counter-insurgency (COIN) aircraft comeback?
Salute!
Long time reading this thread, but I agree that the Tucano has the inside track.
No substitute for actual time in the field and actual combat.
WRT to the A-1........... I flew the "COIN" A-37 in its early days ( see Combat Dragon). By the time USAF folded up all attack squads in-country, the A-37 of the 8th squad folded up in October 1972. It was the last, and had been for more than a year.
We flew over 70,000 sorties in the A-37 from 1967 to 1972 and only had about 2 dozen airframe losses and 13 pilot losses. All you folks that like the Hawg and the "low and slow" tactic should re-evaluate. Nowadays you can heve great accuracy without dropping until you see the whites of their eyes. Nevertheless, getting down close had morale boosts for the good guys and it also helps getting a fix on who is who if your sensors are tits-up.
In a very low threat scenario the Tucano should do really well. Hell, my old Dragonfly would kick ass.
The problem for the U.S. and other countries that are trying "to help" is expending resources that will not help "the cause". That's $$ and most importantly, people!!! If you have to "win the hearts and minds", then you need not apply, as the other side has already won and most of the "%$# hole" countries will likely never see things the way you do until major changes in government and/or religious factors come into play.
My Viet students and the old pilots I helped there had no problem with "hearts and minds". It was a combo of the government "establishment' and the general attitude of the populace that had gone thru colonial rule and then a failed government since 1954. They didn't realize what a truly free country offered as long as the government let them alone and they could grow chickens, harvest rice and catch fish.
I step off my sopa box.
Gums....
Long time reading this thread, but I agree that the Tucano has the inside track.
No substitute for actual time in the field and actual combat.
WRT to the A-1........... I flew the "COIN" A-37 in its early days ( see Combat Dragon). By the time USAF folded up all attack squads in-country, the A-37 of the 8th squad folded up in October 1972. It was the last, and had been for more than a year.
We flew over 70,000 sorties in the A-37 from 1967 to 1972 and only had about 2 dozen airframe losses and 13 pilot losses. All you folks that like the Hawg and the "low and slow" tactic should re-evaluate. Nowadays you can heve great accuracy without dropping until you see the whites of their eyes. Nevertheless, getting down close had morale boosts for the good guys and it also helps getting a fix on who is who if your sensors are tits-up.
In a very low threat scenario the Tucano should do really well. Hell, my old Dragonfly would kick ass.
The problem for the U.S. and other countries that are trying "to help" is expending resources that will not help "the cause". That's $$ and most importantly, people!!! If you have to "win the hearts and minds", then you need not apply, as the other side has already won and most of the "%$# hole" countries will likely never see things the way you do until major changes in government and/or religious factors come into play.
My Viet students and the old pilots I helped there had no problem with "hearts and minds". It was a combo of the government "establishment' and the general attitude of the populace that had gone thru colonial rule and then a failed government since 1954. They didn't realize what a truly free country offered as long as the government let them alone and they could grow chickens, harvest rice and catch fish.
I step off my sopa box.
Gums....
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Interesting article in this weeks Economist backs Gums.
The French and others are battering away in Mali. They can keep the rebels out of the main towns and the South but make no progress elsewhere as the government is disliked and distrust ed and hasn't been seen thereabouts in12 years
The French and others are battering away in Mali. They can keep the rebels out of the main towns and the South but make no progress elsewhere as the government is disliked and distrust ed and hasn't been seen thereabouts in12 years
TNX, Harry.
Yep, the lack of confidence or support or whatever of the "government" is a biggie.
I look at the 'stan and I see no solid, central government as far back as Marco Polo and further. I had two students from the 'stan, and they were different as to their view of the central government, such as it was or wasn't.
My Vee students in the A-37 were mostly pilots that wanted to bomb the VC and North Vee invaders. However, they were very distrustful of the existing regime. They also could see the average "man on the street" attitude toward the Saigon government.
Lottsa aspects concerning insurgency and how to "help" a good cause. I was there and I still can't figure out how I could have helped.
Gums sends...
Yep, the lack of confidence or support or whatever of the "government" is a biggie.
I look at the 'stan and I see no solid, central government as far back as Marco Polo and further. I had two students from the 'stan, and they were different as to their view of the central government, such as it was or wasn't.
My Vee students in the A-37 were mostly pilots that wanted to bomb the VC and North Vee invaders. However, they were very distrustful of the existing regime. They also could see the average "man on the street" attitude toward the Saigon government.
Lottsa aspects concerning insurgency and how to "help" a good cause. I was there and I still can't figure out how I could have helped.
Gums sends...
I was at Barksdale in 1979 flying the Vulcan during GIANT VOICE 79, the SAC Bomb/Nav competition. Also on the base were some AFRES A-37 Super Tweets; talking to some of the pilots over drinks in the O-club (served by Mister Charles Baker*, of course!), I asked if there was any chance of a trip. They tried, but 'higher HQ' said no 
. But I did get a trip in a B-52G, which was...interesting!
The AFRES guys told me that the main issue they had with the A-37 was that on hot days in Loozyana, even the 11600' runway wasn't long enough when carrying all those drop tanks - if they lost an engine during take-off there wasn't enough stopping distance as the A-37 brakes weren't particularly good. "T-38 engines, T-37 brakes" was how they described it.
*Charles W Baker passed away at the end of 2017 at the ripe old age of 86. RIP. He will be sadly missed by the many thousands of people who he served at the O Club during the 60+ years of his service.
. But I did get a trip in a B-52G, which was...interesting!The AFRES guys told me that the main issue they had with the A-37 was that on hot days in Loozyana, even the 11600' runway wasn't long enough when carrying all those drop tanks - if they lost an engine during take-off there wasn't enough stopping distance as the A-37 brakes weren't particularly good. "T-38 engines, T-37 brakes" was how they described it.
*Charles W Baker passed away at the end of 2017 at the ripe old age of 86. RIP. He will be sadly missed by the many thousands of people who he served at the O Club during the 60+ years of his service.
Barksdale
I stopped off at Barksdale AFB on a road trip with work last year to visit the 8th Air Force museum (they had a Vulcan parked in plain sight from the road).
Sadly their website failed to mention (at least it certainly wasn’t obvious to me) that it is only open to base personnel or sponsored guests.
I tried to point out (politely, this is America we’re talking about) that, as a serving hofficer in her Majesty’s Royal Air Force, I should be allowed to look at one of our former aircraft.
No luck unfortunately. So we went to Texarkana just so I could say we’d been there. My advice is not to bother. It’s rubbish!
BV
Sadly their website failed to mention (at least it certainly wasn’t obvious to me) that it is only open to base personnel or sponsored guests.
I tried to point out (politely, this is America we’re talking about) that, as a serving hofficer in her Majesty’s Royal Air Force, I should be allowed to look at one of our former aircraft.
No luck unfortunately. So we went to Texarkana just so I could say we’d been there. My advice is not to bother. It’s rubbish!
BV
Their website states:
Nowhere does it state that non-US personnel aren't welcome....
As a result of current world events, the Barksdale Global Power Museum is performing the following safeguards for our visitors:
•A Government issued ID, (Drivers License, Passport etc.) is required to gain entry at the gate entrance.
•All vehicles are subject to search.
•No backpacks, briefcases or large bags will be allowed in any buildings.
•Visitors please sign in upon entering the museum.
•A Government issued ID, (Drivers License, Passport etc.) is required to gain entry at the gate entrance.
•All vehicles are subject to search.
•No backpacks, briefcases or large bags will be allowed in any buildings.
•Visitors please sign in upon entering the museum.
It’s not just me then?! The gate staff were typically polite but inflexible in the usual way.
We went quite a long distance out of our way to visit as well. Still we were in a 5.0 V8 Mustang GT though so driving wasn’t a chore.
BV
We went quite a long distance out of our way to visit as well. Still we were in a 5.0 V8 Mustang GT though so driving wasn’t a chore.
BV
Interesting developments going on in South Africa if the publicity on the Paramount Ahrlac/Mwari programme is to be believed. Two , including the production prototype, are now flying:
"This year the factory is expected to produce between four and six Ahrlacs, ramping up to between 18 and 24 in 2020 and thereafter reaching the planned maximum of 36. Although there are launch customers for the Ahrlac (production has been sold out for the next five years), these have not been named"
"This year the factory is expected to produce between four and six Ahrlacs, ramping up to between 18 and 24 in 2020 and thereafter reaching the planned maximum of 36. Although there are launch customers for the Ahrlac (production has been sold out for the next five years), these have not been named"
Salute!
I have a hard time with the A-37 needing more than about 5,000 feet to get up, even at max gross weight. Something doesn't compute.
At Bien Hoa, Pleiku, England AFB and Barksdale a decent loadout was two tanks, two BLU-1 napes, 2 x MK-82 500 pounders and 2 x MK-81 250lb "lady fingers". No problem at 35 or 40 deg C. So I feel the reservists were joking.
Pleiku was 2,400 feet elevation and the rwy was 6,000 feet more or less. I flew from there with the load above from Christmas 1967 to March of 1968. No problems. The four fuel tanks on the "OA-37" don't come close to maxing out the weight or drag we flew with.
Lastly, I was an FCF pilot at England AFB and with just enuf gas in the tips and drop tanks to see if they were feeding we could get airborne in about 800 feet and then climb at 30 degrees. Biggest problem was getting gear up before airloads got too high. That sucker was more overpowered than the Viper.
The long pole in the tent was stopping distance, and the small brakes were a factor if aborting at rotation. We did have one go off the other end at Bien Hoa trying to stop, and that RWY was about like Barksdale's. He actually got up, and set back down versus cleaning the wings and pressing on with one good engine. And recall that we routinely shut one down to save gas when loitering, even with the heavy loadout
Too bad about all the security at Barksdale, but some bases are worse than others after those towers went down and we are still fooling around over in the sandbox. Ditto for not getting a ride, as you would have loved that little beast.
Gums sends...
I have a hard time with the A-37 needing more than about 5,000 feet to get up, even at max gross weight. Something doesn't compute.
At Bien Hoa, Pleiku, England AFB and Barksdale a decent loadout was two tanks, two BLU-1 napes, 2 x MK-82 500 pounders and 2 x MK-81 250lb "lady fingers". No problem at 35 or 40 deg C. So I feel the reservists were joking.
Pleiku was 2,400 feet elevation and the rwy was 6,000 feet more or less. I flew from there with the load above from Christmas 1967 to March of 1968. No problems. The four fuel tanks on the "OA-37" don't come close to maxing out the weight or drag we flew with.
Lastly, I was an FCF pilot at England AFB and with just enuf gas in the tips and drop tanks to see if they were feeding we could get airborne in about 800 feet and then climb at 30 degrees. Biggest problem was getting gear up before airloads got too high. That sucker was more overpowered than the Viper.
The long pole in the tent was stopping distance, and the small brakes were a factor if aborting at rotation. We did have one go off the other end at Bien Hoa trying to stop, and that RWY was about like Barksdale's. He actually got up, and set back down versus cleaning the wings and pressing on with one good engine. And recall that we routinely shut one down to save gas when loitering, even with the heavy loadout
Too bad about all the security at Barksdale, but some bases are worse than others after those towers went down and we are still fooling around over in the sandbox. Ditto for not getting a ride, as you would have loved that little beast.
Gums sends...
Hi gums - it wasn't the actual take-off distance which was the problem, it was the AFRES rules which apparently required that the take-off could be abandoned right up to rotation speed and the aircraft stopped before the upwind fence.
Yes, I'd love to have flown the A-37. One of the unsung heroes of the day!
Yes, I'd love to have flown the A-37. One of the unsung heroes of the day!
I seem to recall that the Greek Air Force was, about 10 years ago, buying an armed variant. Based on what I know about the T-6 (which was a joy to fly) I'd call it a glass cannon at best.
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Agreed.
As for a Cheap COIN aircraft, surely it all becomes dependent on the threat being encountered in the age of Manpads, cheap to buy may be attractive, but survivability becomes the key, armoured pilot tub, triple redundant spars, high wing protected engines and a semi retractable undercarriage are all traits the A10 had built in from the start, one does wonder how well a Tucano will stand up to any such punishment, cheaper they may be but if they are vulnerable is it cost effective?
As for a Cheap COIN aircraft, surely it all becomes dependent on the threat being encountered in the age of Manpads, cheap to buy may be attractive, but survivability becomes the key, armoured pilot tub, triple redundant spars, high wing protected engines and a semi retractable undercarriage are all traits the A10 had built in from the start, one does wonder how well a Tucano will stand up to any such punishment, cheaper they may be but if they are vulnerable is it cost effective?
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
A Tucano look a like for the COIN role is the 1940s Skyraider. A similar size and there the comparison ends. According it Wiki the MTOW of the one is almost 4 times that of the other.
The difference is one was designed for result and weapon carriage and the other as a cheap lightweight trainer.
The difference is one was designed for result and weapon carriage and the other as a cheap lightweight trainer.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Not sure what the last bit means in English.....
http://www.defensenews.com/air/2018/...t-to-continue/
US Air Force cancels remaining light-attack experiment flights, but effort will continue
WASHINGTON — The U.S. Air Force will not conclude the flying portion of its light-attack experiment after a June 22 aircraft crash resulted in the death of a pilot, a senior official announced Tuesday. However, Lt. Gen. Arnold Bunch, the Air Force’s top uniformed acquisition official, stressed that the experiment is not over and that — should service leaders decide to move forward with a program of record — its acquisition wing will be ready to initiate a competition for a new plane by the end of this year.
The Air Force is “working multiple fronts so that we can put an RFP [request for proposals] out” by December, Bunch said. “So right now, we’re still progressing down that path. I’ve not pulled back on the throttle on any way, shape or form in that area right now.”.......
To complete the experiment, the Air Force will gather further logistics and sustainment information from the contractors. It also plans to test a new exportable, commercial off-the-shelf network onboard surrogate aircraft to further prove out that capability.
“We got quite a bit of experimentation done in that area, we demonstrated that we could utilize it on those platforms,” he said. “Now what we’ll do is we’ll transition that onto some surrogate aircraft. We believe that is easily doable where we can collect the data off those and it will be applicable for what we’re trying to do with the light attack and coming up with an exportable network.”......
http://www.defensenews.com/air/2018/...t-to-continue/
US Air Force cancels remaining light-attack experiment flights, but effort will continue
WASHINGTON — The U.S. Air Force will not conclude the flying portion of its light-attack experiment after a June 22 aircraft crash resulted in the death of a pilot, a senior official announced Tuesday. However, Lt. Gen. Arnold Bunch, the Air Force’s top uniformed acquisition official, stressed that the experiment is not over and that — should service leaders decide to move forward with a program of record — its acquisition wing will be ready to initiate a competition for a new plane by the end of this year.
The Air Force is “working multiple fronts so that we can put an RFP [request for proposals] out” by December, Bunch said. “So right now, we’re still progressing down that path. I’ve not pulled back on the throttle on any way, shape or form in that area right now.”.......
To complete the experiment, the Air Force will gather further logistics and sustainment information from the contractors. It also plans to test a new exportable, commercial off-the-shelf network onboard surrogate aircraft to further prove out that capability.
“We got quite a bit of experimentation done in that area, we demonstrated that we could utilize it on those platforms,” he said. “Now what we’ll do is we’ll transition that onto some surrogate aircraft. We believe that is easily doable where we can collect the data off those and it will be applicable for what we’re trying to do with the light attack and coming up with an exportable network.”......
Given that "adapted" aircraft almost always involve too many compromises and lose sight of the core mission requirements I tend to thing that an all-new design would be a better bet. I do wonder if a variation on the SABA (P1233/5) concept would make a good COIN platform.
Being a blank sheet of paper design it would need fewer compromises, but the raw performance (size and weight of a Sea Fury but with more than double the power) should give it good short-field characteristics, the large number of weapon stations should allow a flexible mission load and the fuselage configuration is just screaming out for a mixed cannon/minigun installation under he cockpit floor.
€0.00006 supplied,
PDR
Being a blank sheet of paper design it would need fewer compromises, but the raw performance (size and weight of a Sea Fury but with more than double the power) should give it good short-field characteristics, the large number of weapon stations should allow a flexible mission load and the fuselage configuration is just screaming out for a mixed cannon/minigun installation under he cockpit floor.
€0.00006 supplied,
PDR
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
https://www.defensenews.com/2019/05/...-an-award-too/
Air Force to give Sierra Nevada Corp. a sole-source contract for light-attack planes, but Textron will also get an award
WASHINGTON — The U.S. Air Force on Wednesday stated its intent to sole source A-29 Super Tucanos from Sierra Nevada Corp. and Embraer. But a similar solicitation for Textron’s AT-6 Wolverine will be forthcoming, an Air Force spokeswoman confirmed. The Air Force intends to put out a final solicitation to the SNC-Embraer team this month and will award a contract by the end of the fiscal year, according to a May 8 notice on FedBizOpps.
Air Force to give Sierra Nevada Corp. a sole-source contract for light-attack planes, but Textron will also get an award
WASHINGTON — The U.S. Air Force on Wednesday stated its intent to sole source A-29 Super Tucanos from Sierra Nevada Corp. and Embraer. But a similar solicitation for Textron’s AT-6 Wolverine will be forthcoming, an Air Force spokeswoman confirmed. The Air Force intends to put out a final solicitation to the SNC-Embraer team this month and will award a contract by the end of the fiscal year, according to a May 8 notice on FedBizOpps.
Er, so it's NOT a sole source contract then?