Bucs and Black Buck

[spheroid]

Ah yes, the joys of checking Spey oils during aircrew turn rounds

The Spey is still in service and the oil still needs checking every 8 minutes !!!!!!

[foldingwings]

soddim,

Thanks for the corrections

the Vulcan did not deliver retard bombs but ballistic

As I stated the memory fades and, in my defence, I meant you to understand that I was talking theory rather than practice. I never had the 'delight' of navigating a V-bomber (took one look upstairs during a Nav School visit to Scampton and vowed to work harder to achieve a 2-seat assignment) and we, on the Bucc, always planned to deliver retards against runways from low level during my SACEUR-assigned days (defences wouldn't allow anything else). When you say that it was meant to be the mid bomb of the stick that is aimed at the target I think I had already made that point too:

QWIs usually calculate to put the middle bomb of a stick on the runway

As for BarbiesBoyfriend, let's stick to the facts rather than reduce this intellectual forum into another inter-service feud.

Finally, if you haven't read Vulcan 607 then I thoroughly recommend it and, when you have done so, go buy Rowland White's follow-up 'Phoenix Squadron' which will be published in 9 days time (Advance orders thro' a well known on-line bookseller). I am currently enjoying an advance copy of the true story of Ark Royal and its air wing and their involvement in the Guatemala/British Honduras (Belize) conflict of the early 70s.

Foldie

[coldbuffer]

Bucc at Stanley

Seem to recall that the Bucc which landed at Stanley after the conflict suffered an arrestor hook accumulator failure (loss of pnuematics) and caused the hook to bounce damaging the airframe

[Archimedes]

At the risk of stating the bloody obvious.................

At the risk of repeating myself from a previous thread...

...there is some evidence from the proceedings of a seminar held at the staff college five [at time I first posted this]years ago which is in the public domain. In essence, the then-CAS said that the plan was to do whatever could be done to aid the Task Force. The planning staffs worked out that bombing the airfield would need '25 and preferably 50' Vulcan sorties to guarantee closing it, but the raid went ahead with two aims. MRAF Beetham said [verbatim quote from the proceedings follows]:

'So it was primarily a military purpose to do what we could with the resources we had. But it did have a secondary deterrent effect, in the sense that the Argentines must have raised their eyebrows and the thought would go through their mind (which we ceratinly didn't try to stop them having) that if we could do that, we could bomb the mainland. We had looked at this, but discarded it because it would have been a major escalation. But the Argentines wouldn't have known that and therefore their Mirages and their other forces were being aware and taking defensive measures in case we bombed the mainland, which took a little bit of the pressure off the forces which were deploying against the Falklands [i.e. the Task Force].

So that was the major purpose. It was primarily a military objective to do what we could, but it did have this secondary effect.'

This was followed by Admiral Woodward, who in response said:

'I very much agree with what you had to say about it. My dark blue aviators said "Oh, it's the air force just trying to get in on the act", but I said, hang on a minute, there will be two things. If they do hit the runway, that can't be bad, they can disrupt it... but also it will have exactly that effect of causing them [the junta] to think they could come at us on the mainland. It is showing reach and therefore it is deterrent. And I suspect it made them hold back some of their Mirages, which could have acted as top cover for their A-4 raids. So I signed up for it and told my aviators to shut up.'

Therefore:

The RAF Black Buck stuff was a blatant attempt to get 'in on the action'.

Strategically................a non-starter.

Tactically...................as above.

If you'd like to write to Admirals Leach and Woodward and tell them that they're talking horlicks, be my guest.

The only points it scored were politically, against the RN.

Would seem, therefore, to have been an own goal by Admirals Leach, Woodward, Lewin and Fieldhouse, then, since they were more in favour of the raid than MRAF Beetham...

Bluntly. What did it do that a local Harrier or SHAR could not have done?

Get the bombs falling vertically because it had the ability to get to the altitude required to deliver them without risk of skipping? Make the Argentine junta have to consider the possibility (no matter how unlikely) that the occupant of No.10 Downing Street might be nutty enough to bomb the mainland? Again, write to Admiral Woodward, and I'm sure he'll be delighted to express his views on the quality of your analysis of the matter.

Unless, of course, hindsight armchair judgement overules that of the CDS, FSL/CNS, Task Group Commander et al...

[Load Toad]

..and - er - contributed to a victory bought at the cost of brave mens lives for the pride of a couple of politicians. So stop quibbling.

[ProM]

for the pride of a couple of politicians.

I was only a school kid then, but as i remember it most people thought that we should and indeed had to go down there. So you can't say it was the pride of a couple of politicians

[Schiller]

Black Buck? Parturient montes, nascetur ridiculus mus.

No. You want to know why it happened? Let me take you by the hand and lead you back 27 years or so.

The scene is the office of the Lord Chief Airship in Whitehall. It is a huge room that dwarfs the large, ornate, ormulu-decorated desk at the far end. The tall windows have heavy red velvet curtains, rather dusty and edged with old-gold tassels and hold-backs. In the spaces between the windows, portraits of past LCA’s look down. In a corner, left over from some long-forgotten colonial war, a punkah-wallah lies sleeping.

The rest of the room is dotted with occasional tables surrounded by faded armchairs. At one of these, the LCA is conferring with one of his Junior Airships.

LCA: Carruthers…
JA: Sire?
LCA: Things are going badly, Carruthers.
JA: Indeed, Sire?
LCA: Yes. There appears to be a war going on…
JA: Indeed, Sire, the newspapers are full of little else…
LCA: …and we don’t seem to have been invited.
JA: So it would seem , Sire.
LCA: It’s a bad show, Carruthers. A few years ago, when the Navy made their absurd bid for two new carriers, we told everyone that wherever the Navy was operating we could cover them…
JA: I remember it well, Sire…
LCA: …and we’re not there.
JA: It would seem not, Sire
LCA: It’s a bad show, Carruthers.

The LCA broods for a while. Then…

LCA: Here’s what I want you to do, Carruthers. Go down to Operations and Plans would you? Tell them to lay on a bombing raid.
JA: Very good, Sire. Did you have any particular target in mind?
LCA: Well, anywhere in the South Atlantic really. If they could hit those island thingies…
JA: The Malvi…the Falklands, Sire?
LCA: Yes, those are the jobbies…that would be simply splendid. The bombs needn’t go off or anything. In my experience, all that does is scare the Army’s horses.
JA: Very probably, Sire.
LCA: Didn’t I read the other day that nowadays our chappies can take on petrol from another of our chaps while they’re all whizzing along together?
JA: I believe it to be entirely possible, Sire.
LCA: Well, there you are, then. They’ll only have to do that a couple of times and they’ll be down there in no time. Go and fix it up, would you?
JA: Very good, Sire.

He rises to go.

LCA: Oh, just one more thing, Carruthers. On your way down, drop in on the fifth floor, would you?
JA: The Public Relations Department, Sire?
LCA: Yes, those are the chappies. Tell them I want a flat-out effort on this. One hundred and ten percent. By the time this war’s over, I want every man, woman and child in the country believing it was Us Wot Won It.
JA: You may rely on me, Sire.

Exit

[Load Toad]

I was only a school kid then, but as i remember it most people thought that we should and indeed had to go down there. So you can't say it was the pride of a couple of politicians

Yes - was only a skool kid too but politicians are supposed to be cleverer, wiser and and less prone to emotional mood swings to satisfy the ego. If you want mob rule of course then by all means carry on.

[hulahoop7]

If the UK hadn't acted decisively, then there would have been no end to it. Think about the Soviets and Spanish.

It was a bullying act by a junta that had got used to getting its way at home, and thought it could pull the same trick on 'sick man Britain'. But it didn't come off, and the bully was confronted and beaten on the islands.. and as a result at home too.

I'm no fan of Thatcher, if she'd got her way earlier we probably wouldn't have had a task force to send South, but when presented with the crisis she was up to the job. The Argies were the mob and they needed to be stopped. The UK enforced law and order.

[ProM]

Hell of a difference between a democratically elected government undertaking a course of action approved of by the vast majority of the electorate, and mob rule.

[Load Toad]

I didn't say the response wasn't ultimately necessary but I'm tired of trolls trying to undermine particular tactics or operations for petty point scoring when brave men risked and lost their lives to seal what was a quite remarkable victory.

Which - if the politicians had been half as capable - would not need to have been necessary at all.

[BarbiesBoyfriend]

Archimedes

You've plainly put a bit of thought into your post and it would be rude of me not to reply.

Your point about the 'vertical' arrival of the bombs is one that I had not considered.

Apart from that you seem to me old fruit, to merely regurgitate a lot of contemporary semi-political dogma.

The threat of bombing B-A? I think the Victor force would have been found wanting long before the Vulcan force, therefore 'carpet bombing' would surely been unlikely. And anyway, would we? Why FFS!

Of course we could of 'nuked' them, but really that's idiots talk.

I've read the Vulcan 607 book-and loved it. These guys were brave for sure. Also the whole thing was a great feat in aviation. I take my hat off to them!

Strategically..................scared some squaddies

Tactically....................as above!

It's not an 'interservice' thing (I'm ex AAC btw).

Some of the later Black Bucks, when they only fired a Shrike were plain daft!

They'd have done better if they'd mailed it to them!

[Polikarpov]

Some of the later Black Bucks, when they only fired a Shrike were plain daft!

At least one of those raids destroyed a SkyGuard unit, with four Argentine fatalities, and the demonstration of capability undoubtedly resulted in more cautious radar usage, arguably to the benefit of subsequent Harrier actions. Not sure quite how that can be viewed as daft in the context of a war.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Why is that a simple question about Buccaneer capability degenerates into the standard squabble without additions to existing knowledge or insight? The original question was novel . The rest of it isn’t and has already been done;
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/273960-black-buck-1-not-cricket.html?highlight=falkland+vulcan
and
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/274721-stanley-runway.html?highlight=falkland+vulcan
and
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/180087-falklands-lgb-question.html?highlight=falkland+vulcan

The ex TWA types might like to be forewarned that there are lots of words and not many pictures.

[forget]

Of course we could of 'nuked' them, but really that's idiots talk.

How quaint.

[soddim]

Thank goodness we are never likely to rely on the tactical thoughts of BarbiesBoyfriend to determine our aims in war.

The Vulcan achievement was out of all proportion to the specific damage of its attacks and it made the enemy defend against a threat from outside the immediate theatre. The ability of air power to project this type of force is precisely the reason why we and others spend so much of our defence money on it.

[Archimedes]

GBZ - a good point, but forgive me for replying to BB's response, since he seems to have missed a couple of things.

BB - if you re-read my post, you'll find that my 'regurgitation' was verbatim quotation from the people who ran the campaign, notably those wearing dark blue uniform.

Admirals Leach and Woodward (and, for that matter, Secretary of State for Defence Nott, who was also present) were very clear that they thought that Black Buck might have a strategic effect, hence their supporting the raid, and they concluded that it seemed that it did.

As for the threat of bombing B-A, again, look at what CAS (again, not my words) said:

But it did have a secondary deterrent effect, in the sense that the Argentines must have raised their eyebrows and the thought would go through their mind (which we ceratinly didn't try to stop them having) that if we could do that, we could bomb the mainland. We had looked at this, but discarded it because it would have been a major escalation. But the Argentines wouldn't have known that (emphasis added)

The point I am endeavouring to make is that the senior RN officers involved in running and fighting the campaign would not agree with your contentions that the raids were the result of service politics or that the effect of the attacks was insignificant.

As for use of nuclear weapons, (a) I didn't suggest this in my post and (b) nor did anyone at the top in 1982.

[MAINJAFAD]

Some of the later Black Bucks, when they only fired a Shrike were plain daft!

They'd have done better if they'd mailed it to them!

Wrong again.

4 missiles fired on the two missions that managed to get all the way down south (The first Anti Radition mission (Black Buck 4) was aborted five hours into the mission due to HDU failure on one of the tankers). Black Buck 5's Vulcan was armed with two Shrikes tuned to home on the TPS-43F Radar on East Falkland which was quite a thorn in the side of the Task Force due to it being used to vector attackers away from Sea Harrier CAP and also giving indications of the carrier task group's location thanks to Harrier climb out points. Both missiles fired at the radar, which just missed. The third ARM mission was armed with 4 Shrikes, 2 tuned to the TPS-43, and the other two tuned to home on to Skyguard transmissions.

Argies switched the TPS-43 off and kept it off, while one of the Skyguard's, decided to light up, and ate two Shrikes for its efforts (Killing an Officer, a NCO and two conscripts). Low fuel state, stopped the Vulcan from hanging around for any longer (it had been orbiting around Port Stanley for 40 minutes), So it headed back to the Rio RV, only to land at Rio with a broken AAR probe.

As for the Bombing missions.

Black Buck 1 did hit the runway with a 1000 lb bomb dropped from medium level, unlike any bomb from any mark of Harrier released from medium level or low level toss. (Low level laydown SHAR/GR3 attacks did put bombs on the runway, but they only scabbed the surface).

[Finnpog]

The SEAD missions shouldn't be under-estimated (nor should having a 'Wild Weasel' like a Vulcan!!)

[Pontius Navigator]

Originally Posted by Archimedes

As for use of nuclear weapons, (a) I didn't suggest this in my post and (b) nor did anyone at the top in 1982.

Nor would they.

It was and remains HMG Policy to neither confirm nor deny . . .

It you declare the nuclear joker then you have to be prepared to have your bluff called.