counter-insurgency (COIN) aircraft comeback?
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In counter-insurgency, you are just trying to take out the bad guys - although taking them out usually helps. Counter-insurgency is also about winning the hearts and minds of the populace. While 500-pound bombs with precision guidance can kill bad guys - and have been used by the United States and Israel in Iraq and the Gaza Strip - they also cause a lot of collateral damage. That tends to cause PR problems.
This is where the lighter, slower, COIN aircraft come in handy. The lighter weapons they use can often be aimed more precisely, usually due to the slower speed of the aircraft. These weapons are much less likely to cause collateral damage. A standard Mark 82 500-pound bomb usually carries about 200 pounds of high explosives. That is a pretty big bang - and in addition to taking out the room a sniper or machine-gunner is in, it tends to destroy the rest of the building and damage neighboring buildings. A 2.75-inch Hydra rocket usually only has a 15-pound warhead. That is usually enough to do the job, and it won't bother the neighbours that much.
One other benefit that new counter-insurgency planes would bring to the table is permitting the use of precision-guided missiles like the Hellfire. That missile has a range of about 8km, can be laser-guided or use millimeter-wave radar. The Hellfire has a 20-pound warhead. Currently, the Hellfire is primarily carried by attack helicopters, which have been vulnerable to RPGs and surface-to-air missiles. COIN aircraft are faster than helicopters, and harder to get a bead on. COIN aircraft can also get to a given place faster than helicopters, which can only go about 300 km/hr at most.
This is where the lighter, slower, COIN aircraft come in handy. The lighter weapons they use can often be aimed more precisely, usually due to the slower speed of the aircraft. These weapons are much less likely to cause collateral damage. A standard Mark 82 500-pound bomb usually carries about 200 pounds of high explosives. That is a pretty big bang - and in addition to taking out the room a sniper or machine-gunner is in, it tends to destroy the rest of the building and damage neighboring buildings. A 2.75-inch Hydra rocket usually only has a 15-pound warhead. That is usually enough to do the job, and it won't bother the neighbours that much.
One other benefit that new counter-insurgency planes would bring to the table is permitting the use of precision-guided missiles like the Hellfire. That missile has a range of about 8km, can be laser-guided or use millimeter-wave radar. The Hellfire has a 20-pound warhead. Currently, the Hellfire is primarily carried by attack helicopters, which have been vulnerable to RPGs and surface-to-air missiles. COIN aircraft are faster than helicopters, and harder to get a bead on. COIN aircraft can also get to a given place faster than helicopters, which can only go about 300 km/hr at most.
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Could we maybe see a HEAVLY ARMED Osprey?
I know its still going thru deployment trials, but IF they could make it work , would it not tick all the boxes? speed , armement , with a troop carrying role? SAR-Medi vac role to boot ?????
I know its still going thru deployment trials, but IF they could make it work , would it not tick all the boxes? speed , armement , with a troop carrying role? SAR-Medi vac role to boot ?????
You could buy a whole squadron of Tucanos for the cost of a single Osprey.
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Nick - you make some good points about strategy, although I must disagree with the assertion that any such COIN aircraft would become an collander - a Tucano, say, is a faster target than say an Apache, and would loiter longer and carry more ordnance that said heli - proving a better middle ground between a gunship and a fast jet. I really don't think it would be as vulnerable as you state.
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Hmmm... this time the thread I was looking for was there:
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...r-tucanos.html
Which contains these links:
Defense Tech: Secret Program Works to Field SEAL Plane
Defense Tech: COIN Air Force on its Way
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...r-tucanos.html
Which contains these links:
Defense Tech: Secret Program Works to Field SEAL Plane
Defense Tech: COIN Air Force on its Way
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Originally Posted by larssnowpharter
OV 10 anyone?
Boeing considers restarting OV-10 production after 23-year hiatus
Next step is a combat trial
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An article in "Flight" a few weeks back looked at COIN roles and referenced a USAF study post ?Korean War? which showed that the COIN ircraft (principally the Skyraider) was 10 times as effective as a jet at a fraction of the cost. Trouble was the loss of crew was a lot higher......
so you have a choice - very effective cheap ground support is possible as long as you can put up with the casualties,................
I'm sure the guys on the ground would suggest losing a few pilots is a small price to pay to save a lot of infantry but I'm not sure the USAF sees it that way........
so you have a choice - very effective cheap ground support is possible as long as you can put up with the casualties,................
I'm sure the guys on the ground would suggest losing a few pilots is a small price to pay to save a lot of infantry but I'm not sure the USAF sees it that way........
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
HH, as a plan I would agree but in reality, where the guys on the ground are danger close the airman has frequently stood in to danger even at risk to themselves.
Nick Richardson in 1994 is a British case in point. Then in AFG there are plenty of instances with Apache and Chinook both standing in to danger when prudence would suggest otherwise.
Plan for the worst and hope for the best. Planning a 'soft' coin ac expecting to lose some is not planning for the worst.
Nick Richardson in 1994 is a British case in point. Then in AFG there are plenty of instances with Apache and Chinook both standing in to danger when prudence would suggest otherwise.
Plan for the worst and hope for the best. Planning a 'soft' coin ac expecting to lose some is not planning for the worst.
I am thinking it is more some "commonsense" returning to the DOD.
Why do you need an F-16/F-18/F-35 to put "hate" on bad guys in a low to no threat area?
Why do you need an F-16/F-18/F-35 to put "hate" on bad guys in a low to no threat area?
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You are of course correct Pontius - people put their lives in danger to help others without being asked in just about any armed forces
but I think the US Study - which I must try and dig out tonight -was more one of these Cost/Benefit things - looking the systemic issues. Yes putting in more COIN aircraft would have a very positive effect on the whole USAF/Army ability to take out the enemy BUT there is a cost and it's in human lives
Tough call TBH
but I think the US Study - which I must try and dig out tonight -was more one of these Cost/Benefit things - looking the systemic issues. Yes putting in more COIN aircraft would have a very positive effect on the whole USAF/Army ability to take out the enemy BUT there is a cost and it's in human lives
Tough call TBH
As you read down through this Report....one must keep in mind the various Threat Envelopes encountered during the span of the Vietnam War and also bear in mind that the AA Threat in South Vietnam other than Border Regions with Cambodia, Laos, and North Vietnam was quite different than in the North and Border Regions and the Ho Chi Minh Trail areas of neighboring countries.
An example of some Stats for the A-1 Sky Raider during the War:
266 Lost to all Causes
3 Lost due to Air to Air Combat (two lost to MIG 17's)
5 Lost to SAM's
But....two MIG 17's were bagged by A-1's.....for an equal trade off.
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/c016682.pdf
An example of some Stats for the A-1 Sky Raider during the War:
266 Lost to all Causes
3 Lost due to Air to Air Combat (two lost to MIG 17's)
5 Lost to SAM's
But....two MIG 17's were bagged by A-1's.....for an equal trade off.
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/c016682.pdf
Looks like the USAF OA-X competition will not involve a combat trial, but more of desk exercise between the AT-6 and Super Tucano
“Rather than do a combat demonstration, we have decided to work closely with industry to experiment with maintenance, data networking, and sensors with the two most promising light attack aircraft — the [Textron] AT-6 Wolverine and the [SNC-Embraer] A-29 Super Tucano,” said Wilson. “This will let us gather the data needed for a rapid procurement.”
USAF axes planned light attack combat demo | Jane's 360
“Rather than do a combat demonstration, we have decided to work closely with industry to experiment with maintenance, data networking, and sensors with the two most promising light attack aircraft — the [Textron] AT-6 Wolverine and the [SNC-Embraer] A-29 Super Tucano,” said Wilson. “This will let us gather the data needed for a rapid procurement.”
USAF axes planned light attack combat demo | Jane's 360
Who "lightly" attacks anything?
Looks like the USAF OA-X competition will not involve a combat trial, but more of desk exercise between the AT-6 and Super Tucano
“Rather than do a combat demonstration, we have decided to work closely with industry to experiment with maintenance, data networking, and sensors with the two most promising light attack aircraft — the [Textron] AT-6 Wolverine and the [SNC-Embraer] A-29 Super Tucano,” said Wilson. “This will let us gather the data needed for a rapid procurement.”
USAF axes planned light attack combat demo | Jane's 360
“Rather than do a combat demonstration, we have decided to work closely with industry to experiment with maintenance, data networking, and sensors with the two most promising light attack aircraft — the [Textron] AT-6 Wolverine and the [SNC-Embraer] A-29 Super Tucano,” said Wilson. “This will let us gather the data needed for a rapid procurement.”
USAF axes planned light attack combat demo | Jane's 360
Interesting this was announced the day before the Su25 shootdown.
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They will buy the Textron (if they buy anything) - it's largely made in the US.
Actually even today the ordnance loads carried by the Skyraider and its overall ruggedness are pretty impressive in my book............. if I was down on the ground you could do worse than see a SPAD overhead.
Arc
Actually even today the ordnance loads carried by the Skyraider and its overall ruggedness are pretty impressive in my book............. if I was down on the ground you could do worse than see a SPAD overhead.
Arc
Serendipity
I find it uncanny that in 2010 I participated in a QWI presentation as part of my Hawk QWI Course.
The subject was COIN aircraft. We used the Spad as our historical case study and considered aircraft such as Super Tucano, Texan 2 and the Air Tractor.
Interestingly we selected Texan 2 mainly due to its large scale US backing and potential for mixed load out. We touted it as dual use aircraft for training and Ops.
L3 are currently marketing a weaponised Air Tractor as a COIN aircraft.
Now I’m not suggesting for one second that anyone listened to us or that we started something in motion but it does prove that it wasn’t just us lowly scrotes that could see the obvious.
BV
The subject was COIN aircraft. We used the Spad as our historical case study and considered aircraft such as Super Tucano, Texan 2 and the Air Tractor.
Interestingly we selected Texan 2 mainly due to its large scale US backing and potential for mixed load out. We touted it as dual use aircraft for training and Ops.
L3 are currently marketing a weaponised Air Tractor as a COIN aircraft.
Now I’m not suggesting for one second that anyone listened to us or that we started something in motion but it does prove that it wasn’t just us lowly scrotes that could see the obvious.
BV