Russian Overflights by RAF Crews during the "Cold War"
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Urban legend or not it was a trick the Russian Bears have often used on us particularly when we had the VC10 K2 which had a relatively high stall speed. Not that we got that close to them (it says here) but if there were a couple around then the no2 would sneak up behind, both would slow up and leave us in a uncomfortable sandwich which meant we had to drop out of position.
Us get close to Bears? We wouldn't do such a thing, would we, eh Arters...
?
Probably just another urban myth, but one of my UAS QFIs in the early 1970s told me that, back in the pre-Duncan Sandys
1950s in RAFG, a co-ordinted bunch of HM's jets at various RAFG stations sat waiting for a clag filled frontal system to wend its way across RAFG until it was just hitting East Germany. Then they all roared off towards the east, prompting loads of MiGs to scramble. 5-10 minutes later, they all returned to the west.
By then the MiGs were airborne - but when they tried to land the weather at their aerodromes was duff. So quite a few had to bail out....
As I say, probably an urban myth.
?Probably just another urban myth, but one of my UAS QFIs in the early 1970s told me that, back in the pre-Duncan Sandys
1950s in RAFG, a co-ordinted bunch of HM's jets at various RAFG stations sat waiting for a clag filled frontal system to wend its way across RAFG until it was just hitting East Germany. Then they all roared off towards the east, prompting loads of MiGs to scramble. 5-10 minutes later, they all returned to the west.By then the MiGs were airborne - but when they tried to land the weather at their aerodromes was duff. So quite a few had to bail out....
As I say, probably an urban myth.
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Urban legend or not it was a trick the Russian Bears have often used on us particularly when we had the VC10 K2 which had a relatively high stall speed. Not that we got that close to them (it says here) but if there were a couple around then the no2 would sneak up behind, both would slow up and leave us in a uncomfortable sandwich which meant we had to drop out of position.
Then we eased back in to one may and, without looking, he turned in to us. Fortunately he pulled and we pushed. We were at 400 feet.
The BOI would have been interesting - Nimrod and May disappear in Norwegian Sea in mysterious circumstances. Unfortunately the photos didn't come out. Someone careless had the prints face to face when they were still wet and there was equal carelessness with the negs.
814man,
Just to say how fascinating your photos and narratives have been (as well as others who have commented!!) – certainly been an eye-opener for me. I came in at the tail end of all this but do recall the joys of training on the 177A (ex-FAA!) but find the whole Cold War era fascinating (including the overflights etc, etc). Sadly, often think I was born 20 years too late to be part of some real “History”!
Cheers, H ‘n’ H
Just to say how fascinating your photos and narratives have been (as well as others who have commented!!) – certainly been an eye-opener for me. I came in at the tail end of all this but do recall the joys of training on the 177A (ex-FAA!) but find the whole Cold War era fascinating (including the overflights etc, etc). Sadly, often think I was born 20 years too late to be part of some real “History”!
Cheers, H ‘n’ H
Gentleman Aviator
Andover drops full flap, puts the legs down, slows to a slow walk. MiG flicks into a stall. MiG never seen again. Urban legend?
Have also heard a rotary version from Cold War days; for which you have to know that a heavy Hind couldn't hover OGE (away from the ground for plank drivers). Hind shadowing border patrolling Gazelle (IGB or Berlin, depending on story), plastic chicken leg keeps slowing down 'til Ivan in 'is 'Ind finds that lift at that speed is quite a lot less than AUM, and he hasn't got the height to fly away and recover ......
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#46, Mike: RAFG Comms Sqdn, later 60 Sqdn, Wildenrath. Some of its Pembrokes were Mk. C.(PR).1, with Vinten LOROP cameras from c.1967, images good >25nm. Plied along the Zonal border and through the corridors, quite openly.
Does anyone know if there were similar Soviet deep incursions into UK or other NATO countries airspace?
With hindsight do people think these flights (the deep incursions not the border straying flights) were too aggressive?
I guess these flights yielded valuable intel for the V Force on any radar weaknesses at the border and a radar picture of possible targets?
It would be great if the RAF crews who flew these missions had their personal stories documented and their bravery recognised.
As an aside, a former ROC mate who served in RAF Signals during the '60s described many years ago how Bears were tracked from their Kola bases to a split for their Cuba route or Bay of Biscay/ Africa routes. They could also identify particular aircraft or rather radar sets from subtle differences in the radar emissions.
With hindsight do people think these flights (the deep incursions not the border straying flights) were too aggressive?
I guess these flights yielded valuable intel for the V Force on any radar weaknesses at the border and a radar picture of possible targets?
It would be great if the RAF crews who flew these missions had their personal stories documented and their bravery recognised.
As an aside, a former ROC mate who served in RAF Signals during the '60s described many years ago how Bears were tracked from their Kola bases to a split for their Cuba route or Bay of Biscay/ Africa routes. They could also identify particular aircraft or rather radar sets from subtle differences in the radar emissions.
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ROC man
Yes, they were aggressive. Eisenhower refused to let the Americans participate in deep incersions for fear that it could start a war, That's why the RAF was approached. When the RAF crews were starting to prepare, for the RB-45C flights, Clement Atlee was Prime Minister & they thought that he might not give permission. By the time the RAF crews had returned from the States after their training & convertion, Winston Churchill had been elected Prime Minister & although he did agree, he did have reservations.
A very popular Member of this Forum has very kindly given me the addresses of two Pilots that were involved in overflights. The Hon. Sec. of the local ACA Branch is writing to them, in the hope that they will give a talk on their experiences.
Yes, they were aggressive. Eisenhower refused to let the Americans participate in deep incersions for fear that it could start a war, That's why the RAF was approached. When the RAF crews were starting to prepare, for the RB-45C flights, Clement Atlee was Prime Minister & they thought that he might not give permission. By the time the RAF crews had returned from the States after their training & convertion, Winston Churchill had been elected Prime Minister & although he did agree, he did have reservations.
A very popular Member of this Forum has very kindly given me the addresses of two Pilots that were involved in overflights. The Hon. Sec. of the local ACA Branch is writing to them, in the hope that they will give a talk on their experiences.
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Oddly enough I just gave a presentation last night to the Lincolnshire Aviation Society on Soviet penetrations of the UKADR amongst others things.
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Gentleman Aviator
Eh iceni ...
surely not enough range to get from Waitohi to Russia ...
..... and what were the Czar's Air Defence Forces like in 1902 anyway ...???
surely not enough range to get from Waitohi to Russia ...
..... and what were the Czar's Air Defence Forces like in 1902 anyway ...???
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post #40
Tavarich, indeed it is. And remains so.
Pazhalsta.
"SirToppamHat As a 'Cold War Warrior', I have to say it's really strange to walk into Red Square"
Pazhalsta.
Last edited by kluge; 19th Jun 2009 at 19:01.
VIProds
Many thanks for your reply.
I hope the USA showed their gratitute for the skills of their special friend. Did we get anything out of it other than the intel the RAF gathered? I guess it helped support our position at top table.
RB-66B tactical reconnaissance aeroplanes were based at Bruntingthorpe 1959 -62, has anyone heard of these being involved in incursions?
Many thanks for your reply.
I hope the USA showed their gratitute for the skills of their special friend. Did we get anything out of it other than the intel the RAF gathered? I guess it helped support our position at top table.
RB-66B tactical reconnaissance aeroplanes were based at Bruntingthorpe 1959 -62, has anyone heard of these being involved in incursions?
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I'm sure I read in the Gutersloh book by (aargh, brain failure! You know who I mean, wasn't he the Station Int O?) about Harry having a Sunday afternoon tea party in his garden, early 50's? with his Sqn Bosses. All quiet, sun shining, birds singing, station closed. Suddenly a MiG hurtles over the hedge, cameras blazing. Staish and co sit to attention and watch as it rapidly departs eastbound. Eventually they decide it's probably pointless telling anyone as said Ivan will be finals for Erfurt by now. Tea consumption resumes.
And as regards Bear bateing I heard from the F4 driver responsible for the badly blistered Bear nose radome!
And as regards Bear bateing I heard from the F4 driver responsible for the badly blistered Bear nose radome!
It would be great if the RAF crews who flew these missions had their personal stories documented and their bravery recognised
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Amazon prices like Easyjet
Amazon Uk has no new copies of "by any means ..." and secondhand from £17+. Amazon US has new and secondhand from 67c but postage would be $13 and take up to 6 weeks. see what your interest has done to the market guys.
Rory (aviateur sans moteur)
Rory (aviateur sans moteur)
"#46, Mike: RAFG Comms Sqdn, later 60 Sqdn, Wildenrath. Some of its Pembrokes were Mk. C.(PR).1, with Vinten LOROP cameras from c.1967, images good >25nm. Plied along the Zonal border and through the corridors, quite openly."
Definitely not fitted with Vinten LOROP but something very different, been there done that. 60Sqdn 1973-1976
Definitely not fitted with Vinten LOROP but something very different, been there done that. 60Sqdn 1973-1976
James May U2 flight
First shown last night on BBC2 'James May on the Moon' which includes him getting a U2 flight from Beale to FL700. Perhaps of more interest was the BBC4 programme following, 'James May at the Edge of Space' which is about his training for his AEF.
Both programmes available on iplayer and repeated Thursday.
High altitude flight was clearly a very emotional experience for him.
Do AEF's come any better?
Both programmes available on iplayer and repeated Thursday.
High altitude flight was clearly a very emotional experience for him.
Do AEF's come any better?
Last edited by ROC man; 22nd Jun 2009 at 10:45.
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Amazon Uk has no new copies of "by any means ..." and secondhand from £17+. Amazon US has new and secondhand from 67c but postage would be $13 and take up to 6 weeks. see what your interest has done to the market guys.
Rory (aviateur sans moteur)
Rory (aviateur sans moteur)
I got a 1p copy. I'm about half way through now and would be happy to post it on when I've read it.