The Navigator in Military Aviation
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Vee En, the point I was making was that the role or the weapons systems operator (nav if you like) has changed to such an extent from pure navigation that the man trained to work in a FJ would need to be comprehensively retrained to navigate a legacy aircraft.
The MPA nav is the nearest to these traditional skills but never-the-less is more weapons operator than navigator.
Now it might become more effective to train those who can land and take-off with the necessary skill sets to operate the weapons system. We already do this with Harrier and Typhoon. We could, towards the end of the GR4 life, do the same with that aircraft. It would make career sense otherwise you may well finish up with 'navs' jumping ship before the ship itself is grounded.
Such a WSO trained pilot could easily transfer to Typhoon. JSF, or whatever.
The MPA nav is the nearest to these traditional skills but never-the-less is more weapons operator than navigator.
Now it might become more effective to train those who can land and take-off with the necessary skill sets to operate the weapons system. We already do this with Harrier and Typhoon. We could, towards the end of the GR4 life, do the same with that aircraft. It would make career sense otherwise you may well finish up with 'navs' jumping ship before the ship itself is grounded.
Such a WSO trained pilot could easily transfer to Typhoon. JSF, or whatever.
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So these 'black boxes' have replaced the Nav?
I hope that any future enemy does not have the capability of taking out the technology that those black boxes depend on.
I hope that any future enemy does not have the capability of taking out the technology that those black boxes depend on.
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I was once watching some modern generation fast jet doing some impressive high G manouevring at an air show. A grumpy old Air Engineer nearby mumbled "I'm glad those things don't carry Air Engineers!".
To which I responded "Know what? I'll bet that pilot would agree!".
To which I responded "Know what? I'll bet that pilot would agree!".
Last edited by BEagle; 5th Jun 2009 at 08:35.
And a fair few sizeable Navigators to fit them.
A navigator is great on a car journey, get stuck in a jam, wake him up and say 'get me to .....' new route quick as a flash, then let him go back to sleep.
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A couple of thoughts
Wrath
"The only thing is with no navigators who will fill the majority of the $hitty staff jobs - because you can bet on the fact that there won't be a reduction in the number of SO1/2/3 'flying branch only' staff appointments!"
I suspect the re introduction of commissioning for WSop's may help out here
Vee
"The point about aircraft-age is not true - yet. There will always be a role in MR aircraft"
I am pretty sure, but happy to be proved wrong, that I read on a recent thread in here that at Kinloss they were using WSop's to overcome the shortfall of WSO's
GPMG
"So these 'black boxes' have replaced the Nav?
I hope that any future enemy does not have the capability of taking out the technology that those black boxes depend on"
As the Nav was only ever a block box interface, we have now made the black boxes more intelligent and we have trained the rest of the crew in how to use them, so I am not sure quite what your point is?
Wrath
"The only thing is with no navigators who will fill the majority of the $hitty staff jobs - because you can bet on the fact that there won't be a reduction in the number of SO1/2/3 'flying branch only' staff appointments!"
I suspect the re introduction of commissioning for WSop's may help out here
Vee
"The point about aircraft-age is not true - yet. There will always be a role in MR aircraft"
I am pretty sure, but happy to be proved wrong, that I read on a recent thread in here that at Kinloss they were using WSop's to overcome the shortfall of WSO's
GPMG
"So these 'black boxes' have replaced the Nav?
I hope that any future enemy does not have the capability of taking out the technology that those black boxes depend on"
As the Nav was only ever a block box interface, we have now made the black boxes more intelligent and we have trained the rest of the crew in how to use them, so I am not sure quite what your point is?
I suspect the literal "navigator" as in "where the **** are we?" has been replaced. When we start worrying about GPS being taken out we'll have to do something, whether that be terrain-referenced navigation or a newfangled astro-inertial widget that fits in the space of a large soup can.
On the other hand I've heard it argued that the backseater may still be needed because the ability of the sensors to acquire info has grown faster than the ability of the displays (even in Dave) to present them to one person. This also reflects the ability of an AESA to multi-task. The result could be a situation where the GIF dodges SAMs and deals with the Sukhois while the GIB finds, ID's and plinks the ground movers.
On the other hand I've heard it argued that the backseater may still be needed because the ability of the sensors to acquire info has grown faster than the ability of the displays (even in Dave) to present them to one person. This also reflects the ability of an AESA to multi-task. The result could be a situation where the GIF dodges SAMs and deals with the Sukhois while the GIB finds, ID's and plinks the ground movers.
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I've always believed in 2 seaters, no matter what the avioincs fit, after seeing how hard it is to hit even dayglow targets on a test range, apart from chums below designating.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Damian, if you read some of BEagles posts you will see he has flown a larger range of aircraft than many RAF pilots.
DF
I think the venerable Mr Beagle only ever did the single-seat Hunter thing on TWU - the rest was a short time on the "Tomb" before going to the "Vickers Funbus" for many a year.
Still entitled to his opinion though...
LJ
did Beags fly only FJ single seat ?
Still entitled to his opinion though...
LJ
Of course you would never have been lost in your aluminum tube pursuit ship. Hit 40 DME, execute 180 deg turn, descend 6000 fpm, run-in and break, fuel priority to land.
Ever flown an F6?
And, er... do you mean 30,000 fpm?
And, er... Hunter, Jaguar.....
Ever flown an F6?
And, er... do you mean 30,000 fpm?
And, er... Hunter, Jaguar.....
To clear up speculation:
ULAS Chipmunk 1969-73 (yes, I know that it should only have been a 3 year course, but UAS flying was more fun than Aeronautical Engineering!).
JP/Gnat/Hunter 1974-5
234 Sqn Hunter RAF Brawdy 1976
58 Sqn Hunter RAF Wittering 1976 - they saw me coming and disbanded, so back to RAF Brawdy for the summer of '76!
237 OCU Buccaneer RAF Honington 1976-7. Not good enough, so chopped and re-roled Vulcan - then 1977-80 35 Sqn RAF Scampton and Giant Voice 1979. Strongly recommended for captaincy but persuaded the system to let me have another crack at fast jets!
So, 1980-81, JP refresher, Hawk FJ cross-over at RAF Valley, Hawk TWU at 63 Sqn RAF Chivenor (won the 'Viking trophy' for best overall live weapons). Much better weather than Brawdy, so we finished weeks early!
228 OCU Phantom RAF Coningsby 1981
56(F) Sqn Phantom RAF Wattisham 1981-83. Then the system reckoned that they'd been right the first time (and I agreed), so back to heavies (VC10K).
METS Jetstream refesher RAF Finningley 1983, then escaped from Scargill International and all the back seat students to hold at Brize on 241 OCU.
1983-2003 VC10K and VC10 - apart from CFS on the Bulldog, then 3 years of child abuse at ULAS. Actually, it was quite fun! Escaped with A2 back to the VC10.
Also ATPL at some stage, as well as civil Flight Examiner at PPL level.
And yes, I do think there's a place for navigators! But as Systems Specialists, not as directional consultants.
ULAS Chipmunk 1969-73 (yes, I know that it should only have been a 3 year course, but UAS flying was more fun than Aeronautical Engineering!).
JP/Gnat/Hunter 1974-5
234 Sqn Hunter RAF Brawdy 1976
58 Sqn Hunter RAF Wittering 1976 - they saw me coming and disbanded, so back to RAF Brawdy for the summer of '76!
237 OCU Buccaneer RAF Honington 1976-7. Not good enough, so chopped and re-roled Vulcan - then 1977-80 35 Sqn RAF Scampton and Giant Voice 1979. Strongly recommended for captaincy but persuaded the system to let me have another crack at fast jets!
So, 1980-81, JP refresher, Hawk FJ cross-over at RAF Valley, Hawk TWU at 63 Sqn RAF Chivenor (won the 'Viking trophy' for best overall live weapons). Much better weather than Brawdy, so we finished weeks early!
228 OCU Phantom RAF Coningsby 1981
56(F) Sqn Phantom RAF Wattisham 1981-83. Then the system reckoned that they'd been right the first time (and I agreed), so back to heavies (VC10K).
METS Jetstream refesher RAF Finningley 1983, then escaped from Scargill International and all the back seat students to hold at Brize on 241 OCU.
1983-2003 VC10K and VC10 - apart from CFS on the Bulldog, then 3 years of child abuse at ULAS. Actually, it was quite fun! Escaped with A2 back to the VC10.
Also ATPL at some stage, as well as civil Flight Examiner at PPL level.
And yes, I do think there's a place for navigators! But as Systems Specialists, not as directional consultants.
LM - at RAFC Cranwell. Started flying with 2 Sqn Jan 1974 and qualified Aug 74. Plus a 'Fast Jet Lead In' course at RAF Leeming in Sep 1974, then held at Cranwell until the end of 1974.
Also a SORF course at RAF Leeming in Apr 1977 and another in April 1980.
Also a SORF course at RAF Leeming in Apr 1977 and another in April 1980.