Are You Serious?
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Are You Serious?
So there I was, quite happily sitting in the bar, somewhere that is so far south it hurts, when a USAF engineer walks over to try and start a conversation. Eventually we got round to "what do you think about what's going on in Afhanistan then?" His response as a sober, intelligent member of a democratic country's armed forces? And we are talking about the land of the free here! "We should never have bothered with troops, just turn the place into glass!" DISCUSS!
Things are always worse than they seem!
Things are always worse than they seem!
I was accused of being a pacifist yesterday by a USAF Lt simply because I voiced the opinion that blowing Afghanistan further into the Dark Ages might not achieve the coalition's long term aims. Indiscriminate use of the Daisycutter seeems to be a popular option here. Anyway, I'm off to hug some trees.
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I'm totally horrified! As a civilised country there is SO much more we can do:
1. Offer the services of Railtrack to provide a transport infrastructure
2. Allow the spin doctors to redesign the Taliban image abroad
3. Offer to turn any remaining Taliban forces into yet another RRF
4. ....and THEN turn the place into a glass carpark!!!
(Edited to improve cynical impact!)
[ 05 December 2001: Message edited by: AllTrimDoubt ]
1. Offer the services of Railtrack to provide a transport infrastructure
2. Allow the spin doctors to redesign the Taliban image abroad
3. Offer to turn any remaining Taliban forces into yet another RRF
4. ....and THEN turn the place into a glass carpark!!!
(Edited to improve cynical impact!)
[ 05 December 2001: Message edited by: AllTrimDoubt ]
Try watching the video clips of Sep 11 again. Then try to work out why the likes of bin Laden haven't yet been turned into particles of fallout.
If the Marines go in, I'm sure that they will reason with their prisoners and talk to them about all the lovely huggy trees, clouds, kittens and little fluffy bunnies.....
bin Laden and Al Queera or whatever it's called deserve all that's coming...
[ 05 December 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]
If the Marines go in, I'm sure that they will reason with their prisoners and talk to them about all the lovely huggy trees, clouds, kittens and little fluffy bunnies.....
bin Laden and Al Queera or whatever it's called deserve all that's coming...
[ 05 December 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]
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Lots of happy smiling Afghan faces at that conference in Germay this morning,agreement has been reached.
All looking forward to fat bank accounts in variose European Capitals made up of siphoned off millions of dollars of promised international monetary aid.
Wonder how much better off the average Afghani will be ten years from now, not much,but some very happy very rich war lords on the ground.
Call me a cynic.
All looking forward to fat bank accounts in variose European Capitals made up of siphoned off millions of dollars of promised international monetary aid.
Wonder how much better off the average Afghani will be ten years from now, not much,but some very happy very rich war lords on the ground.
Call me a cynic.
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You are right Mr D, all they have to do is pretend to be best mates until they have all siphoned off enough international aid money and stashed it in Switzerland, then the usual ruck will begin all over again. I think that lot are only really happy when they're fighting.
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Not a huge surprise that our septic cousins want to reach for the buckets of sunshine, it fits their culture. After all, they get it rammed down their faces from infancy about them being the home of the brave and the land of the free. They just don't get it when they come accross someone unfortunate enough not to have been born in Uncle Sam's great land, and are even more baffled by the fact that, being such a great place an' all, someone is quite happy being a nationality other than their own. Because they would destroy a nation with "Son of Star Wars", that's how everyone else would try and take on the US..right? So, when Bin Liner has a couple of his clones fly into a building, pretty low tech solution for a high tech nation, they just can't get their heads round it. They are presented with a problem that requires a long term solution. Well, Americans can't wait more than a nano-second for something to happen witout their heads spinning off, so rather than do the job properly they just want to push a button, job done, and back in time for MTV and burgers.
Simple really.
Simple really.
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KBF, that is such a simplistic view of the way Americans see this situation. As a former RAF pilot now living over here, I can assure you that most of them are well aware of what's going on, and that they fully realise that this requires more subtlety than a mushroom cloud. Don't believe that CNN represents the average American's intellect - CNN has it's own agenda.
I, for one, have been extremely impressed with the measured response to this crisis over here in the US. How would the UK have coped if someone had flown two BA jets into NatWest Tower or the Houses of Parliament? It could easily have been done. The US has suprised the extremists by it's resilience, and by the outpouring of national pride. Americans got up at the "one count" after a low blow. Bin Laden and his cronies never have, and never will, understand the American culture. They're not Admiral Yamamoto ("...awaken a sleeping giant...").
Anyone who has done an exchange tour over here can testify to the genuine friendliness of Americans; they simply don't understand the hostilities of others towards them, or anybody else for that matter, and they are starting to realise that it is poverty that breeds extremism, more than ideology. But hit them, and they will hit back - harder. It's the creed they built their independence on. We Brits were slow to learn that in the 1800's.
BEagle's posting was quite insightful...
I, for one, have been extremely impressed with the measured response to this crisis over here in the US. How would the UK have coped if someone had flown two BA jets into NatWest Tower or the Houses of Parliament? It could easily have been done. The US has suprised the extremists by it's resilience, and by the outpouring of national pride. Americans got up at the "one count" after a low blow. Bin Laden and his cronies never have, and never will, understand the American culture. They're not Admiral Yamamoto ("...awaken a sleeping giant...").
Anyone who has done an exchange tour over here can testify to the genuine friendliness of Americans; they simply don't understand the hostilities of others towards them, or anybody else for that matter, and they are starting to realise that it is poverty that breeds extremism, more than ideology. But hit them, and they will hit back - harder. It's the creed they built their independence on. We Brits were slow to learn that in the 1800's.
BEagle's posting was quite insightful...
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"Well, Americans can't wait more than a nano-second for something to happen witout their heads spinning off"
Yup, in one of the serious broad sheets I recently read that over 25% of "average" Americans, can't even remember what triggered the war with Afghanistan.
Appendix:
"Average American" see: "The Springer Show"
Yup, in one of the serious broad sheets I recently read that over 25% of "average" Americans, can't even remember what triggered the war with Afghanistan.
Appendix:
"Average American" see: "The Springer Show"
What is REALLY scary about that 25% statistic is the question. A war against Afghanistan? When did that start? I thought it was against the bigbad Al Q and then the Taliban in order to get to the bigbad Al Q.
Ah well, to the bar, to the bar........
Ah well, to the bar, to the bar........
helmut fire:
Now that IS an insightful comment.
Now that IS an insightful comment.
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Sorry for my late arrival to this thread...
First of all, Ham Phisted, you ARE a pacifist, at least compared to everyone else living in Texas!
And what are you doing having intellectual debates with USAF lieutenants? Let's have a rational discussion about it over lunch and a beer tomorrow, like civilized men!
Now for the rest of you who view American military and politics as being straight out of "Dr Strangelove", don't let the comments of one idiot USAF engineer (how'd he even get into the bar in the first place??) represent the US stand on Afghanistan. If we only wanted to level the place into a flat, boring wasteland (why bother when we already have west Texas?), then we wouldn't be spending all our time and effort dropping humanitarian relief to the locals. We could pack more Daisy Cutters into the back of the C-17s and have ourselves a nice little fireworks show!
And as for that media survey, as helmet fire so aptly pointed out, it was a loaded question. Pretty much along the lines of "when did you stop beating your wife?" It's what happens to the press in a free society when there is nothing sensational to report. If there is no news than make some. And as for statistics...
Hey, could be worse, it could be a Greek prison!
Cheers!
First of all, Ham Phisted, you ARE a pacifist, at least compared to everyone else living in Texas!
And what are you doing having intellectual debates with USAF lieutenants? Let's have a rational discussion about it over lunch and a beer tomorrow, like civilized men!Now for the rest of you who view American military and politics as being straight out of "Dr Strangelove", don't let the comments of one idiot USAF engineer (how'd he even get into the bar in the first place??) represent the US stand on Afghanistan. If we only wanted to level the place into a flat, boring wasteland (why bother when we already have west Texas?), then we wouldn't be spending all our time and effort dropping humanitarian relief to the locals. We could pack more Daisy Cutters into the back of the C-17s and have ourselves a nice little fireworks show!
And as for that media survey, as helmet fire so aptly pointed out, it was a loaded question. Pretty much along the lines of "when did you stop beating your wife?" It's what happens to the press in a free society when there is nothing sensational to report. If there is no news than make some. And as for statistics...
Hey, could be worse, it could be a Greek prison!
Cheers!
For those who sit at home safe and sound and think they have a peaceful solution to all the Worlds problems.
The Night Before Christmas
‘Twas the night before Christmas, he lived,
In a one-bedroom house, made of plaster and stone.
I had come down the chimney, with presents to give,
And to see just whom, in this home, did live.
I looked all about a strange sight I did see,
No tinsel, no presents, not even a tree.
No stocking by the mantle, just boots filled with sand,
On the wall hung pictures of a far distant land.
With medals and badges, awards of all kinds,
A sober thought came to mind.
For this house was different, it was dark and dreary,
I found the home of a soldier, once I could see clearly.
The soldier lay sleeping, silent and alone,
Curled up on a poncho, in this one-bedroom home.
The face was so gentle, the room in such disorder,
Not how I pictured an Australian soldier.
Was the hero of whom I just read?
Curled up on a poncho, the floor for a bed?
I realised the families, that I saw that night,
Owed their lives to these soldiers who were willing to fight.
Soon around the world children would play,
And grownups would celebrate a bright Christmas Day.
They all enjoyed freedom, each month of the year,
Because of the soldiers, like the one lying here.
I couldn’t help wonder how many lay alone,
On a cold Christmas Eve in a land far from home.
The very thought brought a tear to my eye,
I dropped to my knees and I started to cry.
The soldier awakened, and I heard a rough voice,
“Santa don’t cry, this is my choice;
I fight for freedom, I don’t ask for more,
My life is my God, my country, my corps.”
The soldier rolled over and drifted to sleep,
I couldn’t control it I continued to weep.
I kept watch for hours so silent and still,
And we both shivered from the cold night chill.
I didn’t want to leave on that cold dark night,
This guardian of honour, so willing to fight.
Then the soldier rolled over with a voice so soft and pure,
Whispered “carry on Santa, it’s Christmas day, all is secure.”
One look at my watch and I new he was right.
“ Merry Christmas my friend and to all a goodnight.”
This poem was written by a Peacekeeping soldier, stationed overseas.
The following is his request. I think is reasonable…
PLEASE. Would you do me this favour of sending this to as many people as you can? Christmas will be coming soon and some credit is due to our Australian Service men and women for our being able to celebrate these festivities. Let’s try in this small way to pay a tiny bit of what we owe.
Make people stop and think of our heroes, living and dead, who sacrificed themselves for us. Please do your small part to plant this small seed.
The Night Before Christmas
‘Twas the night before Christmas, he lived,
In a one-bedroom house, made of plaster and stone.
I had come down the chimney, with presents to give,
And to see just whom, in this home, did live.
I looked all about a strange sight I did see,
No tinsel, no presents, not even a tree.
No stocking by the mantle, just boots filled with sand,
On the wall hung pictures of a far distant land.
With medals and badges, awards of all kinds,
A sober thought came to mind.
For this house was different, it was dark and dreary,
I found the home of a soldier, once I could see clearly.
The soldier lay sleeping, silent and alone,
Curled up on a poncho, in this one-bedroom home.
The face was so gentle, the room in such disorder,
Not how I pictured an Australian soldier.
Was the hero of whom I just read?
Curled up on a poncho, the floor for a bed?
I realised the families, that I saw that night,
Owed their lives to these soldiers who were willing to fight.
Soon around the world children would play,
And grownups would celebrate a bright Christmas Day.
They all enjoyed freedom, each month of the year,
Because of the soldiers, like the one lying here.
I couldn’t help wonder how many lay alone,
On a cold Christmas Eve in a land far from home.
The very thought brought a tear to my eye,
I dropped to my knees and I started to cry.
The soldier awakened, and I heard a rough voice,
“Santa don’t cry, this is my choice;
I fight for freedom, I don’t ask for more,
My life is my God, my country, my corps.”
The soldier rolled over and drifted to sleep,
I couldn’t control it I continued to weep.
I kept watch for hours so silent and still,
And we both shivered from the cold night chill.
I didn’t want to leave on that cold dark night,
This guardian of honour, so willing to fight.
Then the soldier rolled over with a voice so soft and pure,
Whispered “carry on Santa, it’s Christmas day, all is secure.”
One look at my watch and I new he was right.
“ Merry Christmas my friend and to all a goodnight.”
This poem was written by a Peacekeeping soldier, stationed overseas.
The following is his request. I think is reasonable…
PLEASE. Would you do me this favour of sending this to as many people as you can? Christmas will be coming soon and some credit is due to our Australian Service men and women for our being able to celebrate these festivities. Let’s try in this small way to pay a tiny bit of what we owe.
Make people stop and think of our heroes, living and dead, who sacrificed themselves for us. Please do your small part to plant this small seed.
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Dear all,
Having just spent the last 12 weeks against my will in the land of the free, I can say that it is true CNN does not represent the intellect of the average American in Arizona - none of them are so clever. The level of ignorance over here is astounding, and clearly Phoenix only exists to take all the rednecks that can't navigate to Texas!
I for one can't wait to get home to the only country with 'Great' in the title, and get away from all this flag-waving, in-your-face bulls**t!
Don't leave with the impression that I dislike Americans (I don't as it happens), but the ability of a nation with so much potential, to be so collectively stupid is mind-boggling. It also bugs me that their news media still refer to the IRA as 'freedom fighters', and not one European or Israeli appears on their '22 most wanted' terrorist list - why?
Lets hope the Americans pull their head out of their ass long enough to take a reality check what the rest of the world (yes, it does extend beyond 50 states!) actually does, and just maybe things might change in the future.
Having just spent the last 12 weeks against my will in the land of the free, I can say that it is true CNN does not represent the intellect of the average American in Arizona - none of them are so clever. The level of ignorance over here is astounding, and clearly Phoenix only exists to take all the rednecks that can't navigate to Texas!
I for one can't wait to get home to the only country with 'Great' in the title, and get away from all this flag-waving, in-your-face bulls**t!
Don't leave with the impression that I dislike Americans (I don't as it happens), but the ability of a nation with so much potential, to be so collectively stupid is mind-boggling. It also bugs me that their news media still refer to the IRA as 'freedom fighters', and not one European or Israeli appears on their '22 most wanted' terrorist list - why?
Lets hope the Americans pull their head out of their ass long enough to take a reality check what the rest of the world (yes, it does extend beyond 50 states!) actually does, and just maybe things might change in the future.
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Hey, ErikEverhard, two words, Good Riddence!
I have never heard of the IRA referred to as 'freedom fighters' anywhere in the US, and I've lived here over 30 years. And name one European or Israeli that has ever attacked the US. Perhaps during your stay here you noticed the events of 11 Sep, and all that died at the Pentagon, WTC, and in Pennsylvania. Consider those events and you might get a clue into who DOES appear on our '22 most wanted' terrorist list.
Spare us your lectures, mate, and get off your damned horse.
I have never heard of the IRA referred to as 'freedom fighters' anywhere in the US, and I've lived here over 30 years. And name one European or Israeli that has ever attacked the US. Perhaps during your stay here you noticed the events of 11 Sep, and all that died at the Pentagon, WTC, and in Pennsylvania. Consider those events and you might get a clue into who DOES appear on our '22 most wanted' terrorist list.
Spare us your lectures, mate, and get off your damned horse.
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I posted this on another thread earlier today, but this thread is probably more apt.
I'm reading a book about the American Revolution. It's interesting to read about the likes of Samuel Adams, one of the precipitators of the American Revolution. Adams' extremist views and sometimes quite radically intemperate actions polarised his more even-tempered fellow revolutionaries (and the large numbers of non-revolutionaries among the colonists, who preferred to remain loyal to England) early in the period of turmoil. He was almost certainly seen by the majority, even people on his side, as the Osama Bin Laden of his day.
I sometimes wonder if the Americans, with their current 'war on terrorism', ever pause to ponder on the irony that their own nation was born thanks to what the law abiding Establishment of those times would have seen as terrorism no less heinous than that perpetrated by today's Islamic radicals. (Roger's Rangers, irregular Continental troops who fought totally outside the accepted norms of combat, were the PFLP of the day.) The society the American Revolutionaries were attempting to create, a republic with voting rights for the common, untitled man and a democratically elected head of state, would have been seen by the Royalists of the day to have been every bit as threatening, radical and extreme as the Islamic society Bin Laden and his followers aspires towards today. Even closer to the current age, thinking Israelis must squirm when they look back on some of their founding fathers, like the leaders of the Stern Gang for instance, one of whom later became their Prime Minister. The irony gets really thick when an Israeli asks from whom did the Palestinians learn the ground rules in using terrorism to advance their political case.
I'm reading a book about the American Revolution. It's interesting to read about the likes of Samuel Adams, one of the precipitators of the American Revolution. Adams' extremist views and sometimes quite radically intemperate actions polarised his more even-tempered fellow revolutionaries (and the large numbers of non-revolutionaries among the colonists, who preferred to remain loyal to England) early in the period of turmoil. He was almost certainly seen by the majority, even people on his side, as the Osama Bin Laden of his day.
I sometimes wonder if the Americans, with their current 'war on terrorism', ever pause to ponder on the irony that their own nation was born thanks to what the law abiding Establishment of those times would have seen as terrorism no less heinous than that perpetrated by today's Islamic radicals. (Roger's Rangers, irregular Continental troops who fought totally outside the accepted norms of combat, were the PFLP of the day.) The society the American Revolutionaries were attempting to create, a republic with voting rights for the common, untitled man and a democratically elected head of state, would have been seen by the Royalists of the day to have been every bit as threatening, radical and extreme as the Islamic society Bin Laden and his followers aspires towards today. Even closer to the current age, thinking Israelis must squirm when they look back on some of their founding fathers, like the leaders of the Stern Gang for instance, one of whom later became their Prime Minister. The irony gets really thick when an Israeli asks from whom did the Palestinians learn the ground rules in using terrorism to advance their political case.
I'm slightly critical of America on the war in Afghanistan, as regular PPRuNers will know.
(My worries were that the response was not adequately focused against the guilty - I'm entirely with BEagle in believeing that "bin Laden and Al Queera or whatever it's called deserve all that's coming..." - but I'm less comfortable with the legitimacy of a war with the Taliban - I hate them too, mind you, and will be pleased to see them fall. I'm also worried that military action has been allowed to drag on too long, and that a shorter, sharper, more focused and more intensive campaign would have been better than this Kosovo-type slogging match from a PR and public/international support point of view. Finally, I don't think enough has been done to bring the moderate Arab/Islamic world onside, nor to correct the misapprehension that this was a US act of retaliation and revenge for 11 September.)
All that said, I'm a great fan of the American people. Kind, generous, moral, hospitable and honourable as they are. And Arizona is especially great, with particularly wonderful Americans living there. The crack about Phoenix is just plain wrong - though why they didn't continue on to Tucson, or over to Santa Fe is a bit of a mystery! We may joke about America's MacDonalds culture and all the rest, and may sometimes poke fun but I wonder whether the average American is any more or less stupid than the average Brit. Comparing CNN and Sky News, or the Sport and Sun with US tabloids is an unprofitable and depressing game for either nationality, I fear.
It may be that some key sections of US society have a broader education than comparable sections over here, or it may not, but I think that a legitimate criticism is that Americans do tend to be a little insular and inward-looking, and that Erik Everhard's post, while over-the-top and insulting does contain a grain of truth.
Major Mad asks us to: "name one European or Israeli that has ever attacked the US." almost proving the point. Terrorism existed before 11 September, and other targets have been attacked by equally evil men.
Moreover, 11 September itself is more complicated than is comfortable. However much we'd prefer to reduce it to good and evil, those who perpetrated this atrocity were driven by what they perveresely saw as 'right', and there are underlying problems which must be addressed if the problem of global terrorism (and especially Islamic terrorism) is to be addressed.
I'm not entirely sure that supporting Israel's state terrorism against the Palestinian authorities (rather than against the Hamas terrorists responsible, who 'deserve everything they get') is either just or, more importantly, wise. In the long run, peace and reconciliation can probably only be achieved by encouraging Israel to disgorge the territory it took by force of arms in 1967, removing illegal settlements and allowing a Palestinian state with East Jerusalem as its capital - while simultaneously offering guarantees of the security of Israel's remaining territory. Watching the IDF targeting Arafat and the Palestinian police, and killing more 15 year-olds is an undeifying spectacle, and to pretend that Israel's brutality and intransigence on land for police isn't partially responsible for the depressing cycle of violence is short-sighted and foolish.
What a depressing world we live in....
(My worries were that the response was not adequately focused against the guilty - I'm entirely with BEagle in believeing that "bin Laden and Al Queera or whatever it's called deserve all that's coming..." - but I'm less comfortable with the legitimacy of a war with the Taliban - I hate them too, mind you, and will be pleased to see them fall. I'm also worried that military action has been allowed to drag on too long, and that a shorter, sharper, more focused and more intensive campaign would have been better than this Kosovo-type slogging match from a PR and public/international support point of view. Finally, I don't think enough has been done to bring the moderate Arab/Islamic world onside, nor to correct the misapprehension that this was a US act of retaliation and revenge for 11 September.)
All that said, I'm a great fan of the American people. Kind, generous, moral, hospitable and honourable as they are. And Arizona is especially great, with particularly wonderful Americans living there. The crack about Phoenix is just plain wrong - though why they didn't continue on to Tucson, or over to Santa Fe is a bit of a mystery! We may joke about America's MacDonalds culture and all the rest, and may sometimes poke fun but I wonder whether the average American is any more or less stupid than the average Brit. Comparing CNN and Sky News, or the Sport and Sun with US tabloids is an unprofitable and depressing game for either nationality, I fear.
It may be that some key sections of US society have a broader education than comparable sections over here, or it may not, but I think that a legitimate criticism is that Americans do tend to be a little insular and inward-looking, and that Erik Everhard's post, while over-the-top and insulting does contain a grain of truth.
Major Mad asks us to: "name one European or Israeli that has ever attacked the US." almost proving the point. Terrorism existed before 11 September, and other targets have been attacked by equally evil men.
Moreover, 11 September itself is more complicated than is comfortable. However much we'd prefer to reduce it to good and evil, those who perpetrated this atrocity were driven by what they perveresely saw as 'right', and there are underlying problems which must be addressed if the problem of global terrorism (and especially Islamic terrorism) is to be addressed.
I'm not entirely sure that supporting Israel's state terrorism against the Palestinian authorities (rather than against the Hamas terrorists responsible, who 'deserve everything they get') is either just or, more importantly, wise. In the long run, peace and reconciliation can probably only be achieved by encouraging Israel to disgorge the territory it took by force of arms in 1967, removing illegal settlements and allowing a Palestinian state with East Jerusalem as its capital - while simultaneously offering guarantees of the security of Israel's remaining territory. Watching the IDF targeting Arafat and the Palestinian police, and killing more 15 year-olds is an undeifying spectacle, and to pretend that Israel's brutality and intransigence on land for police isn't partially responsible for the depressing cycle of violence is short-sighted and foolish.
What a depressing world we live in....
Mark you, when you think about it, the US has never had it particularly easy. Like the settlers who, having got fed up with the East with its rain, fog, cold in the winter, not to mention unfriendly tribes of Indians, undecipherable Brooklyn accents and power-shouldered NooYarkers, set off for the West in their waggons. After many long weeks they made it to Kansas, took one look and kept going. Finally one day they decided to stop for the night as California was supposed to be just over the horizon. Imagine their horror when dawn broke the next day and there was Pike's Peak! "Thank you so bŁoody much, O Lord", they cried - "that's all we needed!". It was then a toss-up - stay and get frozen in Colorado where the weather was chilly but at least there was Coors, or hack it over the Rockies to California where there was surfing to be done and babes on the beach to ogle, 'twas said. No contest really - although the settlers with the particularly gaily painted waggons decided to give San Francisco a go instead and took to wearing leather underpants.....
Meanwhile the East got bigger and richer and was the welcoming sight for many a repressed refugee escaping from persecution or the threat of having to appear in a movie with Kate Winslet; until one fine day out of the clear blue September sky some mad ba$tards used the freedom of US air travel to murder thousands of innocent people. So don't expect the peace-loving Americans who suffered this outrage to show much mercy to the cowards hiding in their Afghanistani caves.....
Meanwhile the East got bigger and richer and was the welcoming sight for many a repressed refugee escaping from persecution or the threat of having to appear in a movie with Kate Winslet; until one fine day out of the clear blue September sky some mad ba$tards used the freedom of US air travel to murder thousands of innocent people. So don't expect the peace-loving Americans who suffered this outrage to show much mercy to the cowards hiding in their Afghanistani caves.....