Last edited by BEagle; 19th Jan 2004 at 05:25.
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Hi everyone,
65 names so far.
Thank you to everyone for your efforts and to the MPs who have supported the EDM.
If your MP has signed, perhaps consider sending them an E-mail thanking them for their support (it means a lot to them to be recognised for doing something).
If your MP hasn't signed, please consider contacting them and asking them to do so. It does make a difference.
As always, my thanks and best wishes to you all.
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
65 names so far.
Thank you to everyone for your efforts and to the MPs who have supported the EDM.
If your MP has signed, perhaps consider sending them an E-mail thanking them for their support (it means a lot to them to be recognised for doing something).
If your MP hasn't signed, please consider contacting them and asking them to do so. It does make a difference.
As always, my thanks and best wishes to you all.
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
Just a numbered other
Walter
Sorry to be so long getting back
1 I disagreed that they were known to be in control past the waypoint. I agree that at waypoint change on TANS they were in control
2 Having done the route myself, I'd agree with your method of flying it. That's why I'm sure they were VMC in sight of the mull at waypoint change. My point is that what happened subsequently will never be established.
3
Not quite sure of your thrust. There is no navaid which would have allowed flight to continue without visual contact. Had the crew been using one then they would indeed have been negligent. The conspiracy theory regarding foul play with a local navaid is spurious, and I stand by my comment as exactly the point which needs to be driven home in order to reverse this finding. Going down the route of fanciful theories will only muddy the water.
Sorry to be so long getting back
1 I disagreed that they were known to be in control past the waypoint. I agree that at waypoint change on TANS they were in control
2 Having done the route myself, I'd agree with your method of flying it. That's why I'm sure they were VMC in sight of the mull at waypoint change. My point is that what happened subsequently will never be established.
3
Your closing remark
..
The point is, the evidence required to find negligence simply does not exist, in the same way that there is no evidence to prove the opposite.
No evidence = No Known Cause = cleared pilots. ..
Misses the point that there is a lot more to this tragic event than the loss of those on board if there was any foul play there was an opportunity for foul play if a local navaid was used and this must be addressed.
The point is, the evidence required to find negligence simply does not exist, in the same way that there is no evidence to prove the opposite.
No evidence = No Known Cause = cleared pilots. ..
Misses the point that there is a lot more to this tragic event than the loss of those on board if there was any foul play there was an opportunity for foul play if a local navaid was used and this must be addressed.
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My MP, Jonathan Djanogly, has replied to my e-mail request for him to support the cause:
Good to have that support - gives one a warm and fuzzy feeling that eventually we're going to win. It would be very satisfying to have the guys' reputations restored and the faces of those 2 arrogant b******s rubbed in the mire...
As you know already, I believe that the causes of the crash need fuller investigation. I will sign EDM 371 and my Conservative colleagues on the defence team will also sign it.
Thank you again for writing and for drawing this important EDM to my attention. I will also forward your support to the Ministry of Defence in order that your views can be taken into account and will write again when I have a response from the Minister.
Thank you again for writing and for drawing this important EDM to my attention. I will also forward your support to the Ministry of Defence in order that your views can be taken into account and will write again when I have a response from the Minister.
Well, my MP has yet to sign, despite his earlier comment. So I have sent him a polite nudge.
I'm not particularly interested in what becomes of Their Airships or their reputations, more that the thoroughly unjust verdict, attributing blame when no positive proof has ever been established, is overturned.
It's not often that Jeremy Paxman is fazed - but the unbelievable arrogance of 'Ba$tard Bill' stunned even Paxo....
I'm not particularly interested in what becomes of Their Airships or their reputations, more that the thoroughly unjust verdict, attributing blame when no positive proof has ever been established, is overturned.
It's not often that Jeremy Paxman is fazed - but the unbelievable arrogance of 'Ba$tard Bill' stunned even Paxo....
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Mark Oaten, Lib Dem, Winchester, signed the earlier EDM; I e-mailed him to urge that he sign the present one, but no response to date. Any Prooners in the Winchester constituency might like to e-mail him to urge his continued support...
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Hi everyone.
As you all know, this year will be the tenth anniversary of the crash. There will be a private memorial service on the Mull on 2 June for families and close friends.
However, the campaign group are considering holding a memorial service somewhere in London, thereby making it more accessible to people who would like to pay their respects. It will be a short memorial service for all who were lost and not just for Rick and Jon.
It will take a bit of planning so I'm just using this thread to guage the level (if any) of interest in attending. Would you be interested in attending? You can either e-mail me or post a reply.
It will be either on, or as near to 2 June as we can get it and will (hopefully) be around 6.00pm, the time of the crash.
The campaign is still going strong with many questions still going into the MoD. The EDM currently stands at 71 signatures - thank you. One piece of news is that Mrs Bellchambers, from D Sec Air, has taken early retirement. May I publicly thank her for all her responses and letters, and wish her a very long and happy retirement. To whoever takes her place - get used to the Irritating Sod being around
My very best, as always, to you all.
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
As you all know, this year will be the tenth anniversary of the crash. There will be a private memorial service on the Mull on 2 June for families and close friends.
However, the campaign group are considering holding a memorial service somewhere in London, thereby making it more accessible to people who would like to pay their respects. It will be a short memorial service for all who were lost and not just for Rick and Jon.
It will take a bit of planning so I'm just using this thread to guage the level (if any) of interest in attending. Would you be interested in attending? You can either e-mail me or post a reply.
It will be either on, or as near to 2 June as we can get it and will (hopefully) be around 6.00pm, the time of the crash.
The campaign is still going strong with many questions still going into the MoD. The EDM currently stands at 71 signatures - thank you. One piece of news is that Mrs Bellchambers, from D Sec Air, has taken early retirement. May I publicly thank her for all her responses and letters, and wish her a very long and happy retirement. To whoever takes her place - get used to the Irritating Sod being around
My very best, as always, to you all.
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
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Brian, excellent idea!
I know the formal service on the Mull is strictly for families only, however I intend to be somewhere close by at the appointed hour.
I have to say that the idea of a service somewhere more accessible is a very good plan. Not only for people with personal reasons for celebrating the lives of ALL of those on board, but also to demonstrate that this is not forgotten.
We will get justice for the guys, have no doubt.
Well done Brian.
I know the formal service on the Mull is strictly for families only, however I intend to be somewhere close by at the appointed hour.
I have to say that the idea of a service somewhere more accessible is a very good plan. Not only for people with personal reasons for celebrating the lives of ALL of those on board, but also to demonstrate that this is not forgotten.
We will get justice for the guys, have no doubt.
Well done Brian.
Hi again Brian,
Noted details for 2 June 2004 - I'm not on shift then, so hope to be able to attend.
Ah, EDMs. The ideal opportunity to see if my MP has launched himself into the latter half of the 20th Century. Alas, even though our part of Devon not only has 240 volts (most of the time) but also broadband and even digital terrestrial television, our local representative at Westminster hasn't yet seen fit to acquire an email address. Back to the same old tiresome procedure as last time - amazing how impenetrable the Lib Dems can be.
Best wishes,
T_B
Noted details for 2 June 2004 - I'm not on shift then, so hope to be able to attend.
Ah, EDMs. The ideal opportunity to see if my MP has launched himself into the latter half of the 20th Century. Alas, even though our part of Devon not only has 240 volts (most of the time) but also broadband and even digital terrestrial television, our local representative at Westminster hasn't yet seen fit to acquire an email address. Back to the same old tiresome procedure as last time - amazing how impenetrable the Lib Dems can be.
Best wishes,
T_B
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Nice letter from Mark Oaten, Lib Dem, Winchester agreeing to sign the EDM- "The tragedy that took place should not be forgotten. Everyone aboard the Chinook helicopter should be remembered fondly".
Haven't seen his name on the EDM yet, but will check next week.
T_B: if you check Beagle's post of 10 January on page 54, you will see a link to e-mail your MP. He also posted a link to check who has signed the EDM.
Haven't seen his name on the EDM yet, but will check next week.
T_B: if you check Beagle's post of 10 January on page 54, you will see a link to e-mail your MP. He also posted a link to check who has signed the EDM.
From previous posts:
To find out whether your MP has signed the EDM, go to:
http://edm.ais.co.uk/weblink/html/motion.html/ref=371
If you don't know who your MP is, he/she isn't worth voting for. But you can find out by going to http://www.locata.co.uk/commons/ . Enter your postcode where indicated and click on 'search'.
When the name of your MP is displayed, you will see that there is an e-mail contact link. Click on this and a simple form will then appear. Write your comments and click on 'send'.
Be polite but firm with your comments!
I note that, despite his earlier reply, Mr David Cameron, MP for British West Oxfordshire, has yet to sign the EDM although 80 others have.....
To find out whether your MP has signed the EDM, go to:
http://edm.ais.co.uk/weblink/html/motion.html/ref=371
If you don't know who your MP is, he/she isn't worth voting for. But you can find out by going to http://www.locata.co.uk/commons/ . Enter your postcode where indicated and click on 'search'.
When the name of your MP is displayed, you will see that there is an e-mail contact link. Click on this and a simple form will then appear. Write your comments and click on 'send'.
Be polite but firm with your comments!
I note that, despite his earlier reply, Mr David Cameron, MP for British West Oxfordshire, has yet to sign the EDM although 80 others have.....
chippy63,
Thanks, but I'm familiar with communicating with my MP from the earlier stages of this campaign. As I learned during the previous attempts to get our man to sign an EDM, he really doesn't have an email address! To communicate with him by non-telephonic, non-postal means you have to get in touch with his party headquarters. They were not able to provide satisfaction last time; I ended up writing old-fashioned snail-mail. Not to worry - he's retiring at the end of this session.
Thanks, but I'm familiar with communicating with my MP from the earlier stages of this campaign. As I learned during the previous attempts to get our man to sign an EDM, he really doesn't have an email address! To communicate with him by non-telephonic, non-postal means you have to get in touch with his party headquarters. They were not able to provide satisfaction last time; I ended up writing old-fashioned snail-mail. Not to worry - he's retiring at the end of this session.
Will anyone ever get to the bottom of this. I hate to say it, but I doubt it.
Cell-phone/GPS interference from the punters in the rear is what I think it was caused by.
I was airborne from Leuchars to Kinloss at the time and the weather was not at all brilliant for low-flying especially at top Chinook speed. It did after all hit the Mull going balls-out. Why?
I flew with them both in the other seat in the 80's and they were both good blokes. It certainly was not pilot error unless they were drunk. (And if you believe that then my cockerel IS a kipper).
Sadly, there are demons about.
Cell-phone/GPS interference from the punters in the rear is what I think it was caused by.
I was airborne from Leuchars to Kinloss at the time and the weather was not at all brilliant for low-flying especially at top Chinook speed. It did after all hit the Mull going balls-out. Why?
I flew with them both in the other seat in the 80's and they were both good blokes. It certainly was not pilot error unless they were drunk. (And if you believe that then my cockerel IS a kipper).
Sadly, there are demons about.
Have just received a letter from my MP, David Cameron. He states:
"Thank you for your e-mail of the 11th January regarding the Chinook crash on the Mull of Kintyre in 1994.
As you will know already, I believe that the causes of the crash need fuller investigation. I will sign Early Day Motion 371 and my Conservative colleagues on the defence team will also sign it.
I have enclosed the text of the EDM for you to read (etc).
Thank you again for writing and drawing this important EDM to my attention. I have also forwarded your support to the MoD in order that your views be taken into account"
Thank you, David - particularly for the support of all your Conservative colleagues on the defence team!
"Thank you for your e-mail of the 11th January regarding the Chinook crash on the Mull of Kintyre in 1994.
As you will know already, I believe that the causes of the crash need fuller investigation. I will sign Early Day Motion 371 and my Conservative colleagues on the defence team will also sign it.
I have enclosed the text of the EDM for you to read (etc).
Thank you again for writing and drawing this important EDM to my attention. I have also forwarded your support to the MoD in order that your views be taken into account"
Thank you, David - particularly for the support of all your Conservative colleagues on the defence team!
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Hi all,
EDM is now up to 93 signatures. Thank you all for your support and hard work.
Top marks BEags, thank you . Good result.
Welcome to the thread OCOK. I agree that no one will ever know for sure what happened or, indeed, what the cause was - The whole thrust of the campaign.
Chippy, hope all is well with you. Thanks, again, for contacting Mr Oaten. I'm off to London again in the near future so will look out for him again.
Thud, hope all is well with you too.
As always, I will keep you all updated with events.
My best to you all.
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
EDM is now up to 93 signatures. Thank you all for your support and hard work.
Top marks BEags, thank you . Good result.
Welcome to the thread OCOK. I agree that no one will ever know for sure what happened or, indeed, what the cause was - The whole thrust of the campaign.
Chippy, hope all is well with you. Thanks, again, for contacting Mr Oaten. I'm off to London again in the near future so will look out for him again.
Thud, hope all is well with you too.
As always, I will keep you all updated with events.
My best to you all.
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
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Fiddling with the EDM website, noticed that 1 Lab MP has withdrawn his signature; I wonder who that was, and why?
Mark Oaten doesn't appear to have signed yet, I'll check again at the end of the week.
Incidentally, is there a closing date for the EDM? just wondering how it works.
All the best to you, too, Brian; by the way, would you be planning to send invitations to the memorial service in London to MP's who sign the EDM? Just a thought.
Mark Oaten doesn't appear to have signed yet, I'll check again at the end of the week.
Incidentally, is there a closing date for the EDM? just wondering how it works.
All the best to you, too, Brian; by the way, would you be planning to send invitations to the memorial service in London to MP's who sign the EDM? Just a thought.
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Hi Chippy,
yes, we've thought of inviting the MPs, and once the date has been confirmed/authorised we'll be formally inviting them - in addition to inviting everyone else, of course!
The EDM should remain in place for the whole of this Parliamentary session, so I hope that we'll be around for a little longer. If not, we'll just come back again with another one! Don't know who it was that removed their name. I'll have a dig around and if I find out who, will contact them (and, of course, name them here).
Regards, as always.
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
yes, we've thought of inviting the MPs, and once the date has been confirmed/authorised we'll be formally inviting them - in addition to inviting everyone else, of course!
The EDM should remain in place for the whole of this Parliamentary session, so I hope that we'll be around for a little longer. If not, we'll just come back again with another one! Don't know who it was that removed their name. I'll have a dig around and if I find out who, will contact them (and, of course, name them here).
Regards, as always.
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook