Has saluting had its day?
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 276
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
HV...Ignore the meatbombs, after throwing themselves out of aircraft and landing on their heads a few times, they wouldn't notice. Indeed you should salute everyone in the Rusting Lorry Club, neigh, you should bow down in supplication at your masters feet daring not to raise your eyes to the glories that behold you in the presence of those of us who walk in the light. Advice given. 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Ready to Depart
Age: 45
Posts: 291
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
kbf: You might get someone caught out there... All RAF cap badges are now embroidered!
And as for the RN hats, spot the difference: they have shiney peaks. In Army and RAF, only the ranks have shiney peaks - officers hats are material. Perhaps that's why they're not instantly recognised on land!
And as for the RN hats, spot the difference: they have shiney peaks. In Army and RAF, only the ranks have shiney peaks - officers hats are material. Perhaps that's why they're not instantly recognised on land!
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 69
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Saluting. What a bag of boll0cks that is. Even worse is when the tw@t says thankyou for it. Thanks for what? As a rule I avoid saluting at all costs by wearing a hat as little as I can or riding a bike. If I am forced into waving at some tosser just because he went to Sleaford tech I make damn sure he/she can tell from my facial expression that I resent every second of it. "Oh, but it's the Queen's Commission that you're saluting," they say. So f*cking what? I'd hardly describe myself as a staunch royalist.
Vive la revolution, power to the people and yes, I do have a chip on my shoulder about this. Why can't we just say hello? Tradition doesn't help me do my job any better.
Vive la revolution, power to the people and yes, I do have a chip on my shoulder about this. Why can't we just say hello? Tradition doesn't help me do my job any better.
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Down the road from RAF Coleby Grange.
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hengist,
Are you a wind-up? I infer from your derogatory and un-enlightened post, that you harbour a general dislike of officers. You may be surprised to learn that I do not gain a feeling of power, nor personal satisfaction from being saluted.
What do you hope to achieve by "avoiding saluting at all costs"? Are you a conscientious objector?
Going back to Yozzer's question, yes - you wave at "some to$$er" in recognition of the Queen's Commission. If you have a problem with that, then you shouldn't have joined, 'cos we all swore the same oath of allegiance; royalism has nothing to do with it. Whatever you think of the Sleaford Tech output, them's the rules: we salute, and it is right that we do it. Does throwing one up really make you feel so inferior that you have to "make damn sure he/she can tell from my facial expression that I resent every second of it"?
Grow up.
Blue.
[edited for puur spilling]
[ 13 October 2001: Message edited by: Blue Stuff ]
Are you a wind-up? I infer from your derogatory and un-enlightened post, that you harbour a general dislike of officers. You may be surprised to learn that I do not gain a feeling of power, nor personal satisfaction from being saluted.
What do you hope to achieve by "avoiding saluting at all costs"? Are you a conscientious objector?
Going back to Yozzer's question, yes - you wave at "some to$$er" in recognition of the Queen's Commission. If you have a problem with that, then you shouldn't have joined, 'cos we all swore the same oath of allegiance; royalism has nothing to do with it. Whatever you think of the Sleaford Tech output, them's the rules: we salute, and it is right that we do it. Does throwing one up really make you feel so inferior that you have to "make damn sure he/she can tell from my facial expression that I resent every second of it"?
Grow up.
Blue.
[edited for puur spilling]
[ 13 October 2001: Message edited by: Blue Stuff ]
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Age: 84
Posts: 897
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok, time for a bit of fundamental common sense methinks! While we don't want to return to a 1745 Directive which ordered," men not to pull off their hats when they pass an officer, or speak to him, but only to clap their hands to their hats and bow as they pass by", we should continue to acknowledge the salute as representative of the oldest traditions of the military, which should never be confused with a servile act.
The salute and other military compliments have their own raison d`etre. They encourage a proper pride in the uniform, they effectively combine the needs of a disciplined force with the respect due to superiors, and at the same time elevate the airman in his own eyes by reminding him that he is a member of a professional body.
Dump the salute by all means. Then the uniform. Then you can turn up for duty if an when you feel like it. Then you become a rabble, not an armed force.
The salute and other military compliments have their own raison d`etre. They encourage a proper pride in the uniform, they effectively combine the needs of a disciplined force with the respect due to superiors, and at the same time elevate the airman in his own eyes by reminding him that he is a member of a professional body.
Dump the salute by all means. Then the uniform. Then you can turn up for duty if an when you feel like it. Then you become a rabble, not an armed force.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: just below the rim
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
does having a commision make an officer superior? Perhaps a bit more information at the careers office and not some posh school and we might have a few more "superiors" ambling along.
And i thought it was weapons that made an armed force, not crispy uniforms, otherwise we had better watch out for the brownies and girl guides.
And i thought it was weapons that made an armed force, not crispy uniforms, otherwise we had better watch out for the brownies and girl guides.
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Death Star
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sam,
<Dump the salute by all means. Then the uniform. Then you can turn up for duty if an when you feel like it. Then you become a rabble, not an armed force.>
Hey, I do that anyway! Im not a rabble!
But seriously. I've been in long enough to be able to salute without resenting the fact. Just upbrining I suppose?
Top tip, respect is earned not demanded. That poo poo's me off a tad when I'm told I should respect and be loyal to some total tool just cos he has an NVQ in underwater soot juggling! I respect a LEADER because he can LEAD. Need I go on?
Na, it's Saturtag and I have more interesting things to do with my Spaniel.
<Dump the salute by all means. Then the uniform. Then you can turn up for duty if an when you feel like it. Then you become a rabble, not an armed force.>
Hey, I do that anyway! Im not a rabble!
But seriously. I've been in long enough to be able to salute without resenting the fact. Just upbrining I suppose?
Top tip, respect is earned not demanded. That poo poo's me off a tad when I'm told I should respect and be loyal to some total tool just cos he has an NVQ in underwater soot juggling! I respect a LEADER because he can LEAD. Need I go on?
Na, it's Saturtag and I have more interesting things to do with my Spaniel.
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 276
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hengist, would you rather be told to f&^%$ off by an officer returning a salute? I would suggest if you resent having to salute that your resentment runs further than the act itself, and scrapping saluting would not resolve that issue. Next will be scrapping the officer's mess, calling officers "sir" and every other vestige of rank. Then perhaps you will be happy?
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Age: 84
Posts: 897
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Kent, you haven't the faintest notion of what the term "superior" means in military parlance; and no, being a commissioned officer does not make one superior, merely privileged.
Helmut, I suspect you to be a master at devil's advocation, but if you are genuinely resentful of saluting then a body exists which doesn't have to; they are called civilians.
You are however, absolutely correct in respect having to be earned. Sadly, there will always be those who can't appreciate that fact.
Helmut, I suspect you to be a master at devil's advocation, but if you are genuinely resentful of saluting then a body exists which doesn't have to; they are called civilians.
You are however, absolutely correct in respect having to be earned. Sadly, there will always be those who can't appreciate that fact.
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I once had an Airman Charged, for not saluting! Church Fenton 1988.
I was an APO, He was a Cpl:
He said: "I don't have to salute you, Cos, you are ONLY a student"
I said: "Do you recognise rank Cpl"?
Cpl: "Yes Sir, but I don't have to salute you, because you're only a sudent pilot"
Me: "Do you recognise me as an officer?"
Cpl: "Yes"
Me: " I'm Going to charge you........."
As It Should Be.
Kaa
I was an APO, He was a Cpl:
He said: "I don't have to salute you, Cos, you are ONLY a student"
I said: "Do you recognise rank Cpl"?
Cpl: "Yes Sir, but I don't have to salute you, because you're only a sudent pilot"
Me: "Do you recognise me as an officer?"
Cpl: "Yes"
Me: " I'm Going to charge you........."
As It Should Be.
Kaa
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Angleterre
Posts: 252
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Kaa050
If you were a "real" officer then debate would never have got to this stage, as it happens you tell a tale which justifies the thread. Since starting this thread I have read with interest the various responses and had plenty of time to consider my own opinion.
There are senior officers who I salute with sincere admiration for their leadership. Note that Queenie does not feature here, but discipline and respect does.
Sadly a trend of late has been for the good guys to leave, which leaves us lead by more than one to55er. I salute these people because convention says that I must, but a smart salute accompanied by the time of day regardless of personal opinion.
If I had witnessed to scene that Kaa050 mentioned, they I would have given up.
Similaritiies can be drawn with perm staff at Finningley and now Cranwell calling SNCO FTS students "Plastic". I once saw an ex Cpl RAFP acting Sgt student direct a JT straight to the guardroom without further debate, and the shockwave through the unit lasted a long time. Standing arguing about whether a salute is justified, You "Sir" (Kaa050) did NOT deserve it!
Yozzer
PS
The JT had to write a formal letter of apology to the Sgt by way of "settlement". The Sgt was "asked*" if such a response would satisfactorily avoid formal charge proceedings. *Read as directed
If you were a "real" officer then debate would never have got to this stage, as it happens you tell a tale which justifies the thread. Since starting this thread I have read with interest the various responses and had plenty of time to consider my own opinion.
There are senior officers who I salute with sincere admiration for their leadership. Note that Queenie does not feature here, but discipline and respect does.
Sadly a trend of late has been for the good guys to leave, which leaves us lead by more than one to55er. I salute these people because convention says that I must, but a smart salute accompanied by the time of day regardless of personal opinion.
If I had witnessed to scene that Kaa050 mentioned, they I would have given up.
Similaritiies can be drawn with perm staff at Finningley and now Cranwell calling SNCO FTS students "Plastic". I once saw an ex Cpl RAFP acting Sgt student direct a JT straight to the guardroom without further debate, and the shockwave through the unit lasted a long time. Standing arguing about whether a salute is justified, You "Sir" (Kaa050) did NOT deserve it!
Yozzer
PS
The JT had to write a formal letter of apology to the Sgt by way of "settlement". The Sgt was "asked*" if such a response would satisfactorily avoid formal charge proceedings. *Read as directed
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Down the road from RAF Coleby Grange.
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
HEIGHTSGOODBACK5,
Damn right. What's your name, soldier? We need more of your type!
Samuel, Helmut, Yozzer et al,
Here, here. Compliments should be paid irrespective of what one thinks of the recipient. Going through IOT, we saluted some absolute imbeciles (but a hell of a lot more good guys), but we did it without distinction . As Sam says, the reason should be pride, self-discipline and professionalism. As to respect - well, there are lots of ways of saying "Sir", all with their own meaning, if you get my drift.
Personal respect must indeed be earned through actions, but the respect shown through the paying of compliments must reflect something else. Otherwise, to take an extreme example, we would all have walked past a number of very senior officers involved in a certain helicopter accident enquiry, with our hands firmly in our pockets. Yozzer - I think we'll have to agree to disagree over the 'Queenie issue'!
As to Kaa050's episode at Fenton, it sounds as if both parties should have acted differently. Charging somebody for failing to salute is rather harsh, although as Roland Pulfrew suggested earlier, failure to do anything would send out the wrong signals. I dunno - I'm still a very shiny new ossifer; what would you oldies have done?
Regards,
Blue.
Damn right. What's your name, soldier? We need more of your type!
Samuel, Helmut, Yozzer et al,
Here, here. Compliments should be paid irrespective of what one thinks of the recipient. Going through IOT, we saluted some absolute imbeciles (but a hell of a lot more good guys), but we did it without distinction . As Sam says, the reason should be pride, self-discipline and professionalism. As to respect - well, there are lots of ways of saying "Sir", all with their own meaning, if you get my drift.
Personal respect must indeed be earned through actions, but the respect shown through the paying of compliments must reflect something else. Otherwise, to take an extreme example, we would all have walked past a number of very senior officers involved in a certain helicopter accident enquiry, with our hands firmly in our pockets. Yozzer - I think we'll have to agree to disagree over the 'Queenie issue'!
As to Kaa050's episode at Fenton, it sounds as if both parties should have acted differently. Charging somebody for failing to salute is rather harsh, although as Roland Pulfrew suggested earlier, failure to do anything would send out the wrong signals. I dunno - I'm still a very shiny new ossifer; what would you oldies have done?
Regards,
Blue.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Spanish Riviera
Posts: 637
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To those of you who don't like it, what's the big deal with saluting? It's a small bit of tradition and a demonstration of respect to the Monarch (yes, even President Blair). IMHO, those who waste time arguing the case for binning saluting don't deserve to call themselves military.
PS. Any airman who trys to argue the case with me having to failed to salute a Commissioned Ofiicer will be charged.
PS. Any airman who trys to argue the case with me having to failed to salute a Commissioned Ofiicer will be charged.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Age: 84
Posts: 897
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
KAA, there are (nearly) always alternatives to charging people, though in your case and at that point in time, you probably hadn't grasped that fact!You might have gained considerably more respect for your APO rank had you taken the trouble to explain why he was wrong.
Blue Stuff correctly observes that there is more than one way to skin a cat in respect of showing displeasure with some of the ladder climbers and incompetents. Subtle nuance with the word "Sir', and an ever so slight exagerration of a salute were my personal favourites. But then I had "Doesn't suffer fools gladly" written on every annual report I had, all but one of the 25!
Helmut, no offence intended mate!
[ 14 October 2001: Message edited by: Samuel ]
Blue Stuff correctly observes that there is more than one way to skin a cat in respect of showing displeasure with some of the ladder climbers and incompetents. Subtle nuance with the word "Sir', and an ever so slight exagerration of a salute were my personal favourites. But then I had "Doesn't suffer fools gladly" written on every annual report I had, all but one of the 25!
Helmut, no offence intended mate!
[ 14 October 2001: Message edited by: Samuel ]
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: England
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gees! Is this all you cabbage-kitters have got to worry about right now??
Saluting is a military reality. Those of you who don't like it - deal with it or seek alternative employment.
Those who do like it stop trying to justify something that, in the present climate, actually isn't terribly important.
Did any of you ever wonder why the military is so regularly satirised??
Saluting is a military reality. Those of you who don't like it - deal with it or seek alternative employment.
Those who do like it stop trying to justify something that, in the present climate, actually isn't terribly important.
Did any of you ever wonder why the military is so regularly satirised??
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Geriatrica, UK
Posts: 1,003
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Take it easy PR! These guys can't talk about the "hard stuff" here and it's interesting to get the views of the different Services. The thread's got a lot more mileage than I would have thought.
I can link Kaa's post and Samuels reply.
In my Off Cdt days a course mate walked (marched) past the Stn Cdr who had more rows of medals than the whole of today's Army, Navy and AF Boards put together. He forgot to salute. The Gp Capt called him back and gently explained the error of my chum's ways and went on his way.
The whole event was watched by the SWO who stopped my chum and said "Thank your lucky stars you didn't do that to an Acting Pilot Officer!"
Towards the end of my 30+ years, I took a dislike to the process of saluting between junior officers and Major/Sqn Ldr/Lt Cdr equivalents. Often they were doing the same job on level terms. It seemed like an unnecessary anachronism.
I can link Kaa's post and Samuels reply.
In my Off Cdt days a course mate walked (marched) past the Stn Cdr who had more rows of medals than the whole of today's Army, Navy and AF Boards put together. He forgot to salute. The Gp Capt called him back and gently explained the error of my chum's ways and went on his way.
The whole event was watched by the SWO who stopped my chum and said "Thank your lucky stars you didn't do that to an Acting Pilot Officer!"
Towards the end of my 30+ years, I took a dislike to the process of saluting between junior officers and Major/Sqn Ldr/Lt Cdr equivalents. Often they were doing the same job on level terms. It seemed like an unnecessary anachronism.
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: down sarrf
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You really are a pompous bunch of A**ses, I have never heard such guff in all my sheet changing. People get saluted for holding a commission, if the degree of smartness at which it was delivered was indicative of how much RESPECT their was for the receipient you lot would get an Ugandan Sewage Corps limp wrister.
You need a few years in the ranks to teach you lot a few things!
FALL OUT, end of bo99icking
You need a few years in the ranks to teach you lot a few things!
FALL OUT, end of bo99icking
Just beating the air into submission!
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Saluting is part of military ethos. Respect has to be earned, it does not come with the commission. Look after your blokes and they will (might) respect you. For once FRDJ, we agree, one more spicey old chap, hic!