Gays in the RAF
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I just hope that all the "old and bolds" are typing this nonsense from their retirement homes, because the notion of bashing somebody behind the hangar for being a fudge packer is just a tad out-dated
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I assume he was referring to Beagle's dark comments about supposedly being kicked "in the nuts" (sic) in the dark recesses of a hangar. I didn't think the comment was even worthy of a reply as it's just the kind of attutude that used to prevail in the 1960's. Next thing he'll be shrugging his shoulders when they start tattooing pink triangles on our gay arms! Needless to say (but go on, I'll say in anyway!) if somebody tried that kind of stunt these days, they would be found out and they'd be out of the services with an assault charge before their feet touched the ground.
I guess it just depends how you look at these things. Having a sense of humour is fine, and from my point-of-view all the nasty comments, sarcasm, cheap jokes and all the rest, don't bother me in the least. Some I find funny, some I find a bit sad, but of course some people might take offense. It's all very well to throw-around terms like "fudge packer" but I wonder if people who use terms like this ever bother to think about what they're saying? The term bears no relation to one's sexuality, it merely hints at a rather graphic image of a particular sexual practise that some gay men might indulge in, although others doubtless do not. Point is, the same sexual act is practised by just as many straight people, as any research or suitably-free conversation will reveal. That's fine; I don't care who does what in the privacy of their bedrooms, but it serves to illustrate how us homos have to constantly endure the Benny Hill-esque jokes, even though they're outdated, vaguely offensive and often entirely inappropriate. Should we claim to be even slightly offended, we get told to "lighten up" and get a sense of humour!
I don't want to sound like a victim not least because I'm not - the more insults I hear, the more I laugh at the idiots who issue them. But in a wider sense, it would be nice if some of the more entrenched homophobes could stop to consider how other people must feel sometimes. They wouldn't like the prospect of living their entire lives with this kind of stigma, and yet we're supposed to shut-up and (if you'll pardon the phrase) "take it like a man"... It's not nice, it's outdated, it's vaguely offensive and, most importantly, it's entirely unnecessary. Think what you like about homosexuality but we are who we are, we don't choose our sexuality no more than anyone chooses the colour of their skin. I entirely agree that the forces are not the place for someone who proposes to make an issue about his sexuality, but at the same time the forces are also not the place to allow this kind of "don't ask and don't tell" rubbish to persist. If that's the kind of attitude that some people expect, then we have a perfect right to expect the straight people to shut-up about their sexuality too. Far better to just grow-up and find another subject to get upset about, methinks.
I guess it just depends how you look at these things. Having a sense of humour is fine, and from my point-of-view all the nasty comments, sarcasm, cheap jokes and all the rest, don't bother me in the least. Some I find funny, some I find a bit sad, but of course some people might take offense. It's all very well to throw-around terms like "fudge packer" but I wonder if people who use terms like this ever bother to think about what they're saying? The term bears no relation to one's sexuality, it merely hints at a rather graphic image of a particular sexual practise that some gay men might indulge in, although others doubtless do not. Point is, the same sexual act is practised by just as many straight people, as any research or suitably-free conversation will reveal. That's fine; I don't care who does what in the privacy of their bedrooms, but it serves to illustrate how us homos have to constantly endure the Benny Hill-esque jokes, even though they're outdated, vaguely offensive and often entirely inappropriate. Should we claim to be even slightly offended, we get told to "lighten up" and get a sense of humour!
I don't want to sound like a victim not least because I'm not - the more insults I hear, the more I laugh at the idiots who issue them. But in a wider sense, it would be nice if some of the more entrenched homophobes could stop to consider how other people must feel sometimes. They wouldn't like the prospect of living their entire lives with this kind of stigma, and yet we're supposed to shut-up and (if you'll pardon the phrase) "take it like a man"... It's not nice, it's outdated, it's vaguely offensive and, most importantly, it's entirely unnecessary. Think what you like about homosexuality but we are who we are, we don't choose our sexuality no more than anyone chooses the colour of their skin. I entirely agree that the forces are not the place for someone who proposes to make an issue about his sexuality, but at the same time the forces are also not the place to allow this kind of "don't ask and don't tell" rubbish to persist. If that's the kind of attitude that some people expect, then we have a perfect right to expect the straight people to shut-up about their sexuality too. Far better to just grow-up and find another subject to get upset about, methinks.
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To continue the humourous vein, many here will know that 3 para mortar platoon have endlessly been the butt of gay jokes after on of their members was caught sidelining as a rent-boy in the 80s. In best traditions of army humour, the platoon has never lived it down, even to this day. The innuendo even made it into the Bellylarf last year - in a report of a fierce confrontation with the Taliban, some no doubt ex-army staffer at the paper added the line to the bottom of the report:
Full article is here:
Paratroopers launch biggest battle in Afghanistan for two years - Telegraph
A member of the mortars' platoon said: "The Taliban took us from the rear and we gave them a good spanking,"
Paratroopers launch biggest battle in Afghanistan for two years - Telegraph
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Just don't ask why electricians - and now they are combined the fairy trades, are called DFs.
*fairy in this instance is to be likened to tinkerbell, as they wore white dustcoats and appeared to make faults disappear with the wave of a wand.
*fairy in this instance is to be likened to tinkerbell, as they wore white dustcoats and appeared to make faults disappear with the wave of a wand.
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Tim McClelland
Maybe it would be nice if some of the more entrenched homophobes could stop to consider how other people must feel sometimes. Unfortunately most phobes of any sort do not take ANY time to consider ANYTHING, they have entrenched views which they don't even think through and consider it their right to spout them. They are called boors. This applies equally to the homophobe as to the racist, a vile species I challenge when I encounter them. I don't think I will ever change them but those looking on may decide that the racist I am challenging cannot put together a cogent case for their views.
Before the flaming happens, my wife agrees.
Before the flaming happens, my wife agrees.
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But then, sometimes it's quite funny to let people like that spew-out their hatred. It's not like it matters. I feel sorry for people who might sometimes feel either intimidated or devalued somehow by nasty remarks or cheap jokes, but sooner or later us poofs inevitably realise that hatred is generated by fear, or as a means of hiding personal issues. It's far better to just let the abuse wash off one's shoulders and laugh loud and long - I find that it annoys these people even more which is kinda gratifying.
It's traditionally been very easy for bigots to hide behind the kind of attitudes and humour that service life encourages but those days are slowly disappearing. People have scoffed at the way in which the forces have made efforts to stamp-out homophobia but believe me, it doesn't seem like such a trivial matter, nor a waste of taxpayer's money, if you happen to sit on the gay side of the fence. They've done a great deal to drag the forces into adopting the fair-minded attitudes that our wider society have now adopted and that's got to be a good thing. The people that think otherwise are entitled to maintain their view but, ultimately, it doesn't matter what they might think. Thankfully, we've moved on and if they choose to remain in the dark ages, then so be it.
It's traditionally been very easy for bigots to hide behind the kind of attitudes and humour that service life encourages but those days are slowly disappearing. People have scoffed at the way in which the forces have made efforts to stamp-out homophobia but believe me, it doesn't seem like such a trivial matter, nor a waste of taxpayer's money, if you happen to sit on the gay side of the fence. They've done a great deal to drag the forces into adopting the fair-minded attitudes that our wider society have now adopted and that's got to be a good thing. The people that think otherwise are entitled to maintain their view but, ultimately, it doesn't matter what they might think. Thankfully, we've moved on and if they choose to remain in the dark ages, then so be it.
In my opinion it is very simple......
Most people in the RAF have an approach to sexuality that is the same as to almost any other subject - we generally don't care what you get up to, but don't want it forced upon us/rammed down our throat (I didn't pick that phrase on purpose - but in the same vein am not going to avoid using it in case I might offend somebody!).
The best similar example would be religion. There are some very religious individuals in the RAF, and that doesn't cause any issues whatsoever. However, if an individual were to try and force his religion on others, try to convert them, or mention it in every second sentence, then they will rapidly find themselves running out of friends. If someone, of whatever persuasion, wishes to make their sexuality an issue, continual subject for debate/discussion, they will rapidly find they no longer have an audience!
Most people in the RAF have an approach to sexuality that is the same as to almost any other subject - we generally don't care what you get up to, but don't want it forced upon us/rammed down our throat (I didn't pick that phrase on purpose - but in the same vein am not going to avoid using it in case I might offend somebody!).
The best similar example would be religion. There are some very religious individuals in the RAF, and that doesn't cause any issues whatsoever. However, if an individual were to try and force his religion on others, try to convert them, or mention it in every second sentence, then they will rapidly find themselves running out of friends. If someone, of whatever persuasion, wishes to make their sexuality an issue, continual subject for debate/discussion, they will rapidly find they no longer have an audience!
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i find it unbelivable that there are still so many bigots in the military, and a lot of whom are supposed to be in positions of responsiblity. I have not only found this on this forum but also in my day to day life within the military. It ranges from racism, homephobia to religion. Surely all this should of been left in days past, we now know better and should do better. Just let people live and let live, and until it impinges on there roles and responsibilities withing the military then it shouldnt be of any interest to anybody else.
I assume he was referring to Beagle's dark comments about supposedly being kicked "in the nuts" (sic) in the dark recesses of a hangar.
And An T - good to see your dark sense of humour is still alive and well!
Last edited by BEagle; 14th Dec 2008 at 12:54.
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Blimey - well first-off Beagle, I know you weren't advocating anything of that sort. But likewise, I think it would be a bit unfair to suggest that any sort of behaviour would still result in that sort of response. As I said, if it did, the people involved would be out of the forces before their feet touched the ground. I'm sure you'd accept that the RAF isn't a haven for thugs. Also, I'm not sure what you mean by the term "rough justice"... the implication is that beating-up someone is somehow justified?
Formatonkaplum - I think we'd best simply ignore him as he has nothing to say other than to issue stupid slogans which are presumably intended to be offensive but simply sound rather funny. The last time I heard the "Arsed Injected Death Sentence" line was just before I left schoul in the late 1970's - brilliant so see a moron like him still using it three decades later!
Riley - maybe you need to get yourself some books or have a chat with a geneticist? One's sexuality is established as being a genetic predisposition - that's been known for many years now so, contrary to your comments, it is precisely like being born black. You don't seriously imagine that anyone would choose to be gay and have to listen to rubbish like this, do you?
Formatonkaplum - I think we'd best simply ignore him as he has nothing to say other than to issue stupid slogans which are presumably intended to be offensive but simply sound rather funny. The last time I heard the "Arsed Injected Death Sentence" line was just before I left schoul in the late 1970's - brilliant so see a moron like him still using it three decades later!
Riley - maybe you need to get yourself some books or have a chat with a geneticist? One's sexuality is established as being a genetic predisposition - that's been known for many years now so, contrary to your comments, it is precisely like being born black. You don't seriously imagine that anyone would choose to be gay and have to listen to rubbish like this, do you?
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Before directing anyone to ignore anyone, shouldn't you have the standing to do so?
Admittedly, you are a resident expert on the first part of the thread, but not so much on the "in the RAF" modifier.
Yet you see fit to lecture on proper behavior.
As I'm not in either category, I am puzzled as to why that is.
Admittedly, you are a resident expert on the first part of the thread, but not so much on the "in the RAF" modifier.
Yet you see fit to lecture on proper behavior.
As I'm not in either category, I am puzzled as to why that is.
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
Most homophobes are driven by a deep seated fear that they too may have the Gayness within, the louder the protests...well Shakespeare said it better.
As for racism and homophobes, the main connection is fear and ignorance. People who use terms like Darkie, Pakki, Nigger and Spic are generally the owners of room temperature IQ's. To extend that ignorance to Fags and Queers is very easy for them. The dangerous bigots are the very few with brain cells, and they still only have the ability to rabble rouse and inspire the village idiots amongst them (may even be a couple on here).
Airborne Aircrew applied a very good principle to Gays in the Military which gels with my own experiences; get on with your job and your life and you will be accepted for what you are, start acting like some Liberace type parody of Homosexuals and you are headed for trouble.
I feel that Tim McL's ireffutable logic may be troubling for some...
As for racism and homophobes, the main connection is fear and ignorance. People who use terms like Darkie, Pakki, Nigger and Spic are generally the owners of room temperature IQ's. To extend that ignorance to Fags and Queers is very easy for them. The dangerous bigots are the very few with brain cells, and they still only have the ability to rabble rouse and inspire the village idiots amongst them (may even be a couple on here).
Airborne Aircrew applied a very good principle to Gays in the Military which gels with my own experiences; get on with your job and your life and you will be accepted for what you are, start acting like some Liberace type parody of Homosexuals and you are headed for trouble.
I feel that Tim McL's ireffutable logic may be troubling for some...
Last edited by Two's in; 14th Dec 2008 at 13:16. Reason: Credited the wrong chap
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C'mon people.........Gai Pilot......21.......from Brighton.....!
I can't believe people are falling for this ****!
Mr. Gai pilot, When your IOT start date arrives get on the train wearing a tight leather suit, high heels and a pink feather boa then everyone at Grantham station or on that first nervous bus ride to Cranwell and then outside college hall can make up their own minds if it's an issue for them. I wonder what Lord Trenchard would think at the sight of you and your 'partner' strolling hand in hand around his parade square...
I can't believe people are falling for this ****!
Mr. Gai pilot, When your IOT start date arrives get on the train wearing a tight leather suit, high heels and a pink feather boa then everyone at Grantham station or on that first nervous bus ride to Cranwell and then outside college hall can make up their own minds if it's an issue for them. I wonder what Lord Trenchard would think at the sight of you and your 'partner' strolling hand in hand around his parade square...