The ADF buys another Lemon
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Although the Collins Class subs ended up being expensive, I would hardly call them a waste of money. There are not too many subs to have ever made it inside a US carrier picket, except our Collins.
Tsalta
Tsalta
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LHRT,
Did I say they were unique?
After almost 900 posts, I would have thought you would have some measure of reading comprehension.
I said they were not a waste of money as they are now an outstanding weapon system.
Is it that hard to give credit to a capability when credit is due?
tsalta
Did I say they were unique?
After almost 900 posts, I would have thought you would have some measure of reading comprehension.
I said they were not a waste of money as they are now an outstanding weapon system.
Is it that hard to give credit to a capability when credit is due?
tsalta
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Did I say you said they were unique ?.
I guess after some 25 odd posts, I thought you'd know what a straw man argument is.
No you didn't.
There were a number of other products on the market at the time the Collins contract was signed, that were both cheaper and proven.
No, I believe they are quite capable, the final price tag and timeline were amazingly different to the original forecast, do you remember the days when HMAS Collins was nick named Building 69 ?.
Diesels have always had some considerable noise advantages over Nuclear powered, but thats not the arguement, is it ?.
Don't believe everything you were told on your submariners course.
[QUOTE]the submarines' total cost was put at more than AU$6 billion as of 2000, compared to the AU$3.9 billion stated in June 1987 when the project was started by then Prime Minister Bob Hawke's government[/QUOTE]HERE
A Diesel Sub kicking ass at RIMPAC is nothing new.
I guess after some 25 odd posts, I thought you'd know what a straw man argument is.
I said they were not a waste of money as they are now an outstanding weapon system.
There were a number of other products on the market at the time the Collins contract was signed, that were both cheaper and proven.
Is it that hard to give credit to a capability when credit is due?
Diesels have always had some considerable noise advantages over Nuclear powered, but thats not the arguement, is it ?.
Don't believe everything you were told on your submariners course.
[QUOTE]the submarines' total cost was put at more than AU$6 billion as of 2000, compared to the AU$3.9 billion stated in June 1987 when the project was started by then Prime Minister Bob Hawke's government[/QUOTE]HERE
A Diesel Sub kicking ass at RIMPAC is nothing new.
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Wiley, have you been listening to the conversations in the crew room or what??? I would say a fair proportion of the junior-ish guys (like me) think along the same lines. 
I think its fair to say the traditional role of recce is changing, like I said Army thinks big A little R in ARH.
Gnadenburg, hmm interesting thought process, keep an eye on out, after all we are "losing" a Sqn of fixed wing... saving K Rudd $X mil 
I think its fair to say the traditional role of recce is changing, like I said Army thinks big A little R in ARH.
Wouldn't a combination of UAV's and modern, sensor equipped helicopters be the way forward ?
A Kiowa type capability in a place like Afganistan would be homicidal.
A Kiowa type capability in a place like Afganistan would be homicidal.
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Seems ludicrous that the RAAF doesn't have the ability to deploy fast jets in a close air support role ( Afgan' )...
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Don't know much about choppers, but I do know that the next combat zone won't resemble the previous one. Cheap RPG's and missiles in Afghanistan and Iraq sent patrolling helicopters up to considerably higher altitudes where their effectiveness was reduced. The absence of demarcation lines between friend and foe in a guerilla war make a low level helicopter gunship very vulnerable, regardless of armour. The PR effectiveness in downing a well armoured helicopter and crew is also very desirable for an enemy force.
Aerial dominance and more accurate weapon systems for friend and foe meant less reliance on choppers for the gunship role as it was deferred to patrolling fixed wing aircraft, which on balance were less vulnerable, better capable of the element of surprise, more responsive, easier to supply in terms of logistical support, better armed and every bit as, if not more accurate (which was the helicopter gunship's main advantage in previous fights when fighting as a helicopter unit).
Modern warfare is progressing more and more towards a systems approach and response and away from stand-a-lone fighting capabilities. The Army, Navy and Air Force will work more intensely as an ADF and as a partner in an international force in the future. I think the best days for helicopter gunships are in the past except for applications involving face to face invasion like Desert Storm, but I can't see Australia invading too many countries in the future. Even then, twenty years ago, helicopters were considered a main attacking weapon, but that is no longer the case.
I spoke with a Grade 8 student in the US today and asked him about his career options. His school career counsellor told him that 70% of the jobs that he will be applying for after college haven't been invented yet. 70%!!!?? Trying to choose a chopper based on similar developments in the military must be difficult at best.
Aerial dominance and more accurate weapon systems for friend and foe meant less reliance on choppers for the gunship role as it was deferred to patrolling fixed wing aircraft, which on balance were less vulnerable, better capable of the element of surprise, more responsive, easier to supply in terms of logistical support, better armed and every bit as, if not more accurate (which was the helicopter gunship's main advantage in previous fights when fighting as a helicopter unit).
Modern warfare is progressing more and more towards a systems approach and response and away from stand-a-lone fighting capabilities. The Army, Navy and Air Force will work more intensely as an ADF and as a partner in an international force in the future. I think the best days for helicopter gunships are in the past except for applications involving face to face invasion like Desert Storm, but I can't see Australia invading too many countries in the future. Even then, twenty years ago, helicopters were considered a main attacking weapon, but that is no longer the case.
I spoke with a Grade 8 student in the US today and asked him about his career options. His school career counsellor told him that 70% of the jobs that he will be applying for after college haven't been invented yet. 70%!!!?? Trying to choose a chopper based on similar developments in the military must be difficult at best.
Last edited by Lodown; 3rd Jan 2009 at 02:33.
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Originally Posted by Lowdown
Cheap RPG's and missiles in Afghanistan and Iraq sent patrolling helicopters up to considerably higher altitudes where their effectiveness was reduced. The absence of demarcation lines between friend and foe in a guerilla war make a low level helicopter gunship very vulnerable, regardless of armour.
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Although the Collins Class subs ended up being expensive, I would hardly call them a waste of money. There are not too many subs to have ever made it inside a US carrier picket, except our Collins.
Tsalta
Tsalta
Yeah Wessex, the Yanks have no idea how to detect and track a Diesel/Electric sub and the "O" boats were very effective during exercises. The Collins calss subs have (like the F-111s) matured into very effective military platforms & it would be great if the RAN could attract enough sailors to man all of them.
Wrt the ARH & MRH, the jury is still out as they have not had enough time in service to prove themselves. There have been some very interesting thoughts on this thread so the development of these choppers will be followed with interest.
Wrt the ARH & MRH, the jury is still out as they have not had enough time in service to prove themselves. There have been some very interesting thoughts on this thread so the development of these choppers will be followed with interest.
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A mate flying the Black Hawk suggested that the MRH90 has issues with landing in brownout conditions. The Black Hawk touches down tail first and can land in such circumstances (obviously very common in Aus).
Can anyone confirm this remark?
Can anyone confirm this remark?
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Hugh, any helo can go tits up in a brown out if the correct technique (for that airframe) is not applied. What I think he means is the BH can handle a greater nose up pitch on touchdown by virtue of design. This can assist in landing in dusty conditions as you can 'pin' the tailwheel on and lower the mains on with a little fwd speed. I understand MRH has smaller clearances with haging bits and as such will need a different technique (flatter) with RVO landings. MRH would smack a tail on using BH attitudes I suspect. Some aircrew have reservations about how "enthusiastic" ones approaches can be into rough pads with the nose wheel config. After all one hopes to get into and out of said pad without faffing about. 
I hope to confirm all this when I move to the dark side (airmobile) get my S-70 transition done
. I am sure more experienced punters around can give you a more pucker answer.
I hope to confirm all this when I move to the dark side (airmobile) get my S-70 transition done
. I am sure more experienced punters around can give you a more pucker answer.
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Wake up to the world of commercial reality
It has been an interesting read, so far, but there is a lot of banter from persons with either no memory, short memory, or are too young to remember our previous dealings with the frogs. It has to be one of the former reasons, or else it is a smoke screen to cover the real facts.
I remember this being brought up at decision time in both the Tiger and MRH buys, only to hear the 'experts', and I use the term loosely, say "Oh, no, it is differnet this time".
BS!!!!! They screwed us before and will continue to do so whilst we have ill-informed, greenhorned, and know it all people in Defence and DMO dealing with seasoned experts in selling defence equipment.
Example: Will the ARH be able to hover in Darwin on a 30 deg at MAUW without the "generous" offer by the frogs to re-engine it for many millions of tax-payer funded dollars???? Why are we talking re-engining before the aircraft is operational??? - see prev para.
Why, after the first airframe was delivered more than 4 years ago, do we not have a real operational capability with this aircraft. I think we have been screwed again!!
I remember this being brought up at decision time in both the Tiger and MRH buys, only to hear the 'experts', and I use the term loosely, say "Oh, no, it is differnet this time".
BS!!!!! They screwed us before and will continue to do so whilst we have ill-informed, greenhorned, and know it all people in Defence and DMO dealing with seasoned experts in selling defence equipment.
Example: Will the ARH be able to hover in Darwin on a 30 deg at MAUW without the "generous" offer by the frogs to re-engine it for many millions of tax-payer funded dollars???? Why are we talking re-engining before the aircraft is operational??? - see prev para.
Why, after the first airframe was delivered more than 4 years ago, do we not have a real operational capability with this aircraft. I think we have been screwed again!!
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Collons Class are rubbish
I don't know about anyone else on this forum but I did 5 years on Collins boats and we didn't even get to Rimpac as we couldn't make it more than a week out and we would have to come back because of
1. Running out of servicable diesel engines
2. Couldn't make any fresh water
3. Combat system would continuously crash
4. Radio's broke
5. Freezer's broke
6. Periscope's broke
7. Torpedo handling system broke
and about 20 other reasons. Anyone on this website who says that they are now a capable and cost effective submarine, I would like to hear from you. When asking my mates who still serve on these vessel's, I'm told it's not that much different today.
PS I also enjoyed hearing a story from my mate on boat 4 who explained to me how a flexible salt water cooling pipe came off and the boat took 5 ton of water in 15 seconds and nearly didn't surface again.
1. Running out of servicable diesel engines
2. Couldn't make any fresh water
3. Combat system would continuously crash
4. Radio's broke
5. Freezer's broke
6. Periscope's broke
7. Torpedo handling system broke
and about 20 other reasons. Anyone on this website who says that they are now a capable and cost effective submarine, I would like to hear from you. When asking my mates who still serve on these vessel's, I'm told it's not that much different today.
PS I also enjoyed hearing a story from my mate on boat 4 who explained to me how a flexible salt water cooling pipe came off and the boat took 5 ton of water in 15 seconds and nearly didn't surface again.
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Through friends that were bugmariners (O boats) that went to Collins Class, they tell the same stories as Crank1000.
Unfortunate really.
5 Tonne, in 15 sec, wow that was close.
The Collins is no where near the worst procurement to date. There was a very comical movie on an American Tank, ?The Bradley Tank?, I feel truth is stranger than fiction.
Unfortunate really.
5 Tonne, in 15 sec, wow that was close.
The Collins is no where near the worst procurement to date. There was a very comical movie on an American Tank, ?The Bradley Tank?, I feel truth is stranger than fiction.
