Russian Overflights by RAF Crews during the "Cold War"
Super thread, slightly off track though, istr that we had a F.Lt. Michael Bradley flying Canberra's on 51 in the 60's, anyone know if it was the same guy?
Regards, Den.
Regards, Den.
Always found it slightly surprising that WH726 would be considered for the Kapustin Yar sortie. I've always understood the Robin camera was designed for oblique work, looking over borders. Not really much point in standing-off from Kapustin Yar since the aircraft was already deep inside Soviet airspace (and I don't think the Soviets had SAMs in those days?). You'd have thought a PR.3 with a fan of F.52s flying directly over the site would have been a better bet (and the PR.3 had longer range as well).
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Fantastic reading so far, please keep memories and anecdotes comming. 
However, I'd love to hear about over flights of the UK by Soviet air crews.
Is there anyone out there who could start a new thread about this ? It would make great reading.
Hats off to all you guys who did this dangerous and exciting work for us
However, I'd love to hear about over flights of the UK by Soviet air crews.
Is there anyone out there who could start a new thread about this ? It would make great reading.
Hats off to all you guys who did this dangerous and exciting work for us
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So, has there been any overflights by the Russians of UK airspace a la Ju Jitsu and the like? I'm sure that at the height of the cold war a few Aeroflot cabs had cameras running but where there any actual sneaky-beaky incursions? Anything official? Anecdotal? Mate-of-a-mate? Or were they all ridden off abeam Saxa Vord? I can't recollect any stories of Bears wazzing down Aldershot high street. Or are the Black Omegas allready drawing up outside? 
(The Backfire? off Scarborough and Open Skies excepted)
(The Backfire? off Scarborough and Open Skies excepted)
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Russian Overflights of the UK
There were a number of occasions during the Cold War when Aeroflot aircraft ‘accidently’ strayed off-route over East Anglia when inbound to London, presumably to photograph the various US and UK bases concentrated in that area. Many Aeroflot aircraft were fitted with cameras and, given the relatively small size of the UK and the location of the civil airways, it’s fairly safe to assume that they obtained most if not all of the photos they needed by simply flying along airways during the summer months. All Warsaw Pact civil aircraft were tracked by the UK Fighter Controller organisation but, to the best of my knowledge, little if any action was taken when they went a bit off-route.
More significantly the Soviets lacked a long range high-level reconnaissance aircraft with the capabilities of the U-2. They did build the Yakovlev Yak-25RD Mandrake, which probably overflew various Middle East countries, China, India and Pakistan but lacked the performance to risk overflying the NATO countries, where it cruised along the boundaries instead. Had the Mandrake ever tried to overfly the US from say Cuba, I doubt it would have got very far. The Russians also tried to reverse engineer the U-2, but failed to produce an aircraft of similar performance. Instead the Russians relied on satellite reconnaissance and probably friendly agents in a C-172 overflying areas of interest early on a Sunday morning to take a few photos.
Heimdall
More significantly the Soviets lacked a long range high-level reconnaissance aircraft with the capabilities of the U-2. They did build the Yakovlev Yak-25RD Mandrake, which probably overflew various Middle East countries, China, India and Pakistan but lacked the performance to risk overflying the NATO countries, where it cruised along the boundaries instead. Had the Mandrake ever tried to overfly the US from say Cuba, I doubt it would have got very far. The Russians also tried to reverse engineer the U-2, but failed to produce an aircraft of similar performance. Instead the Russians relied on satellite reconnaissance and probably friendly agents in a C-172 overflying areas of interest early on a Sunday morning to take a few photos.
Heimdall
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The Russians also tried to reverse engineer the (add name of aircraft)
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Information
Hello,
I am a journalist working for The Mail on Sunday and was wondering if anyone here had more information on civilian aircraft being used for covert over flight work.
This can be from any time, and from any angle,
i.e. anyone involved in actually clambering into the bowls of civilian airliners to take the pictures or any one else involved in the practice in what ever capacity.
It is a fascinating practice and one that I feel would lend itself to well to a Sunday newspaper spread.
It would also be a fitting tribute to the nameless servicemen who undertook such dangerous work in the course of serving their country.
Any information supplied will be treated with the strictest confidence.
Oliver Tree
07876436290
I am a journalist working for The Mail on Sunday and was wondering if anyone here had more information on civilian aircraft being used for covert over flight work.
This can be from any time, and from any angle,
i.e. anyone involved in actually clambering into the bowls of civilian airliners to take the pictures or any one else involved in the practice in what ever capacity.
It is a fascinating practice and one that I feel would lend itself to well to a Sunday newspaper spread.
It would also be a fitting tribute to the nameless servicemen who undertook such dangerous work in the course of serving their country.
Any information supplied will be treated with the strictest confidence.
Oliver Tree
07876436290
Gentleman Aviator
Oliver
there may be something lurking on the SpyFlight site,which is run by our own dear Heimdall.
Alternatively, a PM to Heimdall might be useful .....
there may be something lurking on the SpyFlight site,which is run by our own dear Heimdall.
Alternatively, a PM to Heimdall might be useful .....
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RAF Missions in the U-2
Just to clean-up the RAF involvement with the U-2 story. I have been communicating with a USAF pilot who used to fly the SR-71 Blackbird. He has taken it upon himself to keep a log of everyone that flew in the A12 Oxcart / SR-71 Blackbird & has confirmed that there was no RAF involvement in eith Oxcart or Blackbird.
I mentioned to him about the eleven RAF pilots that converted to & flew missions in the U-2. He wrote back "Don't you mean the 13 RAF pilots"? & sent me a list of all 741 pilots that flew the U-2 between 1955 & 2001. Sure enough, there were two extra names on the list that I hadn't heard about before. Sqd Ldr Ian McBride, who converted in 1971 & Sqd Ldr Ronald Shimmons, who converted in 1972.
I mentioned to him about the eleven RAF pilots that converted to & flew missions in the U-2. He wrote back "Don't you mean the 13 RAF pilots"? & sent me a list of all 741 pilots that flew the U-2 between 1955 & 2001. Sure enough, there were two extra names on the list that I hadn't heard about before. Sqd Ldr Ian McBride, who converted in 1971 & Sqd Ldr Ronald Shimmons, who converted in 1972.
Does anyone know who provided Met for these penetrations?
I ask because I had to be cleared to an unusual level when I was appointed to a post which had line management of a Met Office where all the forecasters had to be similarly cleared. For what it is worth, none of them ever leaked anything to my knowledge.
So I know very very little!
I ask because I had to be cleared to an unusual level when I was appointed to a post which had line management of a Met Office where all the forecasters had to be similarly cleared. For what it is worth, none of them ever leaked anything to my knowledge.
So I know very very little!
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Mega-reply
I hope you don't mind me dropping in out of the blue here, and responding to a very very very long thread, but here goes:
To start with, I've watch a program that I seem to recall had Vulcans over the USSR. Is this not the case? According to the postings here, I seem to have mis-recalled this, I'm certain I saw the "Timewatch" episode mentioned on this page.
Ok, some notes:
tonytech2:
Soviet aircraft made overflights deep into Canada on a regular basis, or at least so we were told. Bears were common occurrences, and have become one again more recently. These were common enough that the MIDIZ was (is?) enforced throughout and many "interceptions" were carried out over the southern area of Canada.
In one incident I remember during the 1980s, F-4's from somewhere in upstate NY broke Mach above our home near Bradford Ontario. I slept through the incident, but a friend in town though it was the local steel plant blowing up. In this case it was a locally registered airliner.
Barnstormer/VIProds:
I don't understand how the presence of flak suggests some sort of spy activity. Certainly the Germans had no problem greeting Bomber Command and the USAAF with lots of flak in precisely the same way, and I don't know of anyone suggesting they were being tipped off by anything other than radar. That there would be flak around Kiev, and that it would have radar, hardly seems surprising or indicative of something nefarious.
Is there something special about this that does make this suggestion?
VIProds:
"Some other reports say that WH726 was shot at & hit, but this seems to dispel that"
I wonder if there is some confusion with the MiG-17 intercepts of the US RB-47s?
"when we invented & developed the first Jet engine"
No no no, you need to disabuse yourself of this, it's wrong. See:
Timeline of jet power - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
And don't tell me not to trust it, I wrote it after *considerable* effort.
Pontius Navigator:
"I suspect the penetration was actually against the mid-Canada Line and not the DEW line."
I suspect it was neither - both DEW and the MCL date to 1957. I believe, strongly, that the radars in question were the Pinetree Line, one of which is at Goose Bay (C-24). These were *very* simple pulse-radar stations, perfect for jamming. The MCL line was a bistatic CW doppler system, definitely a different beast entirely.
Gainesy:
So, what is the hole in question? Storage for what?
To start with, I've watch a program that I seem to recall had Vulcans over the USSR. Is this not the case? According to the postings here, I seem to have mis-recalled this, I'm certain I saw the "Timewatch" episode mentioned on this page.
Ok, some notes:
tonytech2:
Soviet aircraft made overflights deep into Canada on a regular basis, or at least so we were told. Bears were common occurrences, and have become one again more recently. These were common enough that the MIDIZ was (is?) enforced throughout and many "interceptions" were carried out over the southern area of Canada.
In one incident I remember during the 1980s, F-4's from somewhere in upstate NY broke Mach above our home near Bradford Ontario. I slept through the incident, but a friend in town though it was the local steel plant blowing up. In this case it was a locally registered airliner.
Barnstormer/VIProds:
I don't understand how the presence of flak suggests some sort of spy activity. Certainly the Germans had no problem greeting Bomber Command and the USAAF with lots of flak in precisely the same way, and I don't know of anyone suggesting they were being tipped off by anything other than radar. That there would be flak around Kiev, and that it would have radar, hardly seems surprising or indicative of something nefarious.
Is there something special about this that does make this suggestion?
VIProds:
"Some other reports say that WH726 was shot at & hit, but this seems to dispel that"
I wonder if there is some confusion with the MiG-17 intercepts of the US RB-47s?
"when we invented & developed the first Jet engine"
No no no, you need to disabuse yourself of this, it's wrong. See:
Timeline of jet power - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
And don't tell me not to trust it, I wrote it after *considerable* effort.
Pontius Navigator:
"I suspect the penetration was actually against the mid-Canada Line and not the DEW line."
I suspect it was neither - both DEW and the MCL date to 1957. I believe, strongly, that the radars in question were the Pinetree Line, one of which is at Goose Bay (C-24). These were *very* simple pulse-radar stations, perfect for jamming. The MCL line was a bistatic CW doppler system, definitely a different beast entirely.
Gainesy:
So, what is the hole in question? Storage for what?
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RAF overflights
I am researching the history of RAF Sculthorpe and was very interested in the latter sent by Squadron Leader John Crampton about the secret overflights. Is it possible for me to quote some of this material in my planned book?
Saw from latest Flypast that Bob McA Furze had died recently - my A Sqn squadron commander when I was a cadet at Cranwell - would have been a interesting bit of info had we known about his past interesting career. RIP
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
I believe, strongly, that the radars in question were the Pinetree Line, one of which is at Goose Bay (C-24). These were *very* simple pulse-radar stations, perfect for jamming. The MCL line was a bistatic CW doppler system, definitely a different beast entirely.
Gainesy:
So, what is the hole in question? Storage for what?
Gainesy:
So, what is the hole in question? Storage for what?
Gainesy is now in a far far better place and you will need to wait for some little time before you might meet again. RIP.
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Two more RAF pilots converted to U-2
PN Sorry to hear about Gainesy.
I have just been informed by a friend (ex Wing Commander Canberra pilot) that Two other RAF pilots were trained & converted to the Lockheed U-2.
In November 1958, Brian Cox & Bunny Austin were converting to the U-2. Bunny married while they were on the conversion course, which ruled him out of U-2 ops.
Brian went to Halton from Laughlin AFB on holding. In March 1960 he received a 'phone call saying that he was to return to U-2 & then another saying "to stand down again" after Gary Powers was shot down.
Everything went quiet, so Brian also married on 31/12/60, so the next U-2 pilot was Webster in March 1961.
So, we now have up to 15 RAF pilots that converted to the U-2. TWO RAF pilots converted to the B-2 Stealth Bomber & NO RAF involvement on the A12 Oxcart / SR71 Blackbird - unless you know otherwise ?
I have just been informed by a friend (ex Wing Commander Canberra pilot) that Two other RAF pilots were trained & converted to the Lockheed U-2.
In November 1958, Brian Cox & Bunny Austin were converting to the U-2. Bunny married while they were on the conversion course, which ruled him out of U-2 ops.
Brian went to Halton from Laughlin AFB on holding. In March 1960 he received a 'phone call saying that he was to return to U-2 & then another saying "to stand down again" after Gary Powers was shot down.
Everything went quiet, so Brian also married on 31/12/60, so the next U-2 pilot was Webster in March 1961.
So, we now have up to 15 RAF pilots that converted to the U-2. TWO RAF pilots converted to the B-2 Stealth Bomber & NO RAF involvement on the A12 Oxcart / SR71 Blackbird - unless you know otherwise ?
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Plus 8 to fly the F-117 (plus two who had a few flights)
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Shoot downs of US Reconnaissance Aircraft
Interesting de-classified PDF form the NSA;
http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/_file...o_be_there.pdf
SIGINT on 13 Shootdowns of US 'Spy Planes'
coldair
http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/_file...o_be_there.pdf
SIGINT on 13 Shootdowns of US 'Spy Planes'
coldair
Last edited by coldair; 13th May 2012 at 01:00.