Bucs and Black Buck
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why is he (i presume sharky ward) referred to as a bearded bull$hitter? is what he wrote or said untrue?
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This thread is beginning to look like the transcript of a 15 minute chat between a Sun reporter and an ex pilot with Alzheimers...
For those looking (on this and many another thread) for ulterior motives, try to remember that wars are fought with (often very) incomplete information and analysis that was anything from 1% to 100% incorrect. There will ALWAYS be somebody involved, who doesn't manage to carry the argument, who actually got it right. In retrospect they'll be seen to be right, and everyone will cluck about how even an idiot whould have seen the sensible path at the time. AT the time vision is rather more impaired.
Black Buck was quite ambitious, my abiding memory of Ascension is that of Victor tankers roaring into the sky at night ... repeatedly... In my view the Victor crews were tops, they supported everyone. That Black Buck actually worked was amazing, that anyone planted an ARM into a radar on the Falklands was amazing, and anyone who thinks that there was some sort of political agenda in the upper reaches of the RAF is probably a teeny bit correct - the RAF undoubtedly wanted to have bodies and platforms involved wherever possible - but to imagine that this was some sort of attempt to keep the V bombers involves the ability to insert ones's head up one's a**e to a significant degree.
Dave
For those looking (on this and many another thread) for ulterior motives, try to remember that wars are fought with (often very) incomplete information and analysis that was anything from 1% to 100% incorrect. There will ALWAYS be somebody involved, who doesn't manage to carry the argument, who actually got it right. In retrospect they'll be seen to be right, and everyone will cluck about how even an idiot whould have seen the sensible path at the time. AT the time vision is rather more impaired.
Black Buck was quite ambitious, my abiding memory of Ascension is that of Victor tankers roaring into the sky at night ... repeatedly... In my view the Victor crews were tops, they supported everyone. That Black Buck actually worked was amazing, that anyone planted an ARM into a radar on the Falklands was amazing, and anyone who thinks that there was some sort of political agenda in the upper reaches of the RAF is probably a teeny bit correct - the RAF undoubtedly wanted to have bodies and platforms involved wherever possible - but to imagine that this was some sort of attempt to keep the V bombers involves the ability to insert ones's head up one's a**e to a significant degree.
Dave
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Thanks davejb for your kind words about the Victor crews participation in Corporate. I was proud of them, having been one of the UCU instructors for some time prior to the event. They were under considerable strain, being required to carry out essential multiple fuel transfers night after night in often foul weather and with equipment that was frequently playing up. Operating 600 miles from the nearest diversion and on very tight fuel plans did not help matters but as I have said somewhere else, they just got on with it!!
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I can remember seeing the Buccs arrive at Stanley, and one did go U/S on landing. I heard it was due to the arrestor hook taking the wire and the hook being forced back up against the air frame. Something similar happened when the first two Phantoms arrived, but the damage was so severe that the next time it flew, was underneath a Chinook, to be deposited aboard a ship for return to the UK. Memory is a bit vague on this, but I seem to recall only one Bucc aircraft flew for the entire detachment, possibly only one or two sorties, but both aircraft left together, along with a sigh of relief from all the lossie folks, glad to be leaving the place. There were two wires at each end, and one in the middle, and there were difficulties with the two inner wires, as they were of an American design, and were a lot more severe in their stopping power than the British designed kit.
Dan Gerous
My recollection is slightly different - you're right that an F-4 was Chinooked out of Stanley but from AFAIR it that was due to an incident that happened a month or two/three after the aircraft first arrived.
As I remember events the US shipped an expert down with a high speed camera and the problem was found not to be the hook hitting the airframe but that the cable whipped back from the end stops in a vertical motion and could slice through the ends of the drooped stab on the F-4.. The footage he took was B***dy scary. That led to us adopting an SOP of "hook down, stay down" to avoid the possibility of trying to get airborne after a missed engagement minus the stab.
Anyhow I digress...hats off as always to the Black Buck guys...
My recollection is slightly different - you're right that an F-4 was Chinooked out of Stanley but from AFAIR it that was due to an incident that happened a month or two/three after the aircraft first arrived.
As I remember events the US shipped an expert down with a high speed camera and the problem was found not to be the hook hitting the airframe but that the cable whipped back from the end stops in a vertical motion and could slice through the ends of the drooped stab on the F-4.. The footage he took was B***dy scary. That led to us adopting an SOP of "hook down, stay down" to avoid the possibility of trying to get airborne after a missed engagement minus the stab.
Anyhow I digress...hats off as always to the Black Buck guys...
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Wiggy, your cable story sounds right, I was a ground lecky, and along with the heavies we had to go and DI the stuff everyday. I got to Stanley on the 7th Dec 82 and the Phantom was all on its own on the pan and had been there for some time. Now that you mentioned the video, that also rings a bell, as there were some tales of hairy landings going around. I think they first arrived in Oct 82, and I was told it was one of the first two to arrive. They were also the same Aircraft that were on Ascension during the war, as I had previously seen them there in July. 27 years on and it still seems like yesterday.
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Black Buck was quite ambitious, .... In my view the Victor crews were tops, they supported everyone
"The whole campaign was ambitious...in my view everyone involved were the tops"
To organise and implement that plan, that quickly, was an immense feat by all concerned. Hardly any other country would have or could have. And few thought that we could.
Hats off to you all, whatever colour your uniform. Thank you
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We also had a brief look at flying down the other side but the gaps between neutral countries friendly to blue was simply too great.
The nearest to pressure was the idiot who asked how long we could spend on task and then ditch. Given a total force of 5 Shacks we could have provided AEW for 2hr 30 min.
While I think the idea of possibly using Buccaneers is fascinating, and the Vulcan Missions were technically interesting, whatever the arguments for or against underlying purpose or effect might be, it amazes me that so little seems to have been said about the Nimrod operations in the South Atlantic.
My recollection is that at some fairly early point in the war, at least one Nimrod mission ran IN DAYLIGHT at relatively low altitiude, around 6,000ft, all the way down off the Argentinian coast - less than 60 nm out, IIRC. That was before they had any form of defensive kit fitted. ("The Four engined Fighter")
It seems to me that was an extraordinarily brave effort. I have no idea whether their mission was purely visual surveillance or whether they were actively radar searching, which would have been even more worrying for the crew. 'Worrying' ? - I think I mean terrifying.
Why was it not made more of after the war? Is it because Coastal (as was) often seemed to be the Cinderella of the RAF?
My recollection is that at some fairly early point in the war, at least one Nimrod mission ran IN DAYLIGHT at relatively low altitiude, around 6,000ft, all the way down off the Argentinian coast - less than 60 nm out, IIRC. That was before they had any form of defensive kit fitted. ("The Four engined Fighter")
It seems to me that was an extraordinarily brave effort. I have no idea whether their mission was purely visual surveillance or whether they were actively radar searching, which would have been even more worrying for the crew. 'Worrying' ? - I think I mean terrifying.
Why was it not made more of after the war? Is it because Coastal (as was) often seemed to be the Cinderella of the RAF?
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This'll cause a fight I suspect...
Nimrods generally got a footnote in the average Falklands book - my faourite ran something along the lines of 'Nimrod MPA also flew in support of the fleet'. (Total amount regarding entire involvement for duration of the war).
Initially 42 were there, coincidentally, for a few days - returning from a visit or something in an Mr1 as I remember. A few days later 120 Sqn got down there (pre AAR), got settled into a routine of flying approx 10 hrs going as far as possible then turning round, doing radar sweeps from high level. Later on AAR came in, and long range recce occurred. Searchwater pre colour was not anything like as good as the colour version, a certain amount of reporting early on led, I think, to the Nimrod recce effort being regarded by Adm Woodward as less than reliable.
After AAR came in there was indeed some rather long range recce work done from Ascension, like all the very long range stuff - C130's etc too - hats off to the guys involved. As Nimrod self defence* was limited to blazing away with a Browning 9mm followed by chucking the teapot out of the beam window in the hope of getting it up the fighter's air intake.... and as Brownings weren't issued you were immediately on plan B....
Dave
* Officially Nim self defence involved a slightly different approach to things, mainly involving pixie dust and wishing a lot, although playing with fighters was always fun...provided they were our own...
Nimrods generally got a footnote in the average Falklands book - my faourite ran something along the lines of 'Nimrod MPA also flew in support of the fleet'. (Total amount regarding entire involvement for duration of the war).
Initially 42 were there, coincidentally, for a few days - returning from a visit or something in an Mr1 as I remember. A few days later 120 Sqn got down there (pre AAR), got settled into a routine of flying approx 10 hrs going as far as possible then turning round, doing radar sweeps from high level. Later on AAR came in, and long range recce occurred. Searchwater pre colour was not anything like as good as the colour version, a certain amount of reporting early on led, I think, to the Nimrod recce effort being regarded by Adm Woodward as less than reliable.
After AAR came in there was indeed some rather long range recce work done from Ascension, like all the very long range stuff - C130's etc too - hats off to the guys involved. As Nimrod self defence* was limited to blazing away with a Browning 9mm followed by chucking the teapot out of the beam window in the hope of getting it up the fighter's air intake.... and as Brownings weren't issued you were immediately on plan B....
Dave
* Officially Nim self defence involved a slightly different approach to things, mainly involving pixie dust and wishing a lot, although playing with fighters was always fun...provided they were our own...
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OTOH it was a dead duck to a Paveway or BVR.
I imagine the high maneouvrability might have been useful. Quite hard for a fighter to get a lock if you are turning hard at very low level.
Presumably you'd then have hoped (in the South Atlantic) that the Mirage or whatever ran low on fuel before you did.
I like the ideas of pixie dust and offensive action with the kettle !
Davejb - that 'also flew' is what I mean. Seems odd it was so sidelined. What you have described sounds to me like something that takes a lot of nerve. I'm amazed the RAF and MoD didn't trumpet about that afterwards.
" Oh, lets go fly unarmed, no parachutes, down off the enemy coastline, in daylight, fairly slow and low altitude - oh, and just for fun let's have lots of radar emission so they can home in on us more easily." Strewth !
'....found Nimrod recce... less than reliable'. Interesting.
My recollection is Adm Woodward was a submariner originally. Maybe he wasn't aware how hard it is to sweep a sea area really thoroughly. Presumably he'd rather have had dubious sightings reported than ignored? Or did he just mean that he recognised a surface air reconaissance sweep wasn't an assurance the area was clear?
(To be honest both at the time and afterwards I found him rather unimpressive. Definitely not one of the Senior Service's most shining examples of how to lead and inspire, IMO.)
Presumably you'd then have hoped (in the South Atlantic) that the Mirage or whatever ran low on fuel before you did.
I like the ideas of pixie dust and offensive action with the kettle !
Davejb - that 'also flew' is what I mean. Seems odd it was so sidelined. What you have described sounds to me like something that takes a lot of nerve. I'm amazed the RAF and MoD didn't trumpet about that afterwards.
" Oh, lets go fly unarmed, no parachutes, down off the enemy coastline, in daylight, fairly slow and low altitude - oh, and just for fun let's have lots of radar emission so they can home in on us more easily." Strewth !
'....found Nimrod recce... less than reliable'. Interesting.
My recollection is Adm Woodward was a submariner originally. Maybe he wasn't aware how hard it is to sweep a sea area really thoroughly. Presumably he'd rather have had dubious sightings reported than ignored? Or did he just mean that he recognised a surface air reconaissance sweep wasn't an assurance the area was clear?
(To be honest both at the time and afterwards I found him rather unimpressive. Definitely not one of the Senior Service's most shining examples of how to lead and inspire, IMO.)
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Schiller’s attempt at humour shows a conspicuous lack of awareness.
He that is disrespectfully referred to as the ‘Lord Chief Airship’, was at the time MoRAF Sir Michael Beetham, GCB, CBE, DFC, AFC, DL, FRAes. If Shiller took the trouble to look up the records it can be seen that Sir Michael’s knowledge of AAR was just a little above the superficial. As a Wing Co. he was the OC of 214 Sqdn when it carried out the trials of the Cobham Probe & Drogue system and was awarded his AFC for the successful completion of these trails.
In 1959, he was the captain of the Vickers Valiant that completed the 1st non-stop flight from UK to South Africa and the 1st non-stop flight to Cape Town.
A look at http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...c-flights.html will put this all into perspective.
The Black Buck flights were an amazing effort by RAF aircrew and ground crew that achieved much in spite of being, as usual, kept ill equipped by bean counting politicians and should be recognised as such.
He that is disrespectfully referred to as the ‘Lord Chief Airship’, was at the time MoRAF Sir Michael Beetham, GCB, CBE, DFC, AFC, DL, FRAes. If Shiller took the trouble to look up the records it can be seen that Sir Michael’s knowledge of AAR was just a little above the superficial. As a Wing Co. he was the OC of 214 Sqdn when it carried out the trials of the Cobham Probe & Drogue system and was awarded his AFC for the successful completion of these trails.
In 1959, he was the captain of the Vickers Valiant that completed the 1st non-stop flight from UK to South Africa and the 1st non-stop flight to Cape Town.
A look at http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...c-flights.html will put this all into perspective.
The Black Buck flights were an amazing effort by RAF aircrew and ground crew that achieved much in spite of being, as usual, kept ill equipped by bean counting politicians and should be recognised as such.
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'The Major'? Did I get promoted rather excessively? Time to double check the pension payments methinks!
(I suppose, at a pinch, Major Bloodnok and I share some features...)
Biscuit - Prior to The Falklands the upgrade to MR2 from MR1 included a huge leap in sensor capability, and whilst being biased comes with the job I cannot imagine a leap to match that of changing from ASV21D to Searchwater. By 1982 Nimrod was well known for its almost magical ability to classify contacts at long range. In the S Atlantic, flying at high level (to maximise range and coverage) dry operators were expected to classify surface contacts - I do not wish to get into how misclassification might occur, but had later models of Searchwater been in use back then the number of ships reported would have been more consistent and less inflated. Some people found what they wanted to find, and it works like that in every war.
Adm Woodward - he'd have been used to MR1...it's one thing to be briefed about a platform, quite another to be intimately familiar with it. In his defence, (and I suspect I would not have liked the chap personally), when he got his daily update of what the Nimrod found he must have been a bit puzzled at how the Argentinian navy kept appearing and then disappearing. I don't fault him for feeling the service could have been better. What the Nimrod fleet needed was experience, and we never really got it - crews rotated in/out during a very short war, in time we'd have been a significant asset but by then the war was over.
Some of the AAR sorties sounded interesting, I wasn't on any so can't comment, other than to agree that to go on an unarmed target down the enemy coast was something that called for a degree of nerve, and - I'd suggest - lack of foresight higher up the food chain....as generally speaking people only have to be brave if somebody else didn't plan things properly.
Dave
(I suppose, at a pinch, Major Bloodnok and I share some features...)
Biscuit - Prior to The Falklands the upgrade to MR2 from MR1 included a huge leap in sensor capability, and whilst being biased comes with the job I cannot imagine a leap to match that of changing from ASV21D to Searchwater. By 1982 Nimrod was well known for its almost magical ability to classify contacts at long range. In the S Atlantic, flying at high level (to maximise range and coverage) dry operators were expected to classify surface contacts - I do not wish to get into how misclassification might occur, but had later models of Searchwater been in use back then the number of ships reported would have been more consistent and less inflated. Some people found what they wanted to find, and it works like that in every war.
Adm Woodward - he'd have been used to MR1...it's one thing to be briefed about a platform, quite another to be intimately familiar with it. In his defence, (and I suspect I would not have liked the chap personally), when he got his daily update of what the Nimrod found he must have been a bit puzzled at how the Argentinian navy kept appearing and then disappearing. I don't fault him for feeling the service could have been better. What the Nimrod fleet needed was experience, and we never really got it - crews rotated in/out during a very short war, in time we'd have been a significant asset but by then the war was over.
Some of the AAR sorties sounded interesting, I wasn't on any so can't comment, other than to agree that to go on an unarmed target down the enemy coast was something that called for a degree of nerve, and - I'd suggest - lack of foresight higher up the food chain....as generally speaking people only have to be brave if somebody else didn't plan things properly.
Dave
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Not understanding the Nimrod capability was not the only Navy deficiency in their lack of knowledge of air power. They were quite surprised to learn the need to protect their ships from low level visual attack aircraft and a lot of modification and practise was completed on the way South once they had been given professional advice on the threat.
They were also not well-informed about how to use their on-board air power and it was not until the RAF contingent virtually insisted on the need to fly recce missions to identify land targets worth attacking that our Harriers were used effectively.
But it was the land forces who were the real stars of the show and even though it was claimed that 'this was predominantly a Naval operation' it was the land battle that produced the deciding result.
They were also not well-informed about how to use their on-board air power and it was not until the RAF contingent virtually insisted on the need to fly recce missions to identify land targets worth attacking that our Harriers were used effectively.
But it was the land forces who were the real stars of the show and even though it was claimed that 'this was predominantly a Naval operation' it was the land battle that produced the deciding result.
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Indeed. Whilst the RN did a stirling job getting everyone down there and the RAF did a fair job supporting operations as best they could it is the land forces that deserve the most credit for the positive outcome of the operation. Yes it was a tri-service effort but its boots on ground that ultimately win battles and to those brave chaps who fought their way across a bleak island at the end of the Earth the highest praise should be heaped.
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Ultimately only the infantry can take and hold ground. Everything else is in support of that task. However, was there ever a more shining example of successful jointery at every level, political, strategic, operational and tactical? The odds against success were enormous. Anyone involved in Op Corporate at any level and anywhere from MoD to the front line can be very proud. I know I am.
Davejb.
Thanks very much for that. Most interesting. It doesn't surprise me that there would be some very variable contact reports - it would have been quite natural to expect all concerned to be somewhat 'wound up', since virtually no-one had seen action before. Perhaps Admiral Woodward hadn't read as much as he should have about the 'fog of war'? Clarity is easy in a training exercise, though even there some confusion should be fed in.
Isn't that what makes command 'challenging' ?
As (it seems) always a very steep learning curve for everyone involved. And I agree, notwithstanding the usual British inter-service rivalries, good co-operation generally and impressively done overall. PBI and Marines are the folk who eventually have to hold the ground, as has been said.
Oh - and I agree Dave, the folk tasking those Nimrods were not using much imagination, to say the least. The 'distance from FEBA' bravery curve again, methinks ?
(On the original topic heading -what a marvellous thought, Buccaneers all that way !)
Thanks very much for that. Most interesting. It doesn't surprise me that there would be some very variable contact reports - it would have been quite natural to expect all concerned to be somewhat 'wound up', since virtually no-one had seen action before. Perhaps Admiral Woodward hadn't read as much as he should have about the 'fog of war'? Clarity is easy in a training exercise, though even there some confusion should be fed in.
Isn't that what makes command 'challenging' ?
As (it seems) always a very steep learning curve for everyone involved. And I agree, notwithstanding the usual British inter-service rivalries, good co-operation generally and impressively done overall. PBI and Marines are the folk who eventually have to hold the ground, as has been said.
Oh - and I agree Dave, the folk tasking those Nimrods were not using much imagination, to say the least. The 'distance from FEBA' bravery curve again, methinks ?
(On the original topic heading -what a marvellous thought, Buccaneers all that way !)