Black Hawk Down
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Have just seen the film this afternoon. Even though I read the book last summer I was still dumbstruck and awed at these brave people being stuck in such a position with nowhere to turn to other than fight their way out.
See it!
I think that there was some artistic licencing going on with regards to some of the scenes where the Rangers/Delta are surrounded in a square with the 'skinnies' on the roof tops firing, but it is amazing that only 19 Americans died.
I hope that this makes people realize that war is not all glory and there are people who will get killed defending their beliefs and truths. Equally as important there are those who will go out and fight when all odds are against them knowing that they probably will not survive (Shughart and Gordon who were both killed knew the odds but wanted to try and save '64s crew).
Although it could be seen as a failure because so many Americans died in such a short space of time, I think the greatest failure is from the politicians who think that just by sending in a force to try and change a government/head of state they will solve a countries problems. Lets hope things stabilise and remain stabilised in the last 2 governmental involvements of Afghanistan and Seirra Leone respectively.
[ 25 January 2002: Message edited by: WhichWay? ]</p>
See it!
I think that there was some artistic licencing going on with regards to some of the scenes where the Rangers/Delta are surrounded in a square with the 'skinnies' on the roof tops firing, but it is amazing that only 19 Americans died.
I hope that this makes people realize that war is not all glory and there are people who will get killed defending their beliefs and truths. Equally as important there are those who will go out and fight when all odds are against them knowing that they probably will not survive (Shughart and Gordon who were both killed knew the odds but wanted to try and save '64s crew).
Although it could be seen as a failure because so many Americans died in such a short space of time, I think the greatest failure is from the politicians who think that just by sending in a force to try and change a government/head of state they will solve a countries problems. Lets hope things stabilise and remain stabilised in the last 2 governmental involvements of Afghanistan and Seirra Leone respectively.
[ 25 January 2002: Message edited by: WhichWay? ]</p>
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Interesting topic, tho I've not seen the film.
Clearly huge inflation in figures here though, mentions of 1000 or more Somali dead are, I believe simply nonsense. Scott Peterson in his book "Me Against My Brother" quotes 312 dead and 800 injured, a far cry fron the 80 -200 estimeate I heard whilst I was there at that time, in theatre.
The AC 130s were there at the time too, patrolling regularly in daytime, it would indeed be surprising if they were not available for support.
Having said that I was always astonished at the cavalier way the Blackhawks and Hueys dragged themselves over the city at 100 feet and sixty knots in endless day and night patrols, sitting targets if ever there was one. I am certain they did this deliberately to set themselves up as targets, there was always a Cobra hanging out opportunistically behind them at a much more workmanlike level. The phrase "asking for it" springs to mind.
There were times when I could have hit a UH1 or Blackhawk with a catapult from my bed on a roof near the "Arch de Triomphe" as seen in the movie's advertising which is actually at the opposite end of the city to where the incident took place, but then there were no OH58s in theatre either. . .Oh hell, who needs accuracy!
Still, best to remember that Uncle Sam did not go barging in there solo or uninvited, but at the behest of the UN and as part of a much larger multinational force intended not for the "overthrow of a government" - JOKE!!! - Somalia had had no "government in years, but to disarm a murderous bunch of armed thugs who were intent on destroying their nation and all it's non-combatant population - by which I mean only those aged 8 or less or geriatric.
The French and Nigerians killed a whole bunch of people very soon after arrival and never had problems after that, they had the populations respect. The Yanks? they pussied and flufffed and faddled and postured and posed and lost the chance to oversee the disarmament that most Somalis wanted, and which could proably have been imposed fairly easily had they acted firmly and decisively from the start. Sadly they blew it and earned the undying contempt of the warrior Somali - for being "soft like girls" as one Somali frend told me. 8 yr old kids were snatching the Ray-Bans (worth 3 weeks of a man's wages) off GI's faces as they patrolled in Humvees secure in the knowledge that the GIs would not shoot. The Somali onlookers loved it because of the GI's humiliation by children and they knew they could equally well drop grenades into the vehicles if they wished, and the GIs simply sat there and shat themselves. It was pathetic to watch. No way did the Somalis try that with the French, Nigerians or even the Pakistanis. That contempt for unmilitary wetness is a legacy that Uncle Sam will take decades to lose, if ever, and will make any political initiatives into the area devoid of credibility.
Lesson? Don't expect respect from warroirs if you behave like politically correct pussies.
As an insight into the mind of the foe of those poor unsupported GIs here is a traditional Somali proverb, and a quote;
"But of all the races of Africa there cannot be one. .better to live amongst than the most difficult,. .the proudest,the bravest, the vainest,the. .most merciless, the friendliest; the Somali".
---Gerald Hanley, Warriors.
. ."Me and my clan against the world;. .Me and my family against my clan;. .Me and my brother against my family;. .Me against my brother".
---The hierarchy of priorities,. .as ordered by a Somali proverb.
. .Beware all who would meddle here...
Clearly huge inflation in figures here though, mentions of 1000 or more Somali dead are, I believe simply nonsense. Scott Peterson in his book "Me Against My Brother" quotes 312 dead and 800 injured, a far cry fron the 80 -200 estimeate I heard whilst I was there at that time, in theatre.
The AC 130s were there at the time too, patrolling regularly in daytime, it would indeed be surprising if they were not available for support.
Having said that I was always astonished at the cavalier way the Blackhawks and Hueys dragged themselves over the city at 100 feet and sixty knots in endless day and night patrols, sitting targets if ever there was one. I am certain they did this deliberately to set themselves up as targets, there was always a Cobra hanging out opportunistically behind them at a much more workmanlike level. The phrase "asking for it" springs to mind.
There were times when I could have hit a UH1 or Blackhawk with a catapult from my bed on a roof near the "Arch de Triomphe" as seen in the movie's advertising which is actually at the opposite end of the city to where the incident took place, but then there were no OH58s in theatre either. . .Oh hell, who needs accuracy!
Still, best to remember that Uncle Sam did not go barging in there solo or uninvited, but at the behest of the UN and as part of a much larger multinational force intended not for the "overthrow of a government" - JOKE!!! - Somalia had had no "government in years, but to disarm a murderous bunch of armed thugs who were intent on destroying their nation and all it's non-combatant population - by which I mean only those aged 8 or less or geriatric.
The French and Nigerians killed a whole bunch of people very soon after arrival and never had problems after that, they had the populations respect. The Yanks? they pussied and flufffed and faddled and postured and posed and lost the chance to oversee the disarmament that most Somalis wanted, and which could proably have been imposed fairly easily had they acted firmly and decisively from the start. Sadly they blew it and earned the undying contempt of the warrior Somali - for being "soft like girls" as one Somali frend told me. 8 yr old kids were snatching the Ray-Bans (worth 3 weeks of a man's wages) off GI's faces as they patrolled in Humvees secure in the knowledge that the GIs would not shoot. The Somali onlookers loved it because of the GI's humiliation by children and they knew they could equally well drop grenades into the vehicles if they wished, and the GIs simply sat there and shat themselves. It was pathetic to watch. No way did the Somalis try that with the French, Nigerians or even the Pakistanis. That contempt for unmilitary wetness is a legacy that Uncle Sam will take decades to lose, if ever, and will make any political initiatives into the area devoid of credibility.
Lesson? Don't expect respect from warroirs if you behave like politically correct pussies.
As an insight into the mind of the foe of those poor unsupported GIs here is a traditional Somali proverb, and a quote;
"But of all the races of Africa there cannot be one. .better to live amongst than the most difficult,. .the proudest,the bravest, the vainest,the. .most merciless, the friendliest; the Somali".
---Gerald Hanley, Warriors.
. ."Me and my clan against the world;. .Me and my family against my clan;. .Me and my brother against my family;. .Me against my brother".
---The hierarchy of priorities,. .as ordered by a Somali proverb.
. .Beware all who would meddle here...
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Good Post Ag Bi
Confess to not knowing an awful lot about the background to the Somali sit . Saw the film last last and thought it was excellent. Like most war films I`ve seen ( Saving Private Ryan etc ) I cannot begin to imagine the feeling of being in that situation . A new found respect for infantry and chopper pilots (though the whirlybird drivers went up in my opinion after time to reflect in the drink off Anglesey waiting to be picked up after dinghy drills. Never been so glad to see a helicopter ) I digress . . .. . .
Awesome film . See it . Thought provoking stuff for anyone who may find themselves in similar positions in the future
[ 30 January 2002: Message edited by: KD ]</p>
Confess to not knowing an awful lot about the background to the Somali sit . Saw the film last last and thought it was excellent. Like most war films I`ve seen ( Saving Private Ryan etc ) I cannot begin to imagine the feeling of being in that situation . A new found respect for infantry and chopper pilots (though the whirlybird drivers went up in my opinion after time to reflect in the drink off Anglesey waiting to be picked up after dinghy drills. Never been so glad to see a helicopter ) I digress . . .. . .
Awesome film . See it . Thought provoking stuff for anyone who may find themselves in similar positions in the future
[ 30 January 2002: Message edited by: KD ]</p>
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Mighty Gem, I am certain there were no OH 58s (I've got the designator right, haven't I? I'm talking about military Hughes 500s)in Mog during 93 unless they were hidden in a hangar when no other helos were, or else shipborne, which is a pretty strange place to put such an unsuitable machine. US land based helos were Blackhawks, Cobras and mybe a few Hueys.
I never saw an Orion on the ground or in the air but that does not mean they never visited, but I'd say with certainty they never did so regularly or frequently. I'd heve noticed them on patrol unless very high indeed - you don't sleep on a roof and not take notice of the airborne activity, particularly if it is liable to start spewing fire, noise and fury in vast deafening and dazzling sheets - Puff would have been very very proud of his offspring. He sure impressed the hell out of me!
It is because I was so aware of the Spectres that I doubt I would have missed Orions if they had regular attenders.
Still, I could be wrong.
I'm also pretty sure that the reaction to the loss of the Blackhawks specifically did not involve the use of further helos, ground partols were sent in instead.
But then I guess no one said the movie was accurate did they, what movie ever is?
[ 31 January 2002: Message edited by: Agaricus bisporus ]</p>
I never saw an Orion on the ground or in the air but that does not mean they never visited, but I'd say with certainty they never did so regularly or frequently. I'd heve noticed them on patrol unless very high indeed - you don't sleep on a roof and not take notice of the airborne activity, particularly if it is liable to start spewing fire, noise and fury in vast deafening and dazzling sheets - Puff would have been very very proud of his offspring. He sure impressed the hell out of me!
It is because I was so aware of the Spectres that I doubt I would have missed Orions if they had regular attenders.
Still, I could be wrong.
I'm also pretty sure that the reaction to the loss of the Blackhawks specifically did not involve the use of further helos, ground partols were sent in instead.
But then I guess no one said the movie was accurate did they, what movie ever is?
[ 31 January 2002: Message edited by: Agaricus bisporus ]</p>
AB: The mil version of the Hughes 500 is the H-6 or 'Loach'. Which was in Somalia in force with the 160th SOAR in MH-6 (Special Forces insertion and sniper platform) and AH-6 (gunship) forms. These 'Little Birds' played a vital role in the operation portrayed in the movie, including providing fire support after the H-60 was downed. The H-58 is of course the military version of the Jet Ranger (Bell 206), and was also deployed.
P-3s were operating over Somalia (perhaps/probably from elsewhere) in numbers, including VPU-1/2s Reef Point/Storm Jib LOROP platforms, VQ-1/2's EP-3E Aries Elint platforms and standard P-3s.
[ 31 January 2002: Message edited by: Jackonicko ]</p>
P-3s were operating over Somalia (perhaps/probably from elsewhere) in numbers, including VPU-1/2s Reef Point/Storm Jib LOROP platforms, VQ-1/2's EP-3E Aries Elint platforms and standard P-3s.
[ 31 January 2002: Message edited by: Jackonicko ]</p>
Ag Bis, you say that you haven't seen the film, yet you comment that it is inaccurate. Compared to what? The book, or your eyewitness account? Have you read the book?. . <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
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Just going by the posters for the movie which depict swat teams hanging off the helos in question and flying over the arch de triomphe.
I am intrigued by Jackonickos post - I never saw anything resembling a Jet Ranger or a H5oo in my year there and as I said above I'd be very very surprised if they were present. It's hard to operate from an airfield for so long and not know what's on it. Jacko, perhaps you have more info - where were they based? Not Mogadishu airport, I'll bet. Baledogle perhaps? They must have been very rare visitors to Mog indeed. Certainly none of the accounts I have read about the incident refers to either type.
Orions, well they are obviously much more covert than I had imagined - high level evidently, but why not base them locally if they are needed like everything else?
I am intrigued by Jackonickos post - I never saw anything resembling a Jet Ranger or a H5oo in my year there and as I said above I'd be very very surprised if they were present. It's hard to operate from an airfield for so long and not know what's on it. Jacko, perhaps you have more info - where were they based? Not Mogadishu airport, I'll bet. Baledogle perhaps? They must have been very rare visitors to Mog indeed. Certainly none of the accounts I have read about the incident refers to either type.
Orions, well they are obviously much more covert than I had imagined - high level evidently, but why not base them locally if they are needed like everything else?
Ag Bis, I think I have the answer. It’s all part of the Star Wars/Trek spin off. Remember how we marvelled back in the 70s when Capt James T spoke on his communicator the size of cigarette packet? Compare that to our latest mobile ‘phones.
Anyway, I managed to hack into a couple of DoD computers over the weekend and found out that the 160 SOAR have been using an experimental electro magnetic generator that works on a process similar to a Romulan Warbird cloaking device.. .However, the diameter of the field produced is only just big enough to hide an aircraft the size of an OH/AH6 or OH58D. With a Blackhawk the nose and tail rotor can still be seen. This could explain why only Blackhawks were shot down and not the smaller types. This also explains why you never saw them when you were out there. Obviously the film company didn’t have access to this technology when making the movie.
With regards to the Orions, if you look at an aircraft in the middle distance it generally appears black against the background of sky. I remember reading some years ago of a theory that if you mounted a number of lights on an aircraft with a wavelength equal to that of the background, this would effectively render the aircraft invisible, or at least very hard to see. I suspect this may have been developed into a usable device.
Anyway I must go, it sounds like someone’s trying to break down my front door...............
Anyway, I managed to hack into a couple of DoD computers over the weekend and found out that the 160 SOAR have been using an experimental electro magnetic generator that works on a process similar to a Romulan Warbird cloaking device.. .However, the diameter of the field produced is only just big enough to hide an aircraft the size of an OH/AH6 or OH58D. With a Blackhawk the nose and tail rotor can still be seen. This could explain why only Blackhawks were shot down and not the smaller types. This also explains why you never saw them when you were out there. Obviously the film company didn’t have access to this technology when making the movie.
With regards to the Orions, if you look at an aircraft in the middle distance it generally appears black against the background of sky. I remember reading some years ago of a theory that if you mounted a number of lights on an aircraft with a wavelength equal to that of the background, this would effectively render the aircraft invisible, or at least very hard to see. I suspect this may have been developed into a usable device.
Anyway I must go, it sounds like someone’s trying to break down my front door...............
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Agaricus Bisporus:
AH-6 and MH-6 were in Mog. Anyone who doubts it, go talk to the 160th SOAR aircrew and READ BLACKHAWK DOWN. BBC even interviewed an MH-6 pilot when they did a peice on the original incident.
EP-3 definatley. Not sure about the OH-58 types. I agree these are odds
Are you alleging that AC-130 were operational in theatre at the time of the incident?
How do you know you weren't looking at C-130's or EC-130's. As the AC operate at about 5,000ft I doubt you could see the weapons. Genuine mistake and easy to make.
AH-6 and MH-6 were in Mog. Anyone who doubts it, go talk to the 160th SOAR aircrew and READ BLACKHAWK DOWN. BBC even interviewed an MH-6 pilot when they did a peice on the original incident.
EP-3 definatley. Not sure about the OH-58 types. I agree these are odds
Are you alleging that AC-130 were operational in theatre at the time of the incident?
How do you know you weren't looking at C-130's or EC-130's. As the AC operate at about 5,000ft I doubt you could see the weapons. Genuine mistake and easy to make.
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Er, low & slow, perhaps you'd better re read my posts. Nothing to do with 5000', even I can tell the diference between a regular herc and one with sodding great guns sticking out of it when I taxy past it.
Likewise I can not work out of an airfield for so many months and never see anything resembling a B206 or a H500 and be expected to easliy accept they were there and being used.
Orions, OK, maybe they were so high that they were not noticeable - and that's awful high, but those gunships droning around in circles all day and night at FL120 - well, -thats the level no one else was allowed to operate at- were always apparent, and at night positively obtrusive.
If these light helos are really claimed to have been present can someone please tell me where they were based, cos on an airfield with no cover like Mog they must have had one of those star trek force shields to hide them.
Likewise I can not work out of an airfield for so many months and never see anything resembling a B206 or a H500 and be expected to easliy accept they were there and being used.
Orions, OK, maybe they were so high that they were not noticeable - and that's awful high, but those gunships droning around in circles all day and night at FL120 - well, -thats the level no one else was allowed to operate at- were always apparent, and at night positively obtrusive.
If these light helos are really claimed to have been present can someone please tell me where they were based, cos on an airfield with no cover like Mog they must have had one of those star trek force shields to hide them.
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Agaricus bisporus,
Your mouth far outreachs your arse. I shall take but one obvious example: You claim (by supposed direct observation) that a certain helicopter type wasn't involved in MOG... you then retract that claim and admit you don't know one helo type from another. This rather negates the other claims you made based on your expertise.
Lamentably, that expertise doesn't exist and the Internet provides an outlet for ignorance.
Let me help out... I DID fly helos there (MOG) for over 13 months in units which DID contain the types you claimed weren't there.
As to your estimate of "Huge Inflation" of casualty figures..... how the hell do you know? I assure you that no NGO's (Red Cross Etc.) were allowed by the Somalies into that area to make a count and the Somalies damn certainly didn't bother to count. I know, I watched for a week as they pulled the bodies out and dumped them. So on what basis do you challenge anyones figures and make accusations of inflation?
While I note your backpedalling in subsequent posts your original one was a classic. You haven't seen the movie, haven't read the book but feel qualified to comment adversely and sling accusations on something you admit you know little about. Amazing
[ 10 February 2002: Message edited by: StbdD ]</p>
Your mouth far outreachs your arse. I shall take but one obvious example: You claim (by supposed direct observation) that a certain helicopter type wasn't involved in MOG... you then retract that claim and admit you don't know one helo type from another. This rather negates the other claims you made based on your expertise.
Lamentably, that expertise doesn't exist and the Internet provides an outlet for ignorance.
Let me help out... I DID fly helos there (MOG) for over 13 months in units which DID contain the types you claimed weren't there.
As to your estimate of "Huge Inflation" of casualty figures..... how the hell do you know? I assure you that no NGO's (Red Cross Etc.) were allowed by the Somalies into that area to make a count and the Somalies damn certainly didn't bother to count. I know, I watched for a week as they pulled the bodies out and dumped them. So on what basis do you challenge anyones figures and make accusations of inflation?
While I note your backpedalling in subsequent posts your original one was a classic. You haven't seen the movie, haven't read the book but feel qualified to comment adversely and sling accusations on something you admit you know little about. Amazing
[ 10 February 2002: Message edited by: StbdD ]</p>
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Right Delta;
You are correct about the helicopters, although I don't necessarily suspect hostile intent on the part of AgBi- his observations are based on an experience that was probably modified by perimeter security. He says he was there, but "there" may be relative...
As for the optics, there were P-3's in Somalia; straight-up P-3C's from, at different times, at least three different VP's, plus some of the niftier variants from other sources. The fact that they went unseen speaks to both the plan and their capabilities.
As for BHD, I think the film maker's honest adherence to the book & the story are truly remarkable. IMHO, this is one of the best "war movies" ever- better, because these events actually occurred, and more gripping because they "really left the bark on it". One sees Pearl Harbor veterans shake their heads when queried on the veracity "Pearl Harbor", while one sees the Ranger veterans of this episode weep when asked about "Black Hawk Down".
Finally, anybody slagging the US military for the tragic outcome of this operation is most certainly French - no citizen of the nation that celebrates the great victory at Dunkirk could possibly have the temerity to level a charge of incompetence here, could he <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> ?!
You are correct about the helicopters, although I don't necessarily suspect hostile intent on the part of AgBi- his observations are based on an experience that was probably modified by perimeter security. He says he was there, but "there" may be relative...
As for the optics, there were P-3's in Somalia; straight-up P-3C's from, at different times, at least three different VP's, plus some of the niftier variants from other sources. The fact that they went unseen speaks to both the plan and their capabilities.
As for BHD, I think the film maker's honest adherence to the book & the story are truly remarkable. IMHO, this is one of the best "war movies" ever- better, because these events actually occurred, and more gripping because they "really left the bark on it". One sees Pearl Harbor veterans shake their heads when queried on the veracity "Pearl Harbor", while one sees the Ranger veterans of this episode weep when asked about "Black Hawk Down".
Finally, anybody slagging the US military for the tragic outcome of this operation is most certainly French - no citizen of the nation that celebrates the great victory at Dunkirk could possibly have the temerity to level a charge of incompetence here, could he <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> ?!
It's not just an adventure....
it's just a job!
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Bright-Ling
Having been in Mogadishu for UNOSOM II and having seen the results of several "Puff the Magic Dragon" (AC130) missions, I would say that it would have made a very big difference!
Something very eerie about hearing that rumbling whine from the sky at night, followed by a very accurate and concentrated explosion on the ground with very little collateral damage!
Cheers <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> OffshoreIgor <img src="eek.gif" border="0">
PS.
There are only three types of people in the world:
1. Those who make things happen;
2. Those who watch things happen; and
3. Those who wonder what the F@CK happened!
Having been in Mogadishu for UNOSOM II and having seen the results of several "Puff the Magic Dragon" (AC130) missions, I would say that it would have made a very big difference!
Something very eerie about hearing that rumbling whine from the sky at night, followed by a very accurate and concentrated explosion on the ground with very little collateral damage!
Cheers <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> OffshoreIgor <img src="eek.gif" border="0">
PS.
There are only three types of people in the world:
1. Those who make things happen;
2. Those who watch things happen; and
3. Those who wonder what the F@CK happened!
