Army major held over ‘medal fiddle’
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I am not be-littling the recipients of galantry medals in any way - however, the award of a significant number of medals is usually a traditional method of reducing the media impact of military/political c0ck-ups.
For example - the VCs awarded at Rork's Drift (plus another few the day before) to hide away the impact of Islwandana in January 1879 (the Zulu series of films for the non-historians out there). The Boer war put up a good few VCs during Black Week when the british Army was badly defeated 3 times in 7 days (including a VC for the commanding general's Son leaving both Father and Son as VC winners - the Robert's Junior medal was for a gallant attempt to recover exposed artillery and sadly postumous). In more recent times, 5 were awarded for Arnhem (Op Market garden) in Sep 44.
I repeat - I am not saying that the medals were not deserved - it is just that a military/political setback is often accompanied by a rash of medals. I now await the incoming flak......
For example - the VCs awarded at Rork's Drift (plus another few the day before) to hide away the impact of Islwandana in January 1879 (the Zulu series of films for the non-historians out there). The Boer war put up a good few VCs during Black Week when the british Army was badly defeated 3 times in 7 days (including a VC for the commanding general's Son leaving both Father and Son as VC winners - the Robert's Junior medal was for a gallant attempt to recover exposed artillery and sadly postumous). In more recent times, 5 were awarded for Arnhem (Op Market garden) in Sep 44.
I repeat - I am not saying that the medals were not deserved - it is just that a military/political setback is often accompanied by a rash of medals. I now await the incoming flak......
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I now await the incoming flak......
The actions you quote, though not great victories, indeed some were defeats, nevertheless involved far more desperate, gallant, bitter fighting than most victories do. It is therefore no surprise that gallantry awards were many.
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Wensleydale,
I take it you mean Isandhlwana and Rorke's Drift in the Zulu War.
At Rorke's Drift the Defenders, apart from Lt's Chard and Bromhead and the Commissary and Medical Staff, numbered 162 men - of whom at least 33 (and possibly as many as 80) were hospitalised. They defended that position inflicting some 850 casualties on the Zulu's at a cost of 17 dead and 10 wounded ( 2 of whom subsequently succumbed to their injuries).
Just what would you consider to be a "Gallant Defence" ?
I take it you mean Isandhlwana and Rorke's Drift in the Zulu War.
At Rorke's Drift the Defenders, apart from Lt's Chard and Bromhead and the Commissary and Medical Staff, numbered 162 men - of whom at least 33 (and possibly as many as 80) were hospitalised. They defended that position inflicting some 850 casualties on the Zulu's at a cost of 17 dead and 10 wounded ( 2 of whom subsequently succumbed to their injuries).
Just what would you consider to be a "Gallant Defence" ?
The navy used to have an arguably very fair system for the distribution of gallantry medals. If a ship had acquitted itself well in action it might be awarded, say, 3 Distinguished Service Medals for allocation among the crew. Very often these were decided by drawing lots. I once owned a Distinguished Service Medal which had been awarded to a crew member of a destroyer which took part in the D Day landings. The recipient was one of the ship's cooks, and according to his diary which accompanied the medal he spent most of D Day below decks baking bread. It could be argued that providing the crew with fresh bread was a big a contribution to its success in action as efficient gun-serving. Whatever you thought of this system, no-one could complain that the medal was undeserved, the ship had been awarded it and the recipient had picked the lucky number. Might not work for top awards, but for lower tier medals the system has its merits.
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Gallantry medals ought to be for sticking your nuts on the chopping block. Doing a good job in difficult conditions should get a meritorious service medal (there is usually a gong with a similar title available), whilst being in theatre should get you a campaign medal. Devaluation always occurs to a point - you can always point to somebody who doesn't seem to have deserved what they got, but that should be 'the odd case' not 'company policy'.
This isn't a comment on the Army Major but the system in general.
When you devolve the system of awards to a comittee who have no experience of the sharp end, then don't be surprised to discover that they don't undertsand that gallantry medals are supposed to reflect bravery in the face of genuine danger. Look on the bright side, at least there's not been a move (so far) to award VC's to random taxpayers, drawn by lottery, on the grounds that we all share the financial burden....
It's very sad, in my view, that 'they' are producing a system where you don't simply automatically view a medal holder with respect... even if a great many were earned in a fit of blind madness!
(I retired without making good my fondest wish - to earn a DFM the hard way, beating out a cabin fire 'cos the extinguishers had run dry (over Berlin, in the searchlights etc etc) ......with the 2nd Nav....
This isn't a comment on the Army Major but the system in general.
When you devolve the system of awards to a comittee who have no experience of the sharp end, then don't be surprised to discover that they don't undertsand that gallantry medals are supposed to reflect bravery in the face of genuine danger. Look on the bright side, at least there's not been a move (so far) to award VC's to random taxpayers, drawn by lottery, on the grounds that we all share the financial burden....
It's very sad, in my view, that 'they' are producing a system where you don't simply automatically view a medal holder with respect... even if a great many were earned in a fit of blind madness!
(I retired without making good my fondest wish - to earn a DFM the hard way, beating out a cabin fire 'cos the extinguishers had run dry (over Berlin, in the searchlights etc etc) ......with the 2nd Nav....
Fly-Friendly
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My 50pence worth....
Everyones views of an event will be different to anothers, simple human nature. This would lead to different version of events from different people.
Also I think this can be shown to a T with a recent publication for a anniversary publication for an "Aviation Org". The publication was very glossy, punchy pics, discussing lots of suppossed historical facts. However 2 incidents they say they did during Op telic (main Push) and at Dogwood where a work of fiction. No aircraft for 1 of the events and another Sqn actually did the daring do. Again another case of humans interpreting things differently.
Heads down for incoming.....
Everyones views of an event will be different to anothers, simple human nature. This would lead to different version of events from different people.
Also I think this can be shown to a T with a recent publication for a anniversary publication for an "Aviation Org". The publication was very glossy, punchy pics, discussing lots of suppossed historical facts. However 2 incidents they say they did during Op telic (main Push) and at Dogwood where a work of fiction. No aircraft for 1 of the events and another Sqn actually did the daring do. Again another case of humans interpreting things differently.
Heads down for incoming.....
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Reminds me of the lamentable giraffe that has become the MBE. With 24 year old females getting MBEs for their achievements in fashion and make-up, one has to question the entire honours and awards system!
Reminds me of the lamentable giraffe that has become the MBE. With 24 year old females getting MBEs for their achievements in fashion and make-up, one has to question the entire honours and awards system!
Then again, teenage Olympic medalists getting MBEs and the online petition for Ryan Giggs to be knighted. Says it all really about how things have become under the current administration. Nothing is sacred anymore.
Then again, how does Olympic medal winners getting MBEs on top of their Olympic medals for arguably just doing their jobs, chime with the govt policy of only one gong per event? Can we all wear our ISAF medals now?
Phillip Lagesen won his DFC in a blazing Liberator bomber high above northern Italy in the closing stages of the Second World War. Aged 21, he was co-pilot of the South African Air Force (SAAF) aircraft when it was hit by a German fighter and caught fire. Although one of the two air gunners bailed out, the other was badly burnt.
Clambering back from his seat at the controls, Lagesen, who had trained as a gunner before getting his wings, seized one of the abandoned cannon and shot down the enemy attacker as it swooped in to deliver the coup de grace. Despite being burnt himself he managed to put out the flames rising around him before administering first aid to his stricken comrade – who ever afterwards credited Lagesen with having saved his life.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Mine too but I never knew that story. Even though they wore jackets with medal ribbons I don't think too many of us could tell what they were. There were a fair number of DFC, DFM and AFC around but no one ever talked about them.
My grandfather had an MC and a Croix de Guerre. Unusually he was a Supply Officer and all he wrote was "I suppose they gave it to me because they would have starved if I hadn't got through."
My grandfather had an MC and a Croix de Guerre. Unusually he was a Supply Officer and all he wrote was "I suppose they gave it to me because they would have starved if I hadn't got through."
quote:
Reminds me of the lamentable giraffe that has become the MBE. With 24 year old females getting MBEs for their achievements in fashion and make-up, one has to question the entire honours and awards system!
A few years back I was proud to recieve the MSM, one of 7 given that year which was about average for the New Years Honours. In 2005 they changed the system and more were given out that year than in the previous 10 years put together...........and that trend has continued. I'm told they have nearly run out of WO's to recieve it so it been awarded futher down the rank structure. I feel the award is so diluted now it has lost it's worth, it certainly has in it's rarity value.
Reminds me of the lamentable giraffe that has become the MBE. With 24 year old females getting MBEs for their achievements in fashion and make-up, one has to question the entire honours and awards system!
A few years back I was proud to recieve the MSM, one of 7 given that year which was about average for the New Years Honours. In 2005 they changed the system and more were given out that year than in the previous 10 years put together...........and that trend has continued. I'm told they have nearly run out of WO's to recieve it so it been awarded futher down the rank structure. I feel the award is so diluted now it has lost it's worth, it certainly has in it's rarity value.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Clue? Google?
I think it actually means a soccer player rather than a real footballer.
Ryan Joseph Giggs OBE[2] (born Ryan Joseph Wilson on 29 November 1973 in Canton, Cardiff) is a Welsh footballer who has played for Manchester United for the entirety of his club career to-date. He established himself as a left-winger during the 1990s and continued in this position well into the 2000s, but more recently playing in a deeper playmaking role.
Sir Ryan Giggs?
I sort of agree with you Beagle, but I always thought it rather nice that Stanley Matthews got his, as he was a real gent. I think we have to differentiate here between decorations (gallantry medals) and orders, which can be anything from an MBE to a knighthood. I think its generally agreed that the whole honours system ( by which I mean orders, not decorations) is pretty well discredited - just take a look at those bestowed on recently disgraced bankers, etc. The 'other bugger's efforts' remark is well made, and I think most people would agree with that sentiment.
The orders business then is pretty well past saving, all the more reason that the matter of awarding decorations ("real" medals) should be beyond suspicion. One think I'd like to see is separate investitures, one type where the top civil servants and the scrambled egg types from the services lined up to collect the appropriate bauble for their rank, and another one where the real heroes got their gallantry awards. Dont think it's about to happen though.
The orders business then is pretty well past saving, all the more reason that the matter of awarding decorations ("real" medals) should be beyond suspicion. One think I'd like to see is separate investitures, one type where the top civil servants and the scrambled egg types from the services lined up to collect the appropriate bauble for their rank, and another one where the real heroes got their gallantry awards. Dont think it's about to happen though.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
another one where the real heroes got their gallantry awards. Dont think it's about to happen though.
I used to get the feel that a DSO was an award similar to an OBE as opposed to a 'Cross' which was actually awarded to the doer.
Now how about awarding the odd knighthood down the line too? That would really make the headlines - SSgt created as KBE for saving life of prime minister - flt lt created Baron for saving heir to the thrown . . .