"2 RAF personnel killed in mid-air collision" today
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No, FLARM is an anti-collision electronic device which warns you of the proximity of other FLARM-equipped aircraft. As such it's mostly used by gliders so it only enables you to avoid other gliders. See Flarm - Homepage
Truly awful story. The weather was just about perfect and the world and his wife were flying in the area this afternoon; very close to home. The AEF in question is where my cadets fly.
Tim
Truly awful story. The weather was just about perfect and the world and his wife were flying in the area this afternoon; very close to home. The AEF in question is where my cadets fly.
Tim
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The only practical service that is used on these sorts of flights tends to be Basic Service. Even if Traffic Service was used, the aircrew are not required to become visual and there is no 'minimum distance' required between aircraft. Deconfliction Service would (should) keep aircraft apart but Im sure it would not be practicle to use on these sorts of flights. Just my opinion.
1. What were the AEF accident rates both 10 and 20 years ago?
2. What is different about AEF flying today in terms of:
When the likes of StopStart was committing aerobation with me almost 20 years ago, there were about 20 Bulldogs and Chipmunks operating from RAF Abingdon. No IFF/SSR, very primitive radios and no navaids. Yet, even though we all operated in the same small area, we managed to avoid hitting each other or anyone else.
I doubt whether we were superior beings, so just what has changed in the last few years - and has it had any bearing on this sad accident?
2. What is different about AEF flying today in terms of:
- Aeroplanes
- Pilots
- AEF flight profiles
- Aerodrome locations
- Other traffic
When the likes of StopStart was committing aerobation with me almost 20 years ago, there were about 20 Bulldogs and Chipmunks operating from RAF Abingdon. No IFF/SSR, very primitive radios and no navaids. Yet, even though we all operated in the same small area, we managed to avoid hitting each other or anyone else.
I doubt whether we were superior beings, so just what has changed in the last few years - and has it had any bearing on this sad accident?
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I remember being at Farnborough in the late 90's when the Cirrus aircraft were demo-ing their technology for the new aircraft they were just launching.
In front of me were two old duffers claiming it would never work and "in my day" etc. Thankfully the world has moved on and Cirrus are now the top selling western light aircraft.
YouTube - BRS Emergency Parachute test
RIP
In front of me were two old duffers claiming it would never work and "in my day" etc. Thankfully the world has moved on and Cirrus are now the top selling western light aircraft.
YouTube - BRS Emergency Parachute test
RIP
Avoid imitations
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I've heard this thing about composites having to be white and unpainted for years.
The rotor blades on many modern helicopters are also made from composite materials. They are usually black in colour. The colour stays on at 400 mph tip speeds plus the 150 kts airspeed in the cruise, total 550 mph.
The rotor blades on many modern helicopters are also made from composite materials. They are usually black in colour. The colour stays on at 400 mph tip speeds plus the 150 kts airspeed in the cruise, total 550 mph.
Don't think is the appropriate place for such discussions, but the deal with the Tutors [so far as I've learnt] is that if they were painted any other colour - particularly darker [and yes, they are painted] - then they would get too warm on the ground and then the glue that aids the adhesion of the wings to the fuselage has the potential to fail.
Helicopter rotors are fine -or at least better off- because they tend to have a metal-based honeycomb interior structure and their movement through the air works to keep them cool.
Helicopter rotors are fine -or at least better off- because they tend to have a metal-based honeycomb interior structure and their movement through the air works to keep them cool.
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A truely tragic event and one very close to home as I know a few of the AEF pilots (I await the release of the names with some dread) and I've flown in the area for the past 30 years nad so have learnt to be extra carefull on days like these.
I looked at the sky today and said "what a perfect day for gliding" and in saying that I just knew that the sky between Didcot and Oxford would be like a crowed motorway full of gliders. On the other hand the AEF Tutors would be leaving/returning to the Benson MATZ at more or less right angles to the traffic to get to the Vale of the White Horse to do their thing.
Increasing the visibility of these aircraft has got to come and if that means testing of composite structures in colours other than white so be it.
Incidentaly the huge patches of Dayglo on the composite wings of the Air Cadets Vigilants and Vikings doesn't appear to have made them any weaker, just a lot easier to see.
I looked at the sky today and said "what a perfect day for gliding" and in saying that I just knew that the sky between Didcot and Oxford would be like a crowed motorway full of gliders. On the other hand the AEF Tutors would be leaving/returning to the Benson MATZ at more or less right angles to the traffic to get to the Vale of the White Horse to do their thing.
Increasing the visibility of these aircraft has got to come and if that means testing of composite structures in colours other than white so be it.
Incidentaly the huge patches of Dayglo on the composite wings of the Air Cadets Vigilants and Vikings doesn't appear to have made them any weaker, just a lot easier to see.
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Flying Training Command (as it was) and its subsequent merged authorities have investigated various methods of conspicuity over the years, from Silver and Yellow through to the current paint scheme adopted by all military training aircraft which is black all over (note the Tutor is not military).
The composite surface and heat really depends on the nature of the composite structure. The composite nature of the Vigilant T.1s and Viking T.1s prevents the all black paint scheme as yes it would overheat the structure. The Tutor is a much newer composite design and such may permit a greater absorption from sun rays. Likewise rotor blade technology is much different. The Air Cadet Organisation was forced to re-evaluate its conspicuity requirements in the late 1990s following an incident with the Viking T.1s and this resulted in the adoption of the Day-Glo conspicuity designed in 2002-2003, which is currently in use across the entire Glider fleets, as the Training Aircraft paint scheme was not possible.
The composite surface and heat really depends on the nature of the composite structure. The composite nature of the Vigilant T.1s and Viking T.1s prevents the all black paint scheme as yes it would overheat the structure. The Tutor is a much newer composite design and such may permit a greater absorption from sun rays. Likewise rotor blade technology is much different. The Air Cadet Organisation was forced to re-evaluate its conspicuity requirements in the late 1990s following an incident with the Viking T.1s and this resulted in the adoption of the Day-Glo conspicuity designed in 2002-2003, which is currently in use across the entire Glider fleets, as the Training Aircraft paint scheme was not possible.
Last edited by NightFlit; 18th Jun 2009 at 19:28. Reason: Typo
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Sad to hear of yet another loss at the hands of the tutor. We'll have to wait to see what the AAIB has to say, however I do wonder about the canopy design as I recall how it was often difficult to open during the fumes drill and it makes me wonder how hard it must be to get the canopy jettisoned in a spin....
Another bad day for aviation.
Another bad day for aviation.
Avoid imitations
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Muppet, In the thirty years I've been flying them for a living, I've noticed that
helicopters sit on the ground, too, with the blades stationary.
Not all have underlying metal structure and the stresses involved are huge. In fact, many blades use a Nomex honeycomb, including some of our military ones presently working in a very hot place.
helicopters sit on the ground, too, with the blades stationary.
Not all have underlying metal structure and the stresses involved are huge. In fact, many blades use a Nomex honeycomb, including some of our military ones presently working in a very hot place.
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Gentlemen, can we please leave the semantics about causes and conclusions and personal theories until another time. The sad truth is that someones child and someone else's family member have both perished. I am hoping and praying that they did not suffer. Our thoughts at this time should be with the families.
Lets wait for the BOI before we start the would have, should have, should we instead ???
AEF's up and down the country, along with the VGS's provide our youth with the best view a young person can ask. I still remember my first flight, first aero, first sustained glide along the cliffs at Predannack and the marvel of how small the world really is. We must make sure the youth of tomorrow get the same chances we had.
Fly Safe out there.
CS
Lets wait for the BOI before we start the would have, should have, should we instead ???
AEF's up and down the country, along with the VGS's provide our youth with the best view a young person can ask. I still remember my first flight, first aero, first sustained glide along the cliffs at Predannack and the marvel of how small the world really is. We must make sure the youth of tomorrow get the same chances we had.
Fly Safe out there.
CS
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Perhaps the idea would be to provide a cover for part of the fuselage/wing area in Dayglo that is thermally insulated from the underlying structure then.
I would have thought that a high vis colour scheme, which is - after all - designed to reflect light rather than absorb it, would not absorb enough heat energy to affect bonding of the various layers... after all, surely the difference between flying on a hot sunny day and a bitterly cold one produces a greater temperature change than the difference between heat absorbed from an ornage surface v a white one? Failing that add as many High vis strobes as it takes.
IF your parachute gets in the way, then you design a better parachute.
Leave it to the BOI, meanwhile condolences to the next of kin, family and friends - whilst it's not uncommon to speculate about what might be done differently I suspect there's a fair amount of received wisdom involved here, rather than science...
I would have thought that a high vis colour scheme, which is - after all - designed to reflect light rather than absorb it, would not absorb enough heat energy to affect bonding of the various layers... after all, surely the difference between flying on a hot sunny day and a bitterly cold one produces a greater temperature change than the difference between heat absorbed from an ornage surface v a white one? Failing that add as many High vis strobes as it takes.
IF your parachute gets in the way, then you design a better parachute.
Leave it to the BOI, meanwhile condolences to the next of kin, family and friends - whilst it's not uncommon to speculate about what might be done differently I suspect there's a fair amount of received wisdom involved here, rather than science...
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First and foremost my sincerest condolences to those who have so sadly lost their lives today.
To add to the debate that hopefully may help try and reduce these dreadful occurrences. I fly a Bulldog (in RAF training colours) around the ULAS and CUAS LFA in Cambridgeshire. In this area there is a LOT of traffic from paragliders, gliders, UAS Grobs, GA, Barkston Heath T67's etc etc.
In my UAS day's when there were no transponders in the Bulldogs it was drummed into us LOOKOUT LOOKOUT LOOKOUT. I am sure these poor lads were doing their lookouts but the facts I have found are that of the traffic mentioned above most are painted white. The Barkston guys are easily visible and, like the Grobs have composite airframes. However,(comma) the Barkston aircraft are painted yellow & black.
In the frequent haze over Eastern and middle England I find white aircraft tricky to spot. Yellow, Black and Red aircraft much less so. Moreover, at the weekends there is also not the same opportunity for your local LARS to 'call the traffic'. May I take this opportunity of also thanking Cottesmore LARS for giving me a head's-up on many occassions. Pity that it's 'not possible' to give some of the Grobs some LARS cover during the weekends? Ironically, this is the time it's usually busiest with a lot of 'white traffic'?!
To all those giving their time and efforts to introducing young people to the fantastic joy of flight please don't be discouraged.
Condolences
Big Sand
To add to the debate that hopefully may help try and reduce these dreadful occurrences. I fly a Bulldog (in RAF training colours) around the ULAS and CUAS LFA in Cambridgeshire. In this area there is a LOT of traffic from paragliders, gliders, UAS Grobs, GA, Barkston Heath T67's etc etc.
In my UAS day's when there were no transponders in the Bulldogs it was drummed into us LOOKOUT LOOKOUT LOOKOUT. I am sure these poor lads were doing their lookouts but the facts I have found are that of the traffic mentioned above most are painted white. The Barkston guys are easily visible and, like the Grobs have composite airframes. However,(comma) the Barkston aircraft are painted yellow & black.
In the frequent haze over Eastern and middle England I find white aircraft tricky to spot. Yellow, Black and Red aircraft much less so. Moreover, at the weekends there is also not the same opportunity for your local LARS to 'call the traffic'. May I take this opportunity of also thanking Cottesmore LARS for giving me a head's-up on many occassions. Pity that it's 'not possible' to give some of the Grobs some LARS cover during the weekends? Ironically, this is the time it's usually busiest with a lot of 'white traffic'?!
To all those giving their time and efforts to introducing young people to the fantastic joy of flight please don't be discouraged.
Condolences
Big Sand
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CirrusF
There were other Bulldog losses where crew did not get out, and one that I remember where the QFI possible released the wrong harness buckle and fell out of his parachute harness.
. Many of our QFIs had been on the same course as the guy who died and they were visibly affected by the news The Boss promptly stacked for the day, suggesting everybody meet in the bar some 30 minutes hence, whereupon due respect was paid.
CS
1. What were the AEF accident rates both 10 and 20 years ago?
2. What is different about AEF flying today in terms of:
Aeroplanes
Pilots
AEF flight profiles
Aerodrome locations
Other traffic
When the likes of StopStart was committing aerobation with me almost 20 years ago, there were about 20 Bulldogs and Chipmunks operating from RAF Abingdon. No IFF/SSR, very primitive radios and no navaids. Yet, even though we all operated in the same small area, we managed to avoid hitting each other or anyone else.
I doubt whether we were superior beings, so just what has changed in the last few years - and has it had any bearing on this sad accident?
2. What is different about AEF flying today in terms of:
Aeroplanes
Pilots
AEF flight profiles
Aerodrome locations
Other traffic
When the likes of StopStart was committing aerobation with me almost 20 years ago, there were about 20 Bulldogs and Chipmunks operating from RAF Abingdon. No IFF/SSR, very primitive radios and no navaids. Yet, even though we all operated in the same small area, we managed to avoid hitting each other or anyone else.
I doubt whether we were superior beings, so just what has changed in the last few years - and has it had any bearing on this sad accident?
18 Sep 80 - Bulldog - Abingdon. Undercarriage collapse due to heavy landing during UAS staff continuation training sortie turnback maneuver.
20 Feb 82 - Bulldog - Leuchars. Aircraft successfully abandoned after failed spin recovery.
23 May 82 - Chipmunk - Cambridge Airport. 5 AEF Aircraft flew into the ground due to Pilot incapacitation, pilot suffered major injuries, Cadet uninjured.
25 Mar 85 - Bulldog - Abingdon. Aircraft abandoned after failed spin recovery near Brize Norton. UAS Instructor killed when he fell away from the harness during parachute deployment.
02 mar 88 - Bulldog - Woodvale. UAS pilot killed after entering a spin at 600ft over Southport beach.
06 Sep 88 - Bulldog - base not listed. aircraft damaged by heavy impact on attempted landing, which resulted UAS pilot going around, aircraft lost power, and pilot had to land in a stubble field with minor injuries.
25 Apr 89 - Bulldog - Catterick. Aircraft successfully abandoned by foreign pilot on first solo away from home base after loss of control in cloud.
16 Oct 92 - Bulldog - Belfast. Aircraft hit stone wall during forced landing after engine failure. UAS Instructor fatally injuried.
26 Aug 93 - Chipmunk - St Athan (aircraft from Benson). Aircraft stalled during turnback maneuver. RAFVR pilot killed, ATC CI passanger badly injuried.
05 Aug 95 - 2 x Viking Gliders - Sealand - mid air collision while soaring in same thermal, one aircraft crashed killing the civilian instructor and Cadet on board, while the other instructor (who was badly injured) managed to land his aircraft with an uninjured cadet on board.
21 Jul 97 - Bulldog - Woodvale. UAS student and Instructor killed in crash after engine failure due to fuel starvation during rolling take off.
05 Mar 99 - Bulldog - Leuchars - Cat 5 due to heavy landing during AEF staff continuation training turnback maneuver.
this list is incomplete, as the MAAS for a VGS Cadet Mk 3 which crashed at Weathersfield in 1983 is not listed (Instructor and Cadet killed in that crash).
20 Feb 82 - Bulldog - Leuchars. Aircraft successfully abandoned after failed spin recovery.
23 May 82 - Chipmunk - Cambridge Airport. 5 AEF Aircraft flew into the ground due to Pilot incapacitation, pilot suffered major injuries, Cadet uninjured.
25 Mar 85 - Bulldog - Abingdon. Aircraft abandoned after failed spin recovery near Brize Norton. UAS Instructor killed when he fell away from the harness during parachute deployment.
02 mar 88 - Bulldog - Woodvale. UAS pilot killed after entering a spin at 600ft over Southport beach.
06 Sep 88 - Bulldog - base not listed. aircraft damaged by heavy impact on attempted landing, which resulted UAS pilot going around, aircraft lost power, and pilot had to land in a stubble field with minor injuries.
25 Apr 89 - Bulldog - Catterick. Aircraft successfully abandoned by foreign pilot on first solo away from home base after loss of control in cloud.
16 Oct 92 - Bulldog - Belfast. Aircraft hit stone wall during forced landing after engine failure. UAS Instructor fatally injuried.
26 Aug 93 - Chipmunk - St Athan (aircraft from Benson). Aircraft stalled during turnback maneuver. RAFVR pilot killed, ATC CI passanger badly injuried.
05 Aug 95 - 2 x Viking Gliders - Sealand - mid air collision while soaring in same thermal, one aircraft crashed killing the civilian instructor and Cadet on board, while the other instructor (who was badly injured) managed to land his aircraft with an uninjured cadet on board.
21 Jul 97 - Bulldog - Woodvale. UAS student and Instructor killed in crash after engine failure due to fuel starvation during rolling take off.
05 Mar 99 - Bulldog - Leuchars - Cat 5 due to heavy landing during AEF staff continuation training turnback maneuver.
this list is incomplete, as the MAAS for a VGS Cadet Mk 3 which crashed at Weathersfield in 1983 is not listed (Instructor and Cadet killed in that crash).
There are only 5 reports on non fatal accidents/incidents for the type from 2001 to 2007.
Last edited by MAINJAFAD; 14th Jun 2009 at 23:08.
Avoid imitations
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Cargosales,
I remember it well, too. Not long before I had been taken to one side by my Boss. He told me the groundcrew had complained that I should leave my parachute in the Bulldog when changing over to the next QFI because climbing in and out with it strapped on was known to cause extra wear on the chute pack! We were however supposed to do regular aircraft abandonment drills, along with our students (when obviously we did climb out with our chutes on).
I told him I never wanted to undo a chute QRF whilst sitting in my aircraft because I wanted to ensure I never released the wrong one by mistake when it mattered most. Every time I climbed out after a sortie was an abandonment drill, as far as I was concerned.
The tragic accident proved my point and procedures were later changed; it was put down to cognitive failure on the part of the poor victim.
I remember it well, too. Not long before I had been taken to one side by my Boss. He told me the groundcrew had complained that I should leave my parachute in the Bulldog when changing over to the next QFI because climbing in and out with it strapped on was known to cause extra wear on the chute pack! We were however supposed to do regular aircraft abandonment drills, along with our students (when obviously we did climb out with our chutes on).
I told him I never wanted to undo a chute QRF whilst sitting in my aircraft because I wanted to ensure I never released the wrong one by mistake when it mattered most. Every time I climbed out after a sortie was an abandonment drill, as far as I was concerned.
The tragic accident proved my point and procedures were later changed; it was put down to cognitive failure on the part of the poor victim.
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C4aero
This will be a difficult one for the decision makers, who despite cynical views have a challenge to balance safety and operations against public perception. We have lost 6 colleagues in a few months, and parents will be understandably anxious. The key will be to identify the causes, rectify where possible and then reassure parents and cadets. This will take time and patience, but in the end the ACO will survive, not least as it is the best youth movement in the country.
Any names released yet?
Any names released yet?
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Plodin Along
Would you please pass on my sincere condolences to your own family and the family of the other crew member if you are able. It is truly a sad day for you all especially, but for all aviators.
Unfortunately there has been a huge amount of utter rubbish written on this thread already about the military, parachutes and other things. The fact of the matter is that two families are today grieving at the loss of their loved ones, and I would appeal to everyone such as El Grifo et al to moderate their personal thoughts and opinions and frankly keep them to themselves..
The facts of this tragedy will emerge, but until then, lets try to display a modicum of respect for those fellow aviators (and that includes the cadet) that we have ALL lost.
RIP
The Winco
Would you please pass on my sincere condolences to your own family and the family of the other crew member if you are able. It is truly a sad day for you all especially, but for all aviators.
Unfortunately there has been a huge amount of utter rubbish written on this thread already about the military, parachutes and other things. The fact of the matter is that two families are today grieving at the loss of their loved ones, and I would appeal to everyone such as El Grifo et al to moderate their personal thoughts and opinions and frankly keep them to themselves..
The facts of this tragedy will emerge, but until then, lets try to display a modicum of respect for those fellow aviators (and that includes the cadet) that we have ALL lost.
RIP
The Winco