What is the purpose of a standards unit.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Oxon
Age: 66
Posts: 1,942
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Seldom...
I have no desire to get into a pi**ing contest with yourself, or anyone, however...
You appear to have made two quite distinct, and quite separate comments regarding myself in your postings. In post 33 I gave my opinion of a STANEVAL unit. You first replied in post 41, when you stated that it was
"quite obvious that one or two rather bitter and twisted chaps thought they were good enough to do the job but never quite made the grade when it came round to STANEVAL selection time"
I in turn replied to your comment, in post 43, that what seemed quite obvious to you was in fact wrong. IT IS WRONG! It is as simple as that. I have never wanted or desired or aspired to a posting to STANEVAL, considered myself suitable, applied or in any way attempted to be selected. Therefore it is WRONG that I "thought I was good enough to do the job but never quite made the grade...". Those are my own personal circumstances, and I think I am better placed to know them than you.
You now (post 44) appear to be making an entirely separate point, that I am wrong in my original assertions (post 33) because you work with an office with 7 decent individuals who work on STANEVAL. Well, good for you, but this in turn leads to further discussion.
First of all, since you share an office with 7 STANEVAL guys presumably you are STANEVAL yourself, and presumably therefore likely to defend the organization. Are you saying in post 44 that all of my comments in post 33 are incorrect, or just some of them?
I have been in the RAF flying game over 25 years, on more than one fleet. My comments made in post 33 are based on my observations over both those years and fleets. I have seen STANEVALS full of Spec Aircrew/PA Sqn Ldrs and senior Flt Lts, along with FS and Master Aircrew, who haven't been on a Sqn in years, and whose last posting was normally the OCU. The average age is normally 45 or older...
As an aside, how old are you (45+), are you a Master, what is the average age of the 7 people you share an office with, what ranks are they?
Recently on one fleet I watched the same old faces go around the OCU/STANEVAL loop for years, perhaps more noticeably so since 9/11. One was briefly posted back to a Sqn, with subsequent desert dets, but the teddy bear went out of the cot (I believe, but cannot be sure, that a PVR was threatened , and no there was no invalid wife, aunty on life support machine, etc ) and within 15-18 months they were back on the OCU. I won't be any more specific on an open forum.
Amongst all these more aged individuals, the "old boys" I was referring to, there is normally a sprinkling of youth, posted there as a career move. They are often promoted during their STANEVAL tour.
As for the nit picky approach to trapping that has been my personal experience in the last 25 years, along with such (unofficial) mantras as " ...you can't be assessed as above average until you have been on the fleet X years..." (insert value of X as deemed appropriate), and "...an above average operator wouldn't need to look that up...". As one particular example I was once criticised on a check ride for using a technique that 6 months later was being pushed as a fleet wide SOP, such is life. I don't consider myself bitter and twisted about it, it is just the way of "trappers". Yes I have had bad trapper rides on occasion, but I have also had more good ones, and have been assessed as above average on every type I have operated (not blowing my own trumpet - just trying to point out that my abilities have been fairly assessed over the years and therefore that I have no personal axe to grind on this basis).
My comments on post 33 were based on my observations throughout my flying career. You might well be on a more enlightened STANEVAL on your fleet, in which case you are fortunate. You might not agree with my observations and feel they don't reflect the world you inhabit, but they do reflect the worlds I have been in. I can't comment on your particular fleet, but I can tell you how the STANEVALS I have been exposed to over many years did/do work.
Three people replied to my comments. Two agreed totally and one, yourself (a STANEVAL member?), disagreed. To me that implies that some people out there at least have had similar experiences to myself, and recognize my comments, and no doubt some haven't. Perhaps whichever part of the AT world you currently work for (believe you were SH also at some point) has a more practical/pragmatic approach. Perhaps Loadies just make better trappers than other trades???
While you may disagree with my comments, or that they are truly representative of STANEVALs, it doesn't alter what I have actually observed and experienced throughout my RAF flying career.
I suggest we may simply have to agree to disagree on this one!!
Here's a question for you. Why do ex-trappers, who presumably have a wealth of accumulated knowledge to pass on, go back to the OCU, where they are mainly teaching ab-initios who don't yet have the ability or capacity to pick up anything more than the basics? Instead, why don't they go back to a front line Sqn to pass on their more in depth knowledge and help improve the calibre of the more experienced operators? I can think of several reasons why they don't....
I have no desire to get into a pi**ing contest with yourself, or anyone, however...
You appear to have made two quite distinct, and quite separate comments regarding myself in your postings. In post 33 I gave my opinion of a STANEVAL unit. You first replied in post 41, when you stated that it was
"quite obvious that one or two rather bitter and twisted chaps thought they were good enough to do the job but never quite made the grade when it came round to STANEVAL selection time"
I in turn replied to your comment, in post 43, that what seemed quite obvious to you was in fact wrong. IT IS WRONG! It is as simple as that. I have never wanted or desired or aspired to a posting to STANEVAL, considered myself suitable, applied or in any way attempted to be selected. Therefore it is WRONG that I "thought I was good enough to do the job but never quite made the grade...". Those are my own personal circumstances, and I think I am better placed to know them than you.
You now (post 44) appear to be making an entirely separate point, that I am wrong in my original assertions (post 33) because you work with an office with 7 decent individuals who work on STANEVAL. Well, good for you, but this in turn leads to further discussion.
First of all, since you share an office with 7 STANEVAL guys presumably you are STANEVAL yourself, and presumably therefore likely to defend the organization. Are you saying in post 44 that all of my comments in post 33 are incorrect, or just some of them?
I have been in the RAF flying game over 25 years, on more than one fleet. My comments made in post 33 are based on my observations over both those years and fleets. I have seen STANEVALS full of Spec Aircrew/PA Sqn Ldrs and senior Flt Lts, along with FS and Master Aircrew, who haven't been on a Sqn in years, and whose last posting was normally the OCU. The average age is normally 45 or older...
As an aside, how old are you (45+), are you a Master, what is the average age of the 7 people you share an office with, what ranks are they?
Recently on one fleet I watched the same old faces go around the OCU/STANEVAL loop for years, perhaps more noticeably so since 9/11. One was briefly posted back to a Sqn, with subsequent desert dets, but the teddy bear went out of the cot (I believe, but cannot be sure, that a PVR was threatened , and no there was no invalid wife, aunty on life support machine, etc ) and within 15-18 months they were back on the OCU. I won't be any more specific on an open forum.
Amongst all these more aged individuals, the "old boys" I was referring to, there is normally a sprinkling of youth, posted there as a career move. They are often promoted during their STANEVAL tour.
As for the nit picky approach to trapping that has been my personal experience in the last 25 years, along with such (unofficial) mantras as " ...you can't be assessed as above average until you have been on the fleet X years..." (insert value of X as deemed appropriate), and "...an above average operator wouldn't need to look that up...". As one particular example I was once criticised on a check ride for using a technique that 6 months later was being pushed as a fleet wide SOP, such is life. I don't consider myself bitter and twisted about it, it is just the way of "trappers". Yes I have had bad trapper rides on occasion, but I have also had more good ones, and have been assessed as above average on every type I have operated (not blowing my own trumpet - just trying to point out that my abilities have been fairly assessed over the years and therefore that I have no personal axe to grind on this basis).
My comments on post 33 were based on my observations throughout my flying career. You might well be on a more enlightened STANEVAL on your fleet, in which case you are fortunate. You might not agree with my observations and feel they don't reflect the world you inhabit, but they do reflect the worlds I have been in. I can't comment on your particular fleet, but I can tell you how the STANEVALS I have been exposed to over many years did/do work.
Three people replied to my comments. Two agreed totally and one, yourself (a STANEVAL member?), disagreed. To me that implies that some people out there at least have had similar experiences to myself, and recognize my comments, and no doubt some haven't. Perhaps whichever part of the AT world you currently work for (believe you were SH also at some point) has a more practical/pragmatic approach. Perhaps Loadies just make better trappers than other trades???
While you may disagree with my comments, or that they are truly representative of STANEVALs, it doesn't alter what I have actually observed and experienced throughout my RAF flying career.
I suggest we may simply have to agree to disagree on this one!!
Here's a question for you. Why do ex-trappers, who presumably have a wealth of accumulated knowledge to pass on, go back to the OCU, where they are mainly teaching ab-initios who don't yet have the ability or capacity to pick up anything more than the basics? Instead, why don't they go back to a front line Sqn to pass on their more in depth knowledge and help improve the calibre of the more experienced operators? I can think of several reasons why they don't....
Last edited by Biggus; 29th Jul 2009 at 20:02.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Oxon
Age: 66
Posts: 1,942
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Biggus,
I have looked back at post 41 and can see no mention of your name whilst post 44 was merely a contradiction of one, and only one of your previous assertions so not quite sure what all the heart pouring was about
I have looked back at post 41 and can see no mention of your name whilst post 44 was merely a contradiction of one, and only one of your previous assertions so not quite sure what all the heart pouring was about
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Falmouth
Posts: 1,651
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In the RN it is extremely rare, almost unheard of for a Trapper to have the job again. You are appointed as the trapper....do the job for a couple of years and then go back to the Front line or back to a training Squadron. Thats your go as the trapper. I have only once heard of a trapper going back to do the job again.
Our STANEVAL guys are of mixed ability and virtue, but do rotate freely between Standards/OCF and the Sqn's, with very few disappearing into a loop.
However, any posted to Shawbury is deemed lost, and will shuffle between DHFS and CFS(H) until retirement, oft quoting phrases about the 'front-line' that they last saw several decades ago.
However, any posted to Shawbury is deemed lost, and will shuffle between DHFS and CFS(H) until retirement, oft quoting phrases about the 'front-line' that they last saw several decades ago.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Wiltshire
Age: 58
Posts: 596
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The point being there is a place for independent standards, but STANEVAL, don't do them. How do we get fair and safe standards?
Maybe standards is an outdated name, maybe Capabilities Check Sqn would be better. This would mean we don't all have to be the same, just good at the job we have at the moment - this would allow the good rise and the not so good go to STANEVAL? just a thought !
The NAVY are good and the Army has become a lot better than in the past and both help, assess and give fair views, on the whole – even more importantly – they get out and help rectify any problems and are normally on the other end of a phone.
PS – what is CFS doing with the agencies at the moment – new broom?????
Maybe standards is an outdated name, maybe Capabilities Check Sqn would be better. This would mean we don't all have to be the same, just good at the job we have at the moment - this would allow the good rise and the not so good go to STANEVAL? just a thought !
The NAVY are good and the Army has become a lot better than in the past and both help, assess and give fair views, on the whole – even more importantly – they get out and help rectify any problems and are normally on the other end of a phone.
PS – what is CFS doing with the agencies at the moment – new broom?????
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Falmouth
Posts: 1,651
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
VVHA, the boss of Trappers has usually done the job once before.
