Apache/Tornado navs
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Fishbones, I remember a nav at MW in about 96,97 ish who was an absolute star at the EW type of stuff and a very able instructor to boot. The best man for the job, regardless of cap badge (or service), is the way ahead for teaching this type of stuff to those of us (nearly all??) who will require instruction in this field. If I want to know about ship landings I ask the RN, if I need to know about snow survival I ask a RM. YouASMR.......gutsy move! 
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Fone Effect
A difficult question and one not for this forum, you will have to wait for my after dinner speaking circuit!
Moral isn't that bad in the AH world though and I think it is probably a bigger issue across the AAC as a whole.
YASMR, I'm fine thanks, keep the greasy side down now!
A difficult question and one not for this forum, you will have to wait for my after dinner speaking circuit!
Moral isn't that bad in the AH world though and I think it is probably a bigger issue across the AAC as a whole.
YASMR, I'm fine thanks, keep the greasy side down now!
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HeliAviator,
Are you the chap that flew the Chinook at last years Mass Crash ? If so, I doubt you'll be welcome in the AACA bar next year should you decide to come back.
And if you are that chap....what's with the hair dye ?
Huge apologies if I'm barking up the wrong tree, sir.
Regards,
X-Quork.
Are you the chap that flew the Chinook at last years Mass Crash ? If so, I doubt you'll be welcome in the AACA bar next year should you decide to come back.
And if you are that chap....what's with the hair dye ?
Huge apologies if I'm barking up the wrong tree, sir.
Regards,
X-Quork.
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You guys seem to be missing some major points:
1. The FJ world are desperately short of JO navs so where would all these prospective exchange guys come from.
2. If there were any to spare it is unlikely that your average FJ nav would see an AAC exchange on the Apache as much of an 'upgrade' from what he's doing already, and as an officer he'd probably only get a few 100 hrs out of a tour anyway.
3. If he'd have to do a pilot's course then he'd probably want something fast and pointy out of it as, historically, although many have 'failed to make the grade' - 64AV8or's words- the vast majority of ex FJ navs who do pilot crossover training end up back on their original steeds and many go to the single seat world. Not all navigators are failed pilots 64.
In summary then, in AAC hands it's not as attractive a job as you all think it is.
BTW, I'm intrigued, why does it need only 2 pilots? Why not 3 in case the other 2 get it.
1. The FJ world are desperately short of JO navs so where would all these prospective exchange guys come from.
2. If there were any to spare it is unlikely that your average FJ nav would see an AAC exchange on the Apache as much of an 'upgrade' from what he's doing already, and as an officer he'd probably only get a few 100 hrs out of a tour anyway.
3. If he'd have to do a pilot's course then he'd probably want something fast and pointy out of it as, historically, although many have 'failed to make the grade' - 64AV8or's words- the vast majority of ex FJ navs who do pilot crossover training end up back on their original steeds and many go to the single seat world. Not all navigators are failed pilots 64.
In summary then, in AAC hands it's not as attractive a job as you all think it is.
BTW, I'm intrigued, why does it need only 2 pilots? Why not 3 in case the other 2 get it.
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Must agree with the above, there simply aren't the Navs spare in the FJ world to take advantage of any crossover. Indeed many are now approaching mandatory retirement, exacerbating the problem. Situation might change a bit when f3 gets phased out, there seems to be many more wacky schemes out there about what do with all those spare WSOs.
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My opinion (for what little it is worth) is that it is probably easier and quicker to train a current pilot to operate the nav/weapons systems than it is to train a Navigator to to become a fully fledged helo pilot.
Average pilot training course: 2 to 3 years. Average conversion course to teach weapons/kit/tactics: more like 6 to 9 months (depends how much tactics etc. is done on the squadron).
Put the more experienced/able bloke in the front to enable him to do both jobs and then as the chap in the back gains experience, put him up front. Works well enough with Captain and Co-pilot on fixed wing (e.g. the sort of big, proper bomber we no longer have but that the Yanks do).
Maybe a few RAF ground attack guys on loan could helpm with the inital bringing up to speed - at least they would know how to operate in bad weather (which the Americans appear unable to do). This would surely be more attractive than being a BALO.
And as a final point - I was Leeming when John Nichol was on 11 Sqn and tried to get some value out of his simulator time. The bloke was cr@p (to put it bluntly) and although I am no fan of the Army, I would NEVER wish Nichol upon them!
(Ed: Additional thoughts added)
[ 26 October 2001: Message edited by: moggie ]
Average pilot training course: 2 to 3 years. Average conversion course to teach weapons/kit/tactics: more like 6 to 9 months (depends how much tactics etc. is done on the squadron).
Put the more experienced/able bloke in the front to enable him to do both jobs and then as the chap in the back gains experience, put him up front. Works well enough with Captain and Co-pilot on fixed wing (e.g. the sort of big, proper bomber we no longer have but that the Yanks do).
Maybe a few RAF ground attack guys on loan could helpm with the inital bringing up to speed - at least they would know how to operate in bad weather (which the Americans appear unable to do). This would surely be more attractive than being a BALO.
And as a final point - I was Leeming when John Nichol was on 11 Sqn and tried to get some value out of his simulator time. The bloke was cr@p (to put it bluntly) and although I am no fan of the Army, I would NEVER wish Nichol upon them!
(Ed: Additional thoughts added)
[ 26 October 2001: Message edited by: moggie ]
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Just my 2 pence worth
This subject is a moot point. There are no "spare" Tornado Nav's in the RAF. The shortage of fast jet Nav's is worse than the shortage of pilots ( whoops to who ever auth'd all those crossovers to pilot- no more for the forseeable future from the FJ Nav world!). We were briefed that the shortage of FJ Nav's will reach something in the region of 50 to 60% manning on tornado sqns in 2004/5 and will only start to improve as the eurofighter really starts to take over in 2007/8(or later, any bets?). By then the Army will have no need for extra's. Personally I am sorted for the future "do you want fries with that":-)
This subject is a moot point. There are no "spare" Tornado Nav's in the RAF. The shortage of fast jet Nav's is worse than the shortage of pilots ( whoops to who ever auth'd all those crossovers to pilot- no more for the forseeable future from the FJ Nav world!). We were briefed that the shortage of FJ Nav's will reach something in the region of 50 to 60% manning on tornado sqns in 2004/5 and will only start to improve as the eurofighter really starts to take over in 2007/8(or later, any bets?). By then the Army will have no need for extra's. Personally I am sorted for the future "do you want fries with that":-)
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came late to this party...
waddya mean, AAC got no experience in weapons from aircraft? we are the ONLY arm in UK service (sorry RM, y'all got absorbed, dincha?) who have experience in direct fire weapons from helos, going back decades. Scout SS11? Lynx TOW? Gazelle SNEB (tee hee)? point has been made already, but the aac are really the only people to operate the beastie. the 'ownership' issue was closed, at the highest level, long before wastelands started cutting metal.
still, enjoying the banter!
waddya mean, AAC got no experience in weapons from aircraft? we are the ONLY arm in UK service (sorry RM, y'all got absorbed, dincha?) who have experience in direct fire weapons from helos, going back decades. Scout SS11? Lynx TOW? Gazelle SNEB (tee hee)? point has been made already, but the aac are really the only people to operate the beastie. the 'ownership' issue was closed, at the highest level, long before wastelands started cutting metal.
still, enjoying the banter!
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What the Apache needs is well trained, professional, mature aircrew - whatever the source. I hope the new generation AAC aircrew are mature enough to be above the pathetic and childish mudslinging demonstrated by their predecessors above. Whatever happened to reasoned argument? 
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Grey area, you can't be a frog or you'd br rolling your a**e!, mudslinging, what planet do you inhabit, if the Mud was'nt thown at the Aac in the first place they wouldn't have to throw it back.....its called sticking up for yourselves and your principles....not that a froggie would know about that, bring all the Air corps into the Airforce I say, at least they'd know how to wear their Berets!
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Ah yes, beret wearing, now there's something to be proud of. Reserved for pond life and rotary crews IMHO (same thing really). Can't beat a nice well worn SD.
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TqNrEtc you moron
Do you think our RN Lynx just throw harsh language at the enemy. I personally have no worries about you boys getting the apache, better you than the crabs! But I must correct your foolish statement.
Do you think our RN Lynx just throw harsh language at the enemy. I personally have no worries about you boys getting the apache, better you than the crabs! But I must correct your foolish statement.
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Flyingrockdj
Let me explain:
flying suit+SD hat = RAF aircrew mate at home
flying suit+ '
chip-bag' = RAF aircrew mate on det
flying suit + beret = heavily tattooed & foul-mouthed squaddie bloke who's done 6 months at Wallop and Shawbers and who now thinks he is a cross between Wellington and Chuck Yeager, ( he's the 1st bloke to go supersonic - that means faster than the speed of sound, which is about 6 times faster than your Dad's car), and who is proud of his ability to wear a floppy hat. Equally it could also be some RAF SH mate who couldn't find either his SD or Chipbag, to whom I say , stop it you look like squaddies.
BTW, Mach where do fighter mates get their SDs from; Bates only go up to 9 3/4 and Gieves stop at 9 1/2. Just wondered monkeyboy.
Chin chin
SP
Let me explain:
flying suit+SD hat = RAF aircrew mate at home
flying suit+ '
chip-bag' = RAF aircrew mate on det
flying suit + beret = heavily tattooed & foul-mouthed squaddie bloke who's done 6 months at Wallop and Shawbers and who now thinks he is a cross between Wellington and Chuck Yeager, ( he's the 1st bloke to go supersonic - that means faster than the speed of sound, which is about 6 times faster than your Dad's car), and who is proud of his ability to wear a floppy hat. Equally it could also be some RAF SH mate who couldn't find either his SD or Chipbag, to whom I say , stop it you look like squaddies.
BTW, Mach where do fighter mates get their SDs from; Bates only go up to 9 3/4 and Gieves stop at 9 1/2. Just wondered monkeyboy.
Chin chin
SP
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Strobin'
SD usually purchased before training as a Knight of the Sky completed, therefore, no problem finding one to fit. Once trained hat stretches and droops at the sides to fit.
SD usually purchased before training as a Knight of the Sky completed, therefore, no problem finding one to fit. Once trained hat stretches and droops at the sides to fit.
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so strobin', does that mean the Army are faster learners?, and no tattos on me matey, nor body piercing!, unlike some Crabbo's me knows.....oooooooyou're all soooo posh in the Air Force. cool answer Mach, did Strobin' wash out of FJ per chance........
DISCUSSSSSS!
DISCUSSSSSS!
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Strobin, probably makes us closer to being in the military than yourself and your union card. It certainly isn't 1940 you know. I don't care how many times you go up diddly up, up, your all still gits.
Just how many pongo's have you worked with on your planet? Tattooed and pierced we may be but we make do with what is given to us. Hands tied so to speak.
I must say that the likes of TqNrT4Ng are not the voice of the majority so don't tar us all with the same brush jobby.
Variety equals experience in lots of different fields as opposed to I/C pony club and a panache for wearing headdress in an interesting way.
Before you start white noising, I have had the pleasure of working with The Royal Air Force for an extended period of time, a time that was, to say the least interesting. May I compare it to pulling teeth. Good plan, 5hite execution.
Shop floor level (Flt Lt and below, on the whole top blokes) but go above that and the pyramid appears to have the co-ordination of a house brick (apart from Moose that is!)
Strobin, when do you qualify as Firefly/day/VMC and get your wings?
You can't possibly be one of those top blokes who has served in HM Forces for a period any greater than 0.5 with the attitude you have as most of your posts have the slant of a juvenile wannabe with a very thin log book containing mostly civilian marks.
Just how many pongo's have you worked with on your planet? Tattooed and pierced we may be but we make do with what is given to us. Hands tied so to speak.
I must say that the likes of TqNrT4Ng are not the voice of the majority so don't tar us all with the same brush jobby.
Variety equals experience in lots of different fields as opposed to I/C pony club and a panache for wearing headdress in an interesting way.
Before you start white noising, I have had the pleasure of working with The Royal Air Force for an extended period of time, a time that was, to say the least interesting. May I compare it to pulling teeth. Good plan, 5hite execution.
Shop floor level (Flt Lt and below, on the whole top blokes) but go above that and the pyramid appears to have the co-ordination of a house brick (apart from Moose that is!)
Strobin, when do you qualify as Firefly/day/VMC and get your wings?
You can't possibly be one of those top blokes who has served in HM Forces for a period any greater than 0.5 with the attitude you have as most of your posts have the slant of a juvenile wannabe with a very thin log book containing mostly civilian marks.