Has saluting had its day?
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Kaa050. You don't deserve to have those tabs on your shoulder. A similar thing happened to me, the poor s0d was confused, but i let it pass. Charging him isn't the way to go about it. every day when i cycle home, squaddies don't salute, but do i care? As long as i get a 'evening sir' or recognsion i'm there its alright.
The whole business about saluting, yes its had its days, but i think it should only be kept for formal use.
If you want to be saluted, and your but officially kissed, then go to RAF Cosford, or Halton. They'll do it all day long.
Regards
Felix
The whole business about saluting, yes its had its days, but i think it should only be kept for formal use.
If you want to be saluted, and your but officially kissed, then go to RAF Cosford, or Halton. They'll do it all day long.
Regards
Felix
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Saluting is a mark of respect for the Monarch. Like it or not, those who wear uniform accept the 'Queen's Shilling' (and if you don't understand what that means, get your heads into military history).
I accept that not everybody in the Armed forces is a raging Royalist. But those who do not believe in the Monarchy IMHO should not be wearing uniform. The Forces are being civilianised left right and centre, to the extent that now we are having to call up reservists for the most minor skirmish.
However, I am uncomfortable working alongside those who have no respect for our Head of State. The debate about getting rid of traditions is reaching silly proportions, and the danger is that if enough people winge and moan about them, some pratt at high level will take it as a good idea and kill off yet more traditions that go towards making us the finest Armed Forces in the world - still. We may not have the best kit or enough money, but whenever we are tasked with a job it is always done well.
We still have a world class reputation, so can we please stop trying to tear apart what little we do have left.
End of rant.
I accept that not everybody in the Armed forces is a raging Royalist. But those who do not believe in the Monarchy IMHO should not be wearing uniform. The Forces are being civilianised left right and centre, to the extent that now we are having to call up reservists for the most minor skirmish.
However, I am uncomfortable working alongside those who have no respect for our Head of State. The debate about getting rid of traditions is reaching silly proportions, and the danger is that if enough people winge and moan about them, some pratt at high level will take it as a good idea and kill off yet more traditions that go towards making us the finest Armed Forces in the world - still. We may not have the best kit or enough money, but whenever we are tasked with a job it is always done well.
We still have a world class reputation, so can we please stop trying to tear apart what little we do have left.
End of rant.
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FM, its not within your prerogative to overlook military indiscipline. If you are not saluted (and mean you, the holder of a commission) you ought to do something about it, rather than shrug it off.
Those personnel who do not salute you might not share your ideals about salutation. You are setting a bad example by accepting indiscipline. I'm not suggesting that a charge sheet entry is the answer, but a timely reprimand usually suffices.
Those personnel who do not salute you might not share your ideals about salutation. You are setting a bad example by accepting indiscipline. I'm not suggesting that a charge sheet entry is the answer, but a timely reprimand usually suffices.
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But with all due respent my friend, if in the same situation as i am, you'd probably think the same thing. Ok, i know its wrong for me not to bollock the life out of aircrew for not saluting, but in the end, its a gesture, thats all saluting is. We;re all one community in the end. I do agree with that it is respect for the monarch, and yes the commision shows i'm working for the queen, but everyone who salutes you or i is only saluting the commission that we all share. i'm not saying that its wrong for people to put there flat palm up to there eye brow, but in the end we're all serving the queen. Plus... do you know how hard it is for someone to salute while riding a bike?? I'm new to riding ( yes i know its wierd... being able to fly millions of £ worth of airplane but not a bike, but we have to learn some how) and i'd rather not let go if you know what i mean. But when walking around, i get salutes, lots of em, but the occasional one i do have to remind, but i don't get down there throats about it.
i do have mixed feelings about the subject, as since rolling out of IOT and having your first salute by those arses that have shouted at you for months does have an effect on ones self asteem. But if we all keep at it, as many of others have said, its kept a tradision that the British forces has kept since the begginning. Keep up the good work everyone, and i hope this doesn't get too out of hand.
Sorry to have got on your t1ts.
Felix
i do have mixed feelings about the subject, as since rolling out of IOT and having your first salute by those arses that have shouted at you for months does have an effect on ones self asteem. But if we all keep at it, as many of others have said, its kept a tradision that the British forces has kept since the begginning. Keep up the good work everyone, and i hope this doesn't get too out of hand.
Sorry to have got on your t1ts.
Felix
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Mr. SATCO, you've probably got different opinions on the subject, but let me have mine.
You've got a pretty cool job...you like it right?
I like and love mine. so why do we have to start an arguement?
-'I Hope no one else is offended by my' comments-
Felix
You've got a pretty cool job...you like it right?
I like and love mine. so why do we have to start an arguement?
-'I Hope no one else is offended by my' comments-
Felix
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There is nothing persay wrong with saluting it's just this "I am cool I charged someone "attitude which is pompous, the good thing is that military law has made such piffling charges unsustainable on orders so no jumped up little jerk can pull such infantile behavior on an "other rank".
Respect earned, remember that gents, and also the case off a very pompous artillery officer who on his day of leaving the Queens service was pursued by a bod who felt hard done by with regards to a "little charge" instigated by said Officer to wit a duffing up followed, respect does follow you outside, I love reunions when some bod from lower down the food chain thanks a former OC and means it, it doesn't mean you have to toady to the guys, just be fair and decent
Respect earned, remember that gents, and also the case off a very pompous artillery officer who on his day of leaving the Queens service was pursued by a bod who felt hard done by with regards to a "little charge" instigated by said Officer to wit a duffing up followed, respect does follow you outside, I love reunions when some bod from lower down the food chain thanks a former OC and means it, it doesn't mean you have to toady to the guys, just be fair and decent
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Charging an airman for not saluting is infantile! So when would you charge?! I agree that not every occasion demands a charge, most do not, but remember that (in Kaa's case) our cpls have served for at least half a dozen years, in most cases many more, before they get their tapes, and should know better. Kaa's cpl was trying it on and he was absolutely right to charge him.
To follow the theme on, we in the RAF do not charge enough. We far prefer to keep it in house using alternative methods to discipline. Why? The 252 is there to be used, why not use it? Why shy away from charging if an airman has done wrong? The Orderly Room procedure is a deterrent in itself, not only to stop potential perpetrators but also colleagues of the perpetrator who see him being dealt with publicly. This view is not based on 2 minutes service, 16 years and most as an OC.
As for FM, words fail me. Good question SATCO, it's his attitude that can give our aircrew a 'gash' label (that and walking around with hands in pockets all day). Aside from the importance of saluting that have already been identified, saluting and other traditions are what set us aside from civvy street. Long may it and they stay.
To follow the theme on, we in the RAF do not charge enough. We far prefer to keep it in house using alternative methods to discipline. Why? The 252 is there to be used, why not use it? Why shy away from charging if an airman has done wrong? The Orderly Room procedure is a deterrent in itself, not only to stop potential perpetrators but also colleagues of the perpetrator who see him being dealt with publicly. This view is not based on 2 minutes service, 16 years and most as an OC.
As for FM, words fail me. Good question SATCO, it's his attitude that can give our aircrew a 'gash' label (that and walking around with hands in pockets all day). Aside from the importance of saluting that have already been identified, saluting and other traditions are what set us aside from civvy street. Long may it and they stay.
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And you wonder why people leave the Air force!
If you charge any member of the Armed forces with anything now he/she can demand higher trial, if one of you nonces charged me I would go for a Court Marshall as we know that the armed forces are hardly going tio let that hit the news stands. get with the new millenium guys or get walking. To read such purile opinions of the gentry is quite an eye opener
It could only happen in the Air force
If you charge any member of the Armed forces with anything now he/she can demand higher trial, if one of you nonces charged me I would go for a Court Marshall as we know that the armed forces are hardly going tio let that hit the news stands. get with the new millenium guys or get walking. To read such purile opinions of the gentry is quite an eye opener
It could only happen in the Air force
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DJ
How wrong you are! One of my airmen did exactly that after being charged for a trivial but repeated offence. He withdrew his option for trial by Court Martial 4 months later when he realised it would cost him over a grand and he would still be found guilty and given an appropriate punishment!
What has the 21st century got to do with it? I don't remember being briefed that charges went out of the window with the new millenium. Good-discipline is fostered in many ways, one of which is an effective detterent, which in this case is the Orderly Room and appropriate punishment.
You REALLY think people are leaving the Service because they've been charged?! Put it another way though, if someone does leave the Service for that reason, then good. I wouldn't want to serve with anyone with such poor respect for discipline and loyalty.
How wrong you are! One of my airmen did exactly that after being charged for a trivial but repeated offence. He withdrew his option for trial by Court Martial 4 months later when he realised it would cost him over a grand and he would still be found guilty and given an appropriate punishment!
What has the 21st century got to do with it? I don't remember being briefed that charges went out of the window with the new millenium. Good-discipline is fostered in many ways, one of which is an effective detterent, which in this case is the Orderly Room and appropriate punishment.
You REALLY think people are leaving the Service because they've been charged?! Put it another way though, if someone does leave the Service for that reason, then good. I wouldn't want to serve with anyone with such poor respect for discipline and loyalty.
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Someone (think it was kbf1) mentioned that army officers have embroidered cap badges and non commissioned types have metal ones.
In my regiment (RSignals TA), the RSM and his TA equivalent both wear embroidered cap badges. In my experience (limited), it is a very bad idea to salute either of these two fellows. The RSM, in particular, scares the **** out of me
.
In my regiment (RSignals TA), the RSM and his TA equivalent both wear embroidered cap badges. In my experience (limited), it is a very bad idea to salute either of these two fellows. The RSM, in particular, scares the **** out of me
.
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Udeski
“To follow the theme on, we in the RAF do not charge enough. We far prefer to keep it in house using alternative methods to discipline.”
Let us go a little further then, how about comparing damage to Mess fixtures and fittings compared with damage to same in NAAFI bar by respective members. I know one will result in the use of a 252 but what of the other.
“To follow the theme on, we in the RAF do not charge enough. We far prefer to keep it in house using alternative methods to discipline.”
Let us go a little further then, how about comparing damage to Mess fixtures and fittings compared with damage to same in NAAFI bar by respective members. I know one will result in the use of a 252 but what of the other.
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Thanks for pointing out the typo, Samuel (spelt correctlt further up you'll notice). I am not het here to be adored, I am here to get the best out of my troops. Upholding discipline has nothing to do with 'instilling so much doubt and insecurity on their abilities'. You've misunderstood my point.
Oh I See: I agree, double standards are abhorrent and only serve to foster a sense of 'us & them'.
Oh I See: I agree, double standards are abhorrent and only serve to foster a sense of 'us & them'.
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Udeski - What do you think i do all day?? walk round with my peak off to one side, hands in pockets and waving to everyone as a strole home.. Get the facts right. The only time i see people at NCO or squaddy level is on the way home. We run i tight ship, and in the end the RAF is a team, we shouldn't be charging people for not saluting. As DJ said, they can take you to court. Whats the point in us all doing this when we're all working as one? I'm not sure what branches you're all in, but depending on which ones you're in calls for a bit more discipline. True? I thikn that a grudging reminder should be called for, and if they carry on, then a charge. And if you feel like it ...maybe a bollocking by there OC.
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Udeski - What do you think i do all day?? walk round with my peak off to one side, hands in pockets and waving to everyone as a strole home.. Get the facts right. The only time i see people at NCO or squaddy level is on the way home. We run i tight ship, and in the end the RAF is a team, we shouldn't be charging people for not saluting. As DJ said, they can take you to court. Whats the point in us all doing this when we're all working as one? I'm not sure what branches you're all in, but depending on which ones you're in calls for a bit more discipline. True? I thikn that a grudging reminder should be called for, and if they carry on, then a charge. And if you feel like it ...maybe a bollocking by there OC.
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Rusedski - you are a tw@t. I'm not an officer but I work all day, every day with them, betting my life on them as they do me. None of them get called sir or saluted and none of them address me by my rank - but we get the job done and I bet we do it a sight better than you. Wake up and realise that your lot went out with the ark. It's a team effort, a team of which you are not a member.