Jet Provost T.Mk.4 removal from service.
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Jet Provost T.Mk.4 removal from service.
Morning Chaps,
I recently published a book on the good old Jet Provost, covering as much of the history as I could discover. One are that was very light was the demise of the T.Mk.4, especially in the FTS environment. I could find little reference as to why in the mid 1970s many were retired (Halton being one such 'home' afterwards).
The records are very slight, Hendon, manufacturers, Boscombe, Flight Int. all have next to no records as to why.
Do any of you chaps have anything on this?
Best wishes
Bob Clarke
I recently published a book on the good old Jet Provost, covering as much of the history as I could discover. One are that was very light was the demise of the T.Mk.4, especially in the FTS environment. I could find little reference as to why in the mid 1970s many were retired (Halton being one such 'home' afterwards).
The records are very slight, Hendon, manufacturers, Boscombe, Flight Int. all have next to no records as to why.
Do any of you chaps have anything on this?
Best wishes
Bob Clarke
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I was always led to believe that the T4 used up airframe fatigue life at a greater rate than the T3 due to the more powerful engine and the operation of the aircraft in high energy environments such as TWU and the College of Air Warfare. I'm probably about to be dispossessed of that notion by others far more knowledgeable than me. None-the-less, I do know that the airworthy airframes generally rotated through or, latterly, "gravitated" to Shawbury where they were the treasured mounts of the gentlemen pilots of Marshalls of Cambridge who provided targets for trainee air traffic controllers at the Central Air Traffic Control School. But you probably knew that anyway.
Sadly that all stopped on 5th July 1989. Happy days.
Sadly that all stopped on 5th July 1989. Happy days.
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Yes Mark's site is very good and has opened up quite a few avenues of investigation, however it is fairly quiet in the demise of the T.Mk.4s.
I am wondering if it is culmination of things leading to a higher than anticipated use of fatigue life. Clearly low level will soon use up life as will aerobatics or increased powerplant weight, especially when coupled with the previous points.
Some have muted modification of the fleet being too costly, any thoughts on that one?
Bob
I am wondering if it is culmination of things leading to a higher than anticipated use of fatigue life. Clearly low level will soon use up life as will aerobatics or increased powerplant weight, especially when coupled with the previous points.
Some have muted modification of the fleet being too costly, any thoughts on that one?
Bob
Bob,
You have to take into account the time frame of the Mk4 retirement from the flying training role. In 1969 the first of 110 Mk5 aircraft was delivered as direct replacements for the T4 in the advanced portion of the basic flying training syllabus. Also at this time the basic flying training schools were going through an enormous closure programme which began in December 1966 when 7 FTS at Church Fenton closed, to be quickly followed in 1968/9 by the closure of 2 FTS at Syerston and 6 FTS at Acklington, that's half of the basic flying training schools closed in 3 years.
Linton, Leeming and Cranwell were the only ones left and there were sufficient T3 and T5 frames to equip them so there was no need to even consider a refurbishment programme for the Mk4.
The T4 lived on at CATCS Shawbury flown by Marshalls crews, the School of Refresher Flying at Manby and the JP Sqn of 6 FTS at Finningley as well as the small number at Chivenor. A total of less than 50 aircraft which could be found from the overall Mk 4 fleet.
You have to take into account the time frame of the Mk4 retirement from the flying training role. In 1969 the first of 110 Mk5 aircraft was delivered as direct replacements for the T4 in the advanced portion of the basic flying training syllabus. Also at this time the basic flying training schools were going through an enormous closure programme which began in December 1966 when 7 FTS at Church Fenton closed, to be quickly followed in 1968/9 by the closure of 2 FTS at Syerston and 6 FTS at Acklington, that's half of the basic flying training schools closed in 3 years.
Linton, Leeming and Cranwell were the only ones left and there were sufficient T3 and T5 frames to equip them so there was no need to even consider a refurbishment programme for the Mk4.
The T4 lived on at CATCS Shawbury flown by Marshalls crews, the School of Refresher Flying at Manby and the JP Sqn of 6 FTS at Finningley as well as the small number at Chivenor. A total of less than 50 aircraft which could be found from the overall Mk 4 fleet.
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Makes perfect sense
pr00ne,
That makes perfect sense to me. I think that was pretty much the last peice of the jigsaw. So the aircraft were aproaching a major modification milestone, however due to the introduction of the 5s coupled with a general reduction of the training capability, the T.Mk.4 fleet was reduced.
I can knit that nicely into what I've already got.
Splendid.
Now anyone got any stories that surround that?
Best wishes
Bob
That makes perfect sense to me. I think that was pretty much the last peice of the jigsaw. So the aircraft were aproaching a major modification milestone, however due to the introduction of the 5s coupled with a general reduction of the training capability, the T.Mk.4 fleet was reduced.
I can knit that nicely into what I've already got.
Splendid.
Now anyone got any stories that surround that?
Best wishes
Bob
I learnt to fly on the 3s & 4s at Fawlty Towers in the mid 60s; you went through to 1st solo on one Mark and then converted to the other. Esentially, the 3s, being relatively underpowered were used for low fatigue sorties such as IF and High Level Nav whilst the much pokier 4s were used for GH and Low Level Nav, hence the much higher fatigue consumption. The 3s were usually flown with 1/2 tips whilst the 4s were flown with full tips because of the higher fuel consumption--don't know if this contributed to the fatigue usage. A Mk 3 with full tips was a very dozy jet until the tips were empty.
At times we operated out of Barkston Heath, the first instructor to get airborne was allowed to do a semi-official beat-up which could be quite entertaining to watch:-
I've seen air trafficers baleing out of the tower as a JP flew at them exceedingly low.
One a/c broke so low around the tower that from where we were watching you would swear his tip tank was in the long grass.
An aircraft doing a roller on the taxiway just outside the huts as main met brief was on.
On guy just did a simple low run down the runway but then pulled up a tad and rolled inverted----regretably he'd forgotten to raise the flaps so there was now a significant downwards lift arrow in charge. As he disappeared over the ridge going downhill we awaited the worst but after a few seconds a JP staggered into view, thankfully the right way up and going upwards.
At Fawlty Towers, the 2 QFIs who flew past the CIs office, canopy wound back, lots of bank and top rudder waving 2 fingers each at the CIs office, after all he was out of the office wasn't he----no, he'd just got back in!! Lots of SDO for that.
Later, I was a QFI at Linton on 3s & 5s (later 3As & 5As), there the first part of the course was flown on 3s, the later part on 5s. At one stage the main runway was resurfaced and we operated off the short for several months. On a hot day, a full tipped Mk3 gave you some very unusual close views of the woods on the western boundary when flying from 28, I distinctly recall looking the local herd of deer seemingly in the eye as we staggered airborne.
There is a story from Acklington concerning an overseas stude in a full tipped Mk3. He was on a GH sortie, Air Traffic watched in bemusement as he disappeared in a straight line over the North Sea after getting airborne on the NEasterly runway. They politely asked him to turn and come back over land but he declined "My instructor told me not to turn until the tips were empty"!! Eventually they dragged his QFI up the tower who convinced him the instuction merely applied to Max Rate Turns, not any old turn.
Anyway, a grand old aircraft, as honest as the day is long--not something you can say about it's replacement.
At times we operated out of Barkston Heath, the first instructor to get airborne was allowed to do a semi-official beat-up which could be quite entertaining to watch:-
I've seen air trafficers baleing out of the tower as a JP flew at them exceedingly low.
One a/c broke so low around the tower that from where we were watching you would swear his tip tank was in the long grass.
An aircraft doing a roller on the taxiway just outside the huts as main met brief was on.
On guy just did a simple low run down the runway but then pulled up a tad and rolled inverted----regretably he'd forgotten to raise the flaps so there was now a significant downwards lift arrow in charge. As he disappeared over the ridge going downhill we awaited the worst but after a few seconds a JP staggered into view, thankfully the right way up and going upwards.
At Fawlty Towers, the 2 QFIs who flew past the CIs office, canopy wound back, lots of bank and top rudder waving 2 fingers each at the CIs office, after all he was out of the office wasn't he----no, he'd just got back in!! Lots of SDO for that.
Later, I was a QFI at Linton on 3s & 5s (later 3As & 5As), there the first part of the course was flown on 3s, the later part on 5s. At one stage the main runway was resurfaced and we operated off the short for several months. On a hot day, a full tipped Mk3 gave you some very unusual close views of the woods on the western boundary when flying from 28, I distinctly recall looking the local herd of deer seemingly in the eye as we staggered airborne.
There is a story from Acklington concerning an overseas stude in a full tipped Mk3. He was on a GH sortie, Air Traffic watched in bemusement as he disappeared in a straight line over the North Sea after getting airborne on the NEasterly runway. They politely asked him to turn and come back over land but he declined "My instructor told me not to turn until the tips were empty"!! Eventually they dragged his QFI up the tower who convinced him the instuction merely applied to Max Rate Turns, not any old turn.
Anyway, a grand old aircraft, as honest as the day is long--not something you can say about it's replacement.
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Splendid
Audax
Now thats what I call an exellent set of stories!!
Thanks for postings those. Showing my age here -- Faulty Towers? (not the hotel).
Best wishes
Bob
Now thats what I call an exellent set of stories!!
Thanks for postings those. Showing my age here -- Faulty Towers? (not the hotel).
Best wishes
Bob
Gentleman Aviator
I think I'd go for the fatigue argument. I was on the penultimate 2 FTS (Syerston) JP course (graduated 2nd half of 1969), which IIRC had the last Mk 4s on BFTS duties. For curious reasons (tinkering with flying training syllabi!), some of us only flew the Mk4 (no 3s or 5s), and I can assure you it was an interesting transition straight from the Chipmunk 
Two things I can recall about the Mk4 fleet there: first it was shrinking because a number of "bitter and twisted" jets came back off airtest to be scrapped, because they would not stall straight - the fun ones would even flick! Secondly was an aircraft so fatigued that it was "red lined" (not that I knew what a red line was then): "No aeros, navexes only, one landing per sortie." And they let frightened teenagers
off solo in that one!!! ..... and yer tell that ter the young folks today .......
Two things I can recall about the Mk4 fleet there: first it was shrinking because a number of "bitter and twisted" jets came back off airtest to be scrapped, because they would not stall straight - the fun ones would even flick! Secondly was an aircraft so fatigued that it was "red lined" (not that I knew what a red line was then): "No aeros, navexes only, one landing per sortie." And they let frightened teenagers
off solo in that one!!! ..... and yer tell that ter the young folks today .......
Audax wrote
If one was to cross refer that little tale with the one about the Tirpitz bulkhead then the same name might pop up. I wonder where he is now?
YS
An aircraft doing a roller on the taxiway just outside the huts as main met brief was on.
YS
Hi Bob, enjoyed the book - thankyou. I also support the suggestion that the T4s ran out of fatigue life because they were mainly used on the 'advanced' part of the BFTS course. I note that I did not convert to the Mk4 till I'd done 50 hours, and was onto nav, aeros, and max rate turns. This would soon sort out the fatigue life!! I was at Acklington from 63 - 64. At that time we had students from Iraq and Kuwait with us on the course. As I recall one of the students from Iraq did all his exercise in a straight line from take off, ran out of fuel and had to divert to Leuchars. Rumour had it that one of them did his solo night by taxiing over to the helicopter dispersal and staying there for 1 hour - he was found out because his steers ( we had to check in with ATC every 10 mins, when solo, to make sure we were clear of Otterburn) did not change. We also had an aircraft land at Boulmer after an engine failure - caused I think by a dropped seat pin going down the intake. Many more happy memories of the JP and Northumberland. Great place to learn to fly.
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In the late 80's there were 2 (I think) T4s at Brawdy - part of 79 Sqn and used for refresher flying/UK famil trg for exchange pilots. I got a couple of trips there when I was 'holding' prior to BFTS. I can remember the pilots but, sadly, never put the flights in my log book as I was officially a pax - silly boy!
I still remember doing aeros over the family home (at legal min level, mind you)!
flipster
Teeteringhead - we had a Bulldog like that on the UAS late 1990s - Navexes only - solo studes 'n' all!
I still remember doing aeros over the family home (at legal min level, mind you)!
flipster
Teeteringhead - we had a Bulldog like that on the UAS late 1990s - Navexes only - solo studes 'n' all!
Jet Provost T4s XP547 and XP564 were both with JFACTSU, RAF Brawdy in 1976, but I thought that they were replaced with the sluggardly T3A not long afterwards?
They did look good in green and grey camouflage though!
They did look good in green and grey camouflage though!
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I instructed at Manby from July 71 till it closed in Nov 73 and all the JP's were Mk4's. The School of Refresher Flying Course was a basic 30 hr Course; although some did a 45hr Course - for example ex Shackleton Pilots earmarked for the Nimrod who had never flown a Jet. We had a new course every fortnight (25 Courses a year) and there was a high emphasis on low level flight -so fatigue life usage was far greater than at a Basic FTS.
When Manby closed the role of Refresher Flying was transferred to Leeming. Apart from the PCL
we had to contend with flying our sorties with whatever was to hand - be it Mk3, 3A, 4, 5 or 5A. This could make Briefings somewhat interesting as the Student may never have flown that particular Mk before and a formation could contain more than one mark.
When Manby closed the role of Refresher Flying was transferred to Leeming. Apart from the PCL
we had to contend with flying our sorties with whatever was to hand - be it Mk3, 3A, 4, 5 or 5A. This could make Briefings somewhat interesting as the Student may never have flown that particular Mk before and a formation could contain more than one mark.
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We have traced five pilots of our JP Mk4 XS186, who flew her from Manby between 1964 and 1968.
Some of the anecdotes suggest the Mk4 was a bit too popular for it's own good, with very regular stories of aircraft exceeding G limits during manouveres which the 3's just would not do.
One pilot we are now in regular touch with was known for 'sky-writing' the M for Manby in XS186 as part of his solo display routine, and on more than one occasion stresseed the airframe beyond it's suggested limits by some margin. A bit before my time but apparently not uncommon in those halcyon days ..... probably explains why XS186 was retired in 1968 after just four years, a bit before most others, but probably because she was one of the first pair of Mk4's to be delivered to Manby (with XS209) and attracted a bit of attention when 3's had been the only fun before them ?
Some of the anecdotes suggest the Mk4 was a bit too popular for it's own good, with very regular stories of aircraft exceeding G limits during manouveres which the 3's just would not do.
One pilot we are now in regular touch with was known for 'sky-writing' the M for Manby in XS186 as part of his solo display routine, and on more than one occasion stresseed the airframe beyond it's suggested limits by some margin. A bit before my time but apparently not uncommon in those halcyon days ..... probably explains why XS186 was retired in 1968 after just four years, a bit before most others, but probably because she was one of the first pair of Mk4's to be delivered to Manby (with XS209) and attracted a bit of attention when 3's had been the only fun before them ?
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Well now, that solves a question I have had in the back of my mind for yonks! As a lad growing up in the Vale of York/Hambleton Hills many moons ago I would sometimes see some right old raggle taggle JP formation trundling past; that explains it. I did eventaully get a trip in the Linton wx ship one morning, very good. Fixed power, variable noise! Thanks
and a formation could contain more than one mark.
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Mr. Clarke,
Thanks for the excellent book!! I thoroughly enjoyed it, read cover to cover in just couple of days. It was fun to see XW429 in the pictures, I currently own that ship here in Las Vegas, NV USA. We are trying hard to get her back to looking like her days at 6 FTS.
I do have questions for anyone from 6 FTS, if you could fill in some blanks for me:
1) The color scheme is not as the normal training a/c, why the blue top?
2) The red bird figure on the tail, what exactly is it and what does it represent. All the other JP pics on the internet don't have such a thing.
3) The logs show the a/c flown out from RAF Finningly to RAF Shawbury on Sep 21, 1993 around 10am. I understand that 6FTS was the last to operate the JP and the last flights were around 20 Sep, 1993 so I'm wondering which JP was the last "officially, operationally" flown by RAF pilots?
Thanks in advance for any and all info.
Brian
Thanks for the excellent book!! I thoroughly enjoyed it, read cover to cover in just couple of days. It was fun to see XW429 in the pictures, I currently own that ship here in Las Vegas, NV USA. We are trying hard to get her back to looking like her days at 6 FTS.
I do have questions for anyone from 6 FTS, if you could fill in some blanks for me:
1) The color scheme is not as the normal training a/c, why the blue top?
2) The red bird figure on the tail, what exactly is it and what does it represent. All the other JP pics on the internet don't have such a thing.
3) The logs show the a/c flown out from RAF Finningly to RAF Shawbury on Sep 21, 1993 around 10am. I understand that 6FTS was the last to operate the JP and the last flights were around 20 Sep, 1993 so I'm wondering which JP was the last "officially, operationally" flown by RAF pilots?
Thanks in advance for any and all info.
Brian
Re 6FTS - are we talking the 'real' pilot FTS - over 10000 students and disbanded at RAF Acklington about 1969/70, or the nav/rear crew school at Finningley that was re-badged with the number later? I may have some photos of the former but none of the latter.
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and a formation could contain more than one mark
Even managed a Formation Takeoff 
NoD