"2 RAF personnel killed in mid-air collision" today
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1) Assuming the glider was equipped with FLARM, should it alert off of a regular transponder like the tutor, or just off of other FLARM equipped aircraft?
www.flarm.com
Takeup of Flarm should have got a boost amongst XC glider pilots now that some of the units are FAI-approved flight loggers, which means the traces from them can be used for badge claims and the like. When I brought my logger 1 1/2 years ago that wasn't the case, and also Flarm has come down in cost a bit since then.
2) We know that some composites can be safely painted, but does fiberglass have characteristics (unlike other composites) that make it unsafe or unwise to paint in contrasting colors?
The issue is with a non-white finish because it heats the underlying structure. If you feel the top of a white glider wing it's cool, even if it's been in the sun all day. If you find a glider with (for example) red wing tips they will be warm. You can feel it with washing on the line as well - a pale teeshirt will be cool, a dark one warm.
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My thoughts are with the families and friends of those involved at this particularly difficult time.
In response to a Q
The MOD will run its own investigation in parallel to the CAA one.
In reply to Jolly Green,
FLARM only reports on other FLARM equipped aircraft and not transponding aircraft. Likewise systems such as TCAS and PCAS only report on transponder equipped aircraft.
There is a new system about to hit the market which will report on both FLARM and Transponder equipped aircraft, which is also ADS-B capable.
The AC Viking and Vigilant fleet have nice big Dayglo patches on their wings, which does help pic them out.
As always, good lookout is essential but these systems do help pick up those contacts that do get past the Mk1 eyeball.
In response to a Q
The MOD will run its own investigation in parallel to the CAA one.
In reply to Jolly Green,
FLARM only reports on other FLARM equipped aircraft and not transponding aircraft. Likewise systems such as TCAS and PCAS only report on transponder equipped aircraft.
There is a new system about to hit the market which will report on both FLARM and Transponder equipped aircraft, which is also ADS-B capable.
The AC Viking and Vigilant fleet have nice big Dayglo patches on their wings, which does help pic them out.
As always, good lookout is essential but these systems do help pick up those contacts that do get past the Mk1 eyeball.
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You will still get heat problems. There is already a restriction on where, when and for how long you can park a Tutor that has the display aircraft markings, depending on what surface you park the aircraft.
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There's not an issue with painting composite structure, it's the colour you paint it which is important. And when you're talking about issues with the "composite" more specifically you're talking about the matrix (resin) part of the composite.
The matrix is susceptible to degradation from a number of environmental sources, particularly IR, UV and condensation. These can cause degradation of the matrix structure and lead to a reduction in the physical properties of the matrix. IR is the most obvious of these (i.e. if you put your hand on a dark part of a wing and a light part you'd be able to feel the temperature difference). UV is less noticeable but in the long term equally as damaging.
Seeing as the matrix provides almost all of the composite structures compressive strength, over time exposure to excessive IR and UV radiation could lead to a reduction in static strength to the point where a manoeuvre (e.g. a loop), which was previously well within the material’s capability, causes failure of the material.
So yes, you can paint composite structures whatever colour you like but you either need to take property degradation into account or use some form of inhibitor (for UV in particular).
The matrix is susceptible to degradation from a number of environmental sources, particularly IR, UV and condensation. These can cause degradation of the matrix structure and lead to a reduction in the physical properties of the matrix. IR is the most obvious of these (i.e. if you put your hand on a dark part of a wing and a light part you'd be able to feel the temperature difference). UV is less noticeable but in the long term equally as damaging.
Seeing as the matrix provides almost all of the composite structures compressive strength, over time exposure to excessive IR and UV radiation could lead to a reduction in static strength to the point where a manoeuvre (e.g. a loop), which was previously well within the material’s capability, causes failure of the material.
So yes, you can paint composite structures whatever colour you like but you either need to take property degradation into account or use some form of inhibitor (for UV in particular).
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GRP/ Composites have a long history in the harsh marine environment.
painting /colouring is commonplace and unlike the aviation environment,stressing a structure well beyond it's design limits is commonplace and rarely results in more than a soaking and a lot of ribbing in the bar, afterwards.
There has to be a "middle path" between the High-Vis requirements and the heat-absorbtion problem.
it is NOT insurmountable-As mentioned by other posters, 2-pack, Isocyanate-based Automotive paints have proven adhesion and durability qualities when applied to Alloys and Composites.
Given the mind-boggling prices that a lot of Certified Aeronautical "kit" seems to command, there will be specialist paint-manufacturers out there who CAN develop a heat AND light-reflective finish which is compatible with Aviation requirements.
The likely stalling-point is the beurocracy dragging it's heels and spending years prevaricating before approval.....OTOH. they are well proven to bring in legislation enforcing undeveloped, unproven and in some cases, demands for which NO solution is yet extant.
(cue "crash" development programs and suspension of unworkable rules ,until reality catches up with the beaurocrat's fantasies.
I would NOT be happy flying in a white Composite.....legal or not, I'd be happier with a lightweight LED strobe with a Li-Poly battery,parked on the glare-shield and radiating SOME warning of my prescence, through the windscreen.
painting /colouring is commonplace and unlike the aviation environment,stressing a structure well beyond it's design limits is commonplace and rarely results in more than a soaking and a lot of ribbing in the bar, afterwards.
There has to be a "middle path" between the High-Vis requirements and the heat-absorbtion problem.
it is NOT insurmountable-As mentioned by other posters, 2-pack, Isocyanate-based Automotive paints have proven adhesion and durability qualities when applied to Alloys and Composites.
Given the mind-boggling prices that a lot of Certified Aeronautical "kit" seems to command, there will be specialist paint-manufacturers out there who CAN develop a heat AND light-reflective finish which is compatible with Aviation requirements.
The likely stalling-point is the beurocracy dragging it's heels and spending years prevaricating before approval.....OTOH. they are well proven to bring in legislation enforcing undeveloped, unproven and in some cases, demands for which NO solution is yet extant.
(cue "crash" development programs and suspension of unworkable rules ,until reality catches up with the beaurocrat's fantasies.
I would NOT be happy flying in a white Composite.....legal or not, I'd be happier with a lightweight LED strobe with a Li-Poly battery,parked on the glare-shield and radiating SOME warning of my prescence, through the windscreen.
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Yes, GRP has been used in marine applications for many years, but the average GRP boat is not relying on the GRP for most of it's strength. How the boat is constructed varies, but you can bet your bottom dollar that they are not designed to be able to do a loop or chandelle.
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[QUOTE][GRP boat is not relying on the GRP for most of it's strength. /QUOTE] so grp/composite is not composed of "plastic" resin, Glass-fibre/carbon fibre/kevlar 
And the average composite aircraft doesn't survive the fuselage slamming at 40 knots into a solid wall of water whilst the airborne wing cants it over to 60*,cantilevering an umpteen -ton weight on the other(submerged) wing!
Yes. there are differences in construction but there are close parralels in technique.....both disciplines attempt to get maximum strength with minimum weight...I'd argue that the shock-loadings on boats is akin to permanently flying in severe turbulence.....but the issue of UV degradation and heat-softening is just as relevant wether cruising the Med or tonking through the Southern Arctic.
Open minds will achieve a way to "announce" their prescence to other "traffic"
Anyone who'se been a "suicide jockey" ?- AKA motorcyclist , will have first -hand experience of making themselves seen.
but you can bet your bottom dollar that they are not designed to be able to do a loop or chandelle.
Today 12:46
Today 12:46
Yes. there are differences in construction but there are close parralels in technique.....both disciplines attempt to get maximum strength with minimum weight...I'd argue that the shock-loadings on boats is akin to permanently flying in severe turbulence.....but the issue of UV degradation and heat-softening is just as relevant wether cruising the Med or tonking through the Southern Arctic.
Open minds will achieve a way to "announce" their prescence to other "traffic"
Anyone who'se been a "suicide jockey" ?- AKA motorcyclist , will have first -hand experience of making themselves seen.
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Grobs, Fireflys, Extra 300s, can be painted/resin impregnated any colour you like - yes there are issues with black on upper surfaces but all EFT Fireflies went from white to black undersides many years ago with NO structural impact.
The issue is cost and time out of service. In adition, if re-painted after production there may be a weight penalty as there was with the T67M160 early models.
The issue is cost and time out of service. In adition, if re-painted after production there may be a weight penalty as there was with the T67M160 early models.
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Of interest and not so far mentioned the early Pik 20 gliders made in Finland were available in yellow, geen and I think pink in addition to the more normal white colour found on todays high colour sailplanes. The colours proved to be less than popular with customers and were abandoned.
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Mike's Funeral
Mike's funeral will be held on Monday 6th July, actual time to still be confirmed but it will be in the afternoon at RAF Benson.
Anyone who knew Mike and wishes to attend is more than welcome to do so.
Anyone wishing to make any donations please do so to either Hedley Court or RAF Benevolent Fund.
For any further information please do not hesitate in contacting me.
PA
Anyone who knew Mike and wishes to attend is more than welcome to do so.
Anyone wishing to make any donations please do so to either Hedley Court or RAF Benevolent Fund.
For any further information please do not hesitate in contacting me.
PA
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Sorry wasn't very clear. The shape of a well-designed boat gives it a lot of strength (double-curvature). Early attempts to produce GRP versions of boats designed to be build in plywood were very unsuccessful as the flat areas were weak and had to be built much too heavily to (try) to make them strong enough until reinforcing with suitable materials was introducted. High-performance boats plane which needs relatively flat aft sections so the use of reinforcing (foam sandwich construction) was essential.
White decks are not popular because of the glare but white hulls are - they are easy to see when they are inverted. But dark decks are not popular either - a pale grey works well for preventing glare.
High-performance boats have massive rigging tensions and some are built round a metal monocoque frame that takes those tensions. In dinghies the frame can be seen - International 14s are a good example.
High-performance boats are cossetted. Dinghies are kept off the water and under covers except for the few hours a week they are sailed. Serious keel-racers take the boat off the water and cover it between races for a variety of reasons. Boats used by sailing schools (especially marine-based ones) look pretty tired pretty quickly.
So yes, the composite part of the structure does matter but it's by no means the only part of the story, and the forces involved are certainly not the number of Gs that quite a few gliders are designed to withstand -
Also, the consequences for most sailing types of a structural failure are nothing like a serious as those for aviators. Obviously in ocean racing it can be, though there have been some amazing rescues (Tony Bullimore for example). The element that fails most often is the rigging, not the hull.
I'm not sure how the stresses of sailing compare to flying. A common training glider will take between +6.5 and -4 g, and I doubt anything sailing ever experiences those extremes. However a prolonged upwind leg, or a planing downwind one will involve plenty of slamming if the seastate is rough and the wind is brisk. (though the bows are inherently very strong because of their shape)
White decks are not popular because of the glare but white hulls are - they are easy to see when they are inverted. But dark decks are not popular either - a pale grey works well for preventing glare.
High-performance boats have massive rigging tensions and some are built round a metal monocoque frame that takes those tensions. In dinghies the frame can be seen - International 14s are a good example.
High-performance boats are cossetted. Dinghies are kept off the water and under covers except for the few hours a week they are sailed. Serious keel-racers take the boat off the water and cover it between races for a variety of reasons. Boats used by sailing schools (especially marine-based ones) look pretty tired pretty quickly.
So yes, the composite part of the structure does matter but it's by no means the only part of the story, and the forces involved are certainly not the number of Gs that quite a few gliders are designed to withstand -
Also, the consequences for most sailing types of a structural failure are nothing like a serious as those for aviators. Obviously in ocean racing it can be, though there have been some amazing rescues (Tony Bullimore for example). The element that fails most often is the rigging, not the hull.
I'm not sure how the stresses of sailing compare to flying. A common training glider will take between +6.5 and -4 g, and I doubt anything sailing ever experiences those extremes. However a prolonged upwind leg, or a planing downwind one will involve plenty of slamming if the seastate is rough and the wind is brisk. (though the bows are inherently very strong because of their shape)
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Maybe, just maybe the Tutor was aerobating when it collided with the Cirrus -
Hasell checks, couple of manoervres, all ok - coaching and mentoring a cadet who is in his element, pulling up into the loop - BANG.!!!
Million to one accident, and one where i would struggle to aportion any blame... just really, really sad bad luck....
This almost happened to me in the CAP 10 in May but with a C172 as the traffic..
Aerobatics in the most basic form requires intense cockpit and mental management, coupled with good lookout.
But it is incredibly, incredibly difficult to see high performance gliders straight and level coming at you perpendicular when you are looping and rolling above the countryside!
The answer is not to ban AEF flying and stop cadets living the dream
The answer is to have notam'd aerobatic boxes close to the airfields that have these requirements - and yes glider pilots do read notams!!
And / or fit gliders with HISL's top & bottom of fuselage - 90% of close calls with gliders would then probably disappear......!
All IMHO
Hasell checks, couple of manoervres, all ok - coaching and mentoring a cadet who is in his element, pulling up into the loop - BANG.!!!
Million to one accident, and one where i would struggle to aportion any blame... just really, really sad bad luck....
This almost happened to me in the CAP 10 in May but with a C172 as the traffic..
Aerobatics in the most basic form requires intense cockpit and mental management, coupled with good lookout.
But it is incredibly, incredibly difficult to see high performance gliders straight and level coming at you perpendicular when you are looping and rolling above the countryside!
The answer is not to ban AEF flying and stop cadets living the dream
The answer is to have notam'd aerobatic boxes close to the airfields that have these requirements - and yes glider pilots do read notams!!
And / or fit gliders with HISL's top & bottom of fuselage - 90% of close calls with gliders would then probably disappear......!
All IMHO
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Last time a flew in a Tutor (a couple of months ago), the procedure prior to looping was a steep bank one way to check below followed by a reversal to check the otherside, then a good lookout above to make sure it's all clear.
I'm sure any AEF guys out there will correct me if this isn't SOP.
If they we're manouvering when they collided it may have just been one of those occasions where they were in each other's blind spots and simply didn't see each other.
I'm sure any AEF guys out there will correct me if this isn't SOP.
If they we're manouvering when they collided it may have just been one of those occasions where they were in each other's blind spots and simply didn't see each other.
.....it may have just been one of those occasions where they were in each other's blind spots and simply didn't see each other.
Many years ago, I was pottering along at low level in one of HM's Buccaneers when the Voice From the Back casually said "Have you got that guy, left 11 o' clock?".
"Yes", I replied, seeing an aircraft in the distance, "looks like a Herc, but it's miles away."
"No, it's not a Herc and it's pretty close!"
Then, from behind the canopy arch loomed a Jaguar. It was indeed 'pretty close'. It must have been exactly in my blind spot.
It happens. Only way to mitigate is to keep your head and eyes moving. All the pretty coloured paint and flashing lights in the world in the world won't help if it's hidden - neither will silly NOTAMs. And no-one will countenance the cost of fitting electric alarms to Das Teutor.
As I wrote earlier, what is different about AEFs, their pilots, aeroplanes, aerodromes and practices of today compared with 10-20 years ago? When the only incidents were usually caused by staff officers taxying Chipmunks into solid objects?
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Weight from repaint
Can confirm that a repaint adds a significant amount of weight - we had one that was very limited crew wise following a repaint at Grob. The tutor can be hard to spot and there have a been a few near misses regarding spins, despite a bloody thorough lookout.
The firefly is most definitely a dam sight easier to spot!
The firefly is most definitely a dam sight easier to spot!
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Jetscream 32,
You point out some valid points regarding the 'Hasell' checks. How many of us when doing our clearing turns automatically look down and call clear and neglect to also look up?! Perhaps a few of us?!
I am sure the AAIB will determine the most likely cause of this dreadful accident. Accidents do happen sadly.
Sincere condolences to all those who sadly died in this incident.
Big Sand.
You point out some valid points regarding the 'Hasell' checks. How many of us when doing our clearing turns automatically look down and call clear and neglect to also look up?! Perhaps a few of us?!
I am sure the AAIB will determine the most likely cause of this dreadful accident. Accidents do happen sadly.
Sincere condolences to all those who sadly died in this incident.
Big Sand.
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Mike Blee's Funeral Details.
Mike’s confirmed Funeral details are as follows:-
Monday 6th July 2009 at RAF Benson. Anyone attending could they please be there for 1200hrs where transport to the church has been organised. THERE IS NO PARKING AVAILABLE AT THE CHURCH ITSELF.
Anyone one wishing to go could you please contact the station adj. on 01491 827 099 so they can have a rough idea of numbers attending.
Donations will be for Headley Court and/or RAF Benevolent Fund.
Those wishing to donate to Headley Court by cheque please make them payable to "SFAS DMRC Headley Court", please write on back of the cheques "Patients Welfare Fund". For those attending there will be a collection box in the Mess.
Any further enquiries do not hesitate in PM me.
PA
Monday 6th July 2009 at RAF Benson. Anyone attending could they please be there for 1200hrs where transport to the church has been organised. THERE IS NO PARKING AVAILABLE AT THE CHURCH ITSELF.
Anyone one wishing to go could you please contact the station adj. on 01491 827 099 so they can have a rough idea of numbers attending.
Donations will be for Headley Court and/or RAF Benevolent Fund.
Those wishing to donate to Headley Court by cheque please make them payable to "SFAS DMRC Headley Court", please write on back of the cheques "Patients Welfare Fund". For those attending there will be a collection box in the Mess.
Any further enquiries do not hesitate in PM me.
PA
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Collision avoidance
Yes, well said Beagle, Jetscream and Big Sand, all the technology and paint schemes in the world will never prevent this type of accident.
There is absolutely no substitute for gold standard airmanship and just good plain homely constant lookout combined with a good degree of head/neck movement to compensate for constant rate of closing scenario's. There is also the need for good use of HASELL and including the words.......
"clearing turn to the left / right bloggs , and we're checking below / behind / in front AND ABOVE us"
As we have now seen the demise of three RAF pilots and three Air Cadets little more than as many months, surely it is time for some re-assessment of AEF pilot standardisation, "out briefing and what that brief contains in addition to signing to accept the out brief" - not to mention a look at currency requirements for individuals. If you want to be the best, then strive to be the best and challenge existing standards and regulations !
I cannot believe that we can allow these two fatal accidents to pass by without some well considered changes. Something is clearly wrong.
The VGS world operate similar Grob Vigilant TMG aircraft - and not just flying with Cadets - all of their instructors instruct ( some more so, and some less so) and teach to solo standard and beyond, and many locally on RAF stations fly competently alongside service aircraft and helicopters under RAF ATC directions.
Many senior staff are professional ATPL's in the "day job". -For quite incomprehensible reasons VGS instructors are not allowed to fly on AEF units unless previously fully service qualified, even though they are standardised and supervised by RAF Officers, including a CFS element. The Titanic was commanded by a professional, whilst Noah was an amateur !
Perhaps some more interchange (on a limited and selection based system)and cross fertilization may bring some tangible benefits to Cadet flying - e.g., a little instructional flying and some new young blood, not to mention allowing some VR(T) RAF (Ret'd) Officers to gain an understanding of the conventional gliding world - a possible competency gain for old boys of managing without a fan on the front for longer than it takes to hit the ground on an EFATO !
Cadets would also benefit from some limited learning rather than a 20-25 min pure PAX ride. The VGS staff have adequately demonstrated their professional competency in a more demanding role - why not? - don't let the past hinder the future, and most importantly LEARN from the each and every accident.
There is absolutely no substitute for gold standard airmanship and just good plain homely constant lookout combined with a good degree of head/neck movement to compensate for constant rate of closing scenario's. There is also the need for good use of HASELL and including the words.......
"clearing turn to the left / right bloggs , and we're checking below / behind / in front AND ABOVE us"
As we have now seen the demise of three RAF pilots and three Air Cadets little more than as many months, surely it is time for some re-assessment of AEF pilot standardisation, "out briefing and what that brief contains in addition to signing to accept the out brief" - not to mention a look at currency requirements for individuals. If you want to be the best, then strive to be the best and challenge existing standards and regulations !
I cannot believe that we can allow these two fatal accidents to pass by without some well considered changes. Something is clearly wrong.
The VGS world operate similar Grob Vigilant TMG aircraft - and not just flying with Cadets - all of their instructors instruct ( some more so, and some less so) and teach to solo standard and beyond, and many locally on RAF stations fly competently alongside service aircraft and helicopters under RAF ATC directions.
Many senior staff are professional ATPL's in the "day job". -For quite incomprehensible reasons VGS instructors are not allowed to fly on AEF units unless previously fully service qualified, even though they are standardised and supervised by RAF Officers, including a CFS element. The Titanic was commanded by a professional, whilst Noah was an amateur !
Perhaps some more interchange (on a limited and selection based system)and cross fertilization may bring some tangible benefits to Cadet flying - e.g., a little instructional flying and some new young blood, not to mention allowing some VR(T) RAF (Ret'd) Officers to gain an understanding of the conventional gliding world - a possible competency gain for old boys of managing without a fan on the front for longer than it takes to hit the ground on an EFATO !
Cadets would also benefit from some limited learning rather than a 20-25 min pure PAX ride. The VGS staff have adequately demonstrated their professional competency in a more demanding role - why not? - don't let the past hinder the future, and most importantly LEARN from the each and every accident.