Coroner attacks minefield rescue
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It seems to me that the real problem isn't that the Brits in question didn't have assets capable of completing the mission, but that they did not ask for help sooner. Why did it take two hours and one failed attempt before the USAF guys showed up? If the Brit commanders knew they were not equipped properly, why didn't they ask for help right off the bat? This is an on going problem for my community. If you guys need help, freaking ask!!! We're all champing at the bit to help anyone, just ask so we can go.
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I didn't think the good Admiral came across as a w*nker at all. He made a good, credible job of trying calmly to explain what actually happened to a fairly agressive journo who understood the square root of fa about combat or military aviation and whose sole aim was to inflict the maximum embarrasment on the spokesman for the wicked military. The journo and the femail lawyer interviewed later were bending the coroner's statements to meet their own agendas.
That is not to say that the incident was a most regrettable tragedy, as are all actions resulting in death. However, every land action that results in casualties can be analysed afterwards in the comfort and safety of hindsight by ignorant civilians and blame attached to some poor blighter who was doing his best under pressures and in circumstances that no civilian can imagine or understand.
When I saw the Admiral later on the box I couldn't believe how young he looked. I'm obviously getting too old.
That is not to say that the incident was a most regrettable tragedy, as are all actions resulting in death. However, every land action that results in casualties can be analysed afterwards in the comfort and safety of hindsight by ignorant civilians and blame attached to some poor blighter who was doing his best under pressures and in circumstances that no civilian can imagine or understand.
When I saw the Admiral later on the box I couldn't believe how young he looked. I'm obviously getting too old.
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As an aside from what I remember, the guys who died were probably done for anyways. It was a case of lifting them off the ground removed the constant pressure the ground provided and resulted in very quick death.
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Bus Driver,
A ver y good point and your guys help us out regulalry. But remember your guys also need CSAR/JPR cover and you too have only a limited capability. Therefore, for you guys to cover/put on a standby committment for the Brits would require more assets. Where as a 'one off' cry for help in extreme situations then you guys will bail us out (usually - not always - but 90%).
As to Admiral JB - as said before on this thread I thought he played with a straight bat having to be 'accountable and responsible' for policy failings by his predecessors and ultimately the treasury.
However, what is so very surprising to me - and completely amazes me is that how quickly we have lost the so called 'Lessons Learned and Lessons Identified' of the Sea King IRT in Bosnia. Now I love taking the urine out of the Junglies and how they fly that piece of history I do not know, but in the Balkans only a decade ago they were regulalry hauling people out of minefields and became 'experts' in CASEVAC in challenging conditions etc.
Why have we ignored, forgotten and disregarded all of those (harsh) lessons. Is it re-invention of a wheel or political championing from inter-service rivalry and defence companies (as in look how good the CH47 is - it can do everything, including CSAR-X etc).
A ver y good point and your guys help us out regulalry. But remember your guys also need CSAR/JPR cover and you too have only a limited capability. Therefore, for you guys to cover/put on a standby committment for the Brits would require more assets. Where as a 'one off' cry for help in extreme situations then you guys will bail us out (usually - not always - but 90%).
As to Admiral JB - as said before on this thread I thought he played with a straight bat having to be 'accountable and responsible' for policy failings by his predecessors and ultimately the treasury.
However, what is so very surprising to me - and completely amazes me is that how quickly we have lost the so called 'Lessons Learned and Lessons Identified' of the Sea King IRT in Bosnia. Now I love taking the urine out of the Junglies and how they fly that piece of history I do not know, but in the Balkans only a decade ago they were regulalry hauling people out of minefields and became 'experts' in CASEVAC in challenging conditions etc.
Why have we ignored, forgotten and disregarded all of those (harsh) lessons. Is it re-invention of a wheel or political championing from inter-service rivalry and defence companies (as in look how good the CH47 is - it can do everything, including CSAR-X etc).
Last edited by Front Seater; 18th Oct 2008 at 06:49.
I listened to the BBC report. The Admiral was asked about lack of batteries. He replied “There were plenty of batteries” and, again, “There was 7 hours worth of batteries”.
Without digging out the spec and doing the maths, I reckon “7 hours worth of batteries” equates to about one semi-discharged battery; depending of course of type of radio, power setting, whether or not you are continually polling trying to find a working frequency, battery chemistry and who it was bought from, etc etc. This is a far cry from “Plenty of batteries”.
Also, by stating there was a finite amount of battery time, the inference is that there was no charging facility available (given the UK philosophy is to use rechargeables).
His replies are largely meaningless, except to indicate a dire shortage of what the MoD term a “Critical Enabling Technology”. That is, you’re screwed without them.
On the other hand, the Coroner heard evidence which led him to state in his verdict;
Without digging out the spec and doing the maths, I reckon “7 hours worth of batteries” equates to about one semi-discharged battery; depending of course of type of radio, power setting, whether or not you are continually polling trying to find a working frequency, battery chemistry and who it was bought from, etc etc. This is a far cry from “Plenty of batteries”.
Also, by stating there was a finite amount of battery time, the inference is that there was no charging facility available (given the UK philosophy is to use rechargeables).
His replies are largely meaningless, except to indicate a dire shortage of what the MoD term a “Critical Enabling Technology”. That is, you’re screwed without them.
On the other hand, the Coroner heard evidence which led him to state in his verdict;
To reach the position where soldiers stationed at two important observation posts, through a shortage of radio batteries and re-chargers, had to resort to firing shots into the air to attract their colleagues' attention to the presence of a threat simply beggars belief.
In fact the battery situation was so dire that a radio communication channel between the two outposts at Athens and Normandy that should have been open all the time could be opened for only one minute every two hours.
I think we should be told if the above shortages were related to the need to totally recall BOWMAN batteries for REPLACEMENT (not repair) at precisely the time of this tragedy (2006). And, believe me, you don’t replace tens of thousands of batteries at the drop of a hat, when the world’s production plants are flat out supplying the US. Remember, this battery problem came as no surprise whatsoever to the vast majority involved in MoD, or to other suppliers.
In fact the battery situation was so dire that a radio communication channel between the two outposts at Athens and Normandy that should have been open all the time could be opened for only one minute every two hours.
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Now I love taking the urine out of the Junglies and how they fly that piece of history I do not know, but in the Balkans only a decade ago they were regulalry hauling people out of minefields and became 'experts' in CASEVAC in challenging conditions etc.
Fully concur....But don't forget the Wessex V in 1982....again, plucking soldiers out of harms way. Rescuing Soldiers from Minefields is nothing new.... But it is bloomin dangerous....
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I'm looking at this with 20/20 hindsight, and am only FW pilot, but is a winch absolutely necessary to carry out such a rescue? Would it not be possible to improvise a rescue using simply a fixed rope? Could not the Chinook (or other non-winch helo) just land outside the minefield, crewman/medic hops out and helo lifts off again with him deployed on a fixed rope. Once casualty is fished out of trouble, helo lands again nearby and casualty stowed aboard.
Last edited by CirrusF; 18th Oct 2008 at 10:12.
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Cirrus
I think you underestimate the difficulties here. Maintaining an exact height in the high hover in open ground is spectacularly difficult. The SAR boys, who practice that sort of manoeuvre all the time (as a means to avoid re-inflating a collapsed parachute canopy), keep the winchman at constant height above ground by continuous small adjustments on the hoist. Trying to do it just by voice marshalling to the pilot is virtually certain to result in the winchman touching down at some unintended point at some stage in the process. Now that's mostly OK in a peacetime SAR scenario. In a minefield it's likely to get you one more casualty. Even deploying just the rope and a strop for people to self-rescue into is fraught with risk of detonating another mine as the strop drags across the ground. And the idea of setting up a precision hover at about 200 ft for an extended period in a hostile area strikes me as tactically unsound ie you are likely to get shot down. Now it may be that in the circumstances that risk had to be taken, as I understand our American colleagues did in the end - and all credit to them. But that doesn't make it a good idea, just the least worst option.
Incidentally, I simply do not believe that downwash of itself can set off an anti-personnel mine. Debris blown onto a mine, possibly.
Sven
I think you underestimate the difficulties here. Maintaining an exact height in the high hover in open ground is spectacularly difficult. The SAR boys, who practice that sort of manoeuvre all the time (as a means to avoid re-inflating a collapsed parachute canopy), keep the winchman at constant height above ground by continuous small adjustments on the hoist. Trying to do it just by voice marshalling to the pilot is virtually certain to result in the winchman touching down at some unintended point at some stage in the process. Now that's mostly OK in a peacetime SAR scenario. In a minefield it's likely to get you one more casualty. Even deploying just the rope and a strop for people to self-rescue into is fraught with risk of detonating another mine as the strop drags across the ground. And the idea of setting up a precision hover at about 200 ft for an extended period in a hostile area strikes me as tactically unsound ie you are likely to get shot down. Now it may be that in the circumstances that risk had to be taken, as I understand our American colleagues did in the end - and all credit to them. But that doesn't make it a good idea, just the least worst option.
Incidentally, I simply do not believe that downwash of itself can set off an anti-personnel mine. Debris blown onto a mine, possibly.
Sven
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Operation Hopscotch - 78 Sqn
I remember from the dim and distant past that we used to have an SOP for minefield rescues in the Falklands. Never really convinced that it was entirely practical but at least we had a drill that we rehearsed and exercised.
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I think you underestimate the difficulties here. Maintaining an exact height in the high hover in open ground is spectacularly difficult. The SAR boys, who practice that sort of manoeuvre all the time (as a means to avoid re-inflating a collapsed parachute canopy), keep the winchman at constant height above ground by continuous small adjustments on the hoist. Trying to do it just by voice marshalling to the pilot is virtually certain to result in the winchman touching down at some unintended point at some stage in the process.
Also, I don't think that you could effect a rescue of a badly injured casualty, with significant bloodloss, unless he was horizontal in a stretcher. That would mean that the rescuer would have to touch down alongside him anyway, so wouldn't the precision of a winch would be redundant once the rescuer was on the ground alongside?
I don't deny it would be difficult and dangerous, doing it without a winch, but surely it is not impossible?
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In other times, Admirals put in invidious positions by their political masters would have stepped down rather than be seen in a poor light by the country.
The fact that Tony Jonhnson-Burt sought to justify the unjustifiable is my main gripe. I'm no fan of R4, the Beeb or shrill legal evangelists, but nor am I a fan of senior officers who tow a clearly unenable line. Unless you wish to take issue with the Coroner.
I accept that civilians straying onto a MIL forum should expect incoming, but my lasting impression of the interview was that he didn't value the lives of the troops at the front.
One final point, he said "they had the right kit" yet a simple piece of paper on which the mine field was marked was not made available to the very people it could have saved, making the rescue unnecessary.
I've always accepted the notion of "Grand Military **** Ups" and if TJ-B had said this was a prize example and he'd ordered a dozen AS365Ns for deployment in theatre I'd now be singing his praises.
If there is another side to the story that can't be aired in public PM as I am bound by the Act.
Sir George Cayley
The fact that Tony Jonhnson-Burt sought to justify the unjustifiable is my main gripe. I'm no fan of R4, the Beeb or shrill legal evangelists, but nor am I a fan of senior officers who tow a clearly unenable line. Unless you wish to take issue with the Coroner.
I accept that civilians straying onto a MIL forum should expect incoming, but my lasting impression of the interview was that he didn't value the lives of the troops at the front.
One final point, he said "they had the right kit" yet a simple piece of paper on which the mine field was marked was not made available to the very people it could have saved, making the rescue unnecessary.
I've always accepted the notion of "Grand Military **** Ups" and if TJ-B had said this was a prize example and he'd ordered a dozen AS365Ns for deployment in theatre I'd now be singing his praises.
If there is another side to the story that can't be aired in public PM as I am bound by the Act.
Sir George Cayley
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Svensixto....yes it is difficult but not impossible
In Kosovo we had a Puma SOP for minefield rescues both day and night; this involved putting the medic on the wire with a medical kit & winching out at a safe height and then climbing to about 120'. This was relatively 'standard' during daylight ops but at night it involved some above average skillsets! The aircrew were on goggles but the poor bloody medic on the end of the wire 120' below the winch op was without goggles, being trawled at safe height (estimated by the medic and 'aircrew experience') to the vehicle where they would be placed onto the vehicle and then check the casualties. Therein we would send the doctor on the winch in the same fashion - that would have been interesting as we never practised with the doctors!!. I practised it and demonstrated it plenty of times and it certainly required lots of concentration and dare I say it - skill! The problem was we the crewmen, had to winch-train the medics on an ad hoc basis whenever we were in theatre - I don't think the medics realised just how dodgy all this was but they carried on regardless. Eventually SEF called a halt to the idea when some idiots decided to practise the idea in UK at night and made a complete 'horlicks' by dragging the poor naive bugger on the end of the wire across Abingdon airfield!! 
In conclusion; the task is possible with the CORRECT crew composition but you really do need a winch fitted!!
I find it very strange that in Afghanistan the Chinook of all helicopters should not have had a winch fitted when in Belize (Puma) , Falklands and Kosovo (Puma) it was de rigeur?? wtf is that all about?
In conclusion; the task is possible with the CORRECT crew composition but you really do need a winch fitted!!
I find it very strange that in Afghanistan the Chinook of all helicopters should not have had a winch fitted when in Belize (Puma) , Falklands and Kosovo (Puma) it was de rigeur?? wtf is that all about?
Last edited by Dundiggin'; 18th Oct 2008 at 20:32.
If there is another side to the story that can't be aired in public PM as I am bound by the Act.
Sir George Cayley
Sir George Cayley
Unless and until these "top blokes", including the present CAS, stop defending the indefensible and start to denounce the appalling chaos that now masquerades as the Ministry of Defence the sooner avoidable tragedies such as this one can be avoided. This accident, like the Hercules accident, like the Nimrod accident and a great many others has its origins not in the tactical brilliance of the Taliban but in the inept and malevolent machinations of those in the corridors of power, both suited and uniformed. With a new SoS and incoming CGS, CAS etc let the total reform of the Ministry of Defence be a top priority, for without that we are condemned to more and more of these "accidents".
Last edited by Chugalug2; 20th Oct 2008 at 10:17. Reason: Typo: CGS not CDS!
Not often I agree with CirrusF, however,when the Devil drives, it is necessary to think `out of the box`,and maybe re-invent another wheel...again.Why,?,because those that Prosecute the War ,don`t ,or won`t learn from history....just a few thoughts then;
Have there ever been any trials to determine the downwash effects,by all types of helos, on triggering mines(obviously not real ones-using smoke when triggered) ?Probably not would be my guess.Why--ain`t gonna happen!!
Are all helos in AGN/Irq fitted with ESF NOW?(Refer to Herc thread) dunno,but guess not...Refer to John Reid saying in Commons something like` we are only going to AGN in a policing role, not involved in combat` or words to that effect...Refer to history of `Policing there` since 1920s !!Ask Russians for advice..
Do crewmen on helos have`hands-free` comms with the helo,when not on board, like SAR....if not...Why not?(ie. not using a long-lead).
Many long years ago,another war,different conditions,jungle ,admittedly,we developed a system of lifting troops out when it was not possible to winch,60ft of cable, from 200ft, using strops or hooks on a length/several abseil tapes
and then lifting to a secure site/larger clearing.It worked,however, HQ FEAF didn`t approve,REMFs again,banned it,but we carried on..as one has to..
These days,climbing gear has improved,ropes are lighter,stronger,carabiners and abseil gear are simpler to use(bosun`s rig on boats-Cirrusf ?)
A winch-equipped helo is ideal,but smaller helos,less d/wash, could do the job
...however...careers are at stake for the man who is brave enough to do ,or authorise it...
Another thought,the Wessex could deploy smoke flares/grenades, for landing in `hot`LZs....can any of our present operational helos do the same..? or has that been passed over as `old fashioned`?
Communications with Army units has always,always been a problem,with units on the ground,and obviously `unit-unit` is no better...Why,in this day ,with all the f$%^&*G technology ,is it so difficult ? Are there not solar powered batteries,chargers/wind generators that can be used ??
During GW1,I was impressed by a Canforce Major,who carried a small case,about the size of a laptop,who could communicate directly with Ottawa,West Canada,or a unit in SArabia,ie pilots; obviously a `sat-phone`,encrypted,or plain ; Why not now, ? almost every unit/patrol should have one ....or is that tooo naieve?
We also used to communicate,air-to-air with neighouring helos,using `Stanley Unwin-ese,with a touch of JohnLennon`s`A Spaniard in the Works`s`,totally confusing to anyone listening...
I may be wrong,but it seems that,whilst there is `high technology` and sophisticated systems running an HQ/TOC/ATOC/FATOC/Ops,that the rest rely on `a man with a stick`,and that,IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH...in this day and age !!!!!
By the way,is the Admiral an ex-junglie,or a `pinger`,or what ?
Another thought,or two,best CAS,a latter-day A-1HSpad,A10s,or Su-25s....
Anything I`ve said etc,should not diminish any lack of admiration for our troops,either on the ground,or in the air,either UK or Foreign,with the difficulties that they have,with equipment,etc,etc...I`m just looking at it from miles away,and under the affluence of incohol....Cheers,lads,and never ,ever give up....Syc...I`m not as good as I once was, but I`m good once,as ever I was.....!!(Sorry lads, that`s really meant for the ladies-at Grab -a- Granny nights)...
Have there ever been any trials to determine the downwash effects,by all types of helos, on triggering mines(obviously not real ones-using smoke when triggered) ?Probably not would be my guess.Why--ain`t gonna happen!!
Are all helos in AGN/Irq fitted with ESF NOW?(Refer to Herc thread) dunno,but guess not...Refer to John Reid saying in Commons something like` we are only going to AGN in a policing role, not involved in combat` or words to that effect...Refer to history of `Policing there` since 1920s !!Ask Russians for advice..
Do crewmen on helos have`hands-free` comms with the helo,when not on board, like SAR....if not...Why not?(ie. not using a long-lead).
Many long years ago,another war,different conditions,jungle ,admittedly,we developed a system of lifting troops out when it was not possible to winch,60ft of cable, from 200ft, using strops or hooks on a length/several abseil tapes
and then lifting to a secure site/larger clearing.It worked,however, HQ FEAF didn`t approve,REMFs again,banned it,but we carried on..as one has to..
These days,climbing gear has improved,ropes are lighter,stronger,carabiners and abseil gear are simpler to use(bosun`s rig on boats-Cirrusf ?)
A winch-equipped helo is ideal,but smaller helos,less d/wash, could do the job
...however...careers are at stake for the man who is brave enough to do ,or authorise it...
Another thought,the Wessex could deploy smoke flares/grenades, for landing in `hot`LZs....can any of our present operational helos do the same..? or has that been passed over as `old fashioned`?
Communications with Army units has always,always been a problem,with units on the ground,and obviously `unit-unit` is no better...Why,in this day ,with all the f$%^&*G technology ,is it so difficult ? Are there not solar powered batteries,chargers/wind generators that can be used ??
During GW1,I was impressed by a Canforce Major,who carried a small case,about the size of a laptop,who could communicate directly with Ottawa,West Canada,or a unit in SArabia,ie pilots; obviously a `sat-phone`,encrypted,or plain ; Why not now, ? almost every unit/patrol should have one ....or is that tooo naieve?
We also used to communicate,air-to-air with neighouring helos,using `Stanley Unwin-ese,with a touch of JohnLennon`s`A Spaniard in the Works`s`,totally confusing to anyone listening...
I may be wrong,but it seems that,whilst there is `high technology` and sophisticated systems running an HQ/TOC/ATOC/FATOC/Ops,that the rest rely on `a man with a stick`,and that,IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH...in this day and age !!!!!
By the way,is the Admiral an ex-junglie,or a `pinger`,or what ?
Another thought,or two,best CAS,a latter-day A-1HSpad,A10s,or Su-25s....
Anything I`ve said etc,should not diminish any lack of admiration for our troops,either on the ground,or in the air,either UK or Foreign,with the difficulties that they have,with equipment,etc,etc...I`m just looking at it from miles away,and under the affluence of incohol....Cheers,lads,and never ,ever give up....Syc...I`m not as good as I once was, but I`m good once,as ever I was.....!!(Sorry lads, that`s really meant for the ladies-at Grab -a- Granny nights)...
"One final point, he said "they had the right kit" yet a simple piece of paper on which the mine field was marked was not made available to the very people it could have saved, making the rescue unnecessary."
My understanding was that there simply weren't any maps of the minefield for the simple reason that Afghanistan is full of the things and we don't know where all of them are?
Much easier to blame someone for "incompetence" for not posessing psychic powers, than to accept that its not possible to know the location of every minefield going.
TJB is a top bloke who is very good at what he does. I'd echo the comments of those who have worked for him that he was in a difficult place. He is one of the finest flag officers that I've ever worked for.
My understanding was that there simply weren't any maps of the minefield for the simple reason that Afghanistan is full of the things and we don't know where all of them are?
Much easier to blame someone for "incompetence" for not posessing psychic powers, than to accept that its not possible to know the location of every minefield going.
TJB is a top bloke who is very good at what he does. I'd echo the comments of those who have worked for him that he was in a difficult place. He is one of the finest flag officers that I've ever worked for.
Inter Arma Enim Silentius Lex Legis
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Chugalug.
I agree with you! A friend of mine recently commented in an email having read some of my posts on Pprune, that it appeared I was a possibly bitter towards the RAF! I have to say that if that is the way I come across in my posts I must apologise. This is not the case at all, I had 28 years of fun and magic and I am who I am today because of my service in the RAF.
My only beef is with all the t*rds who occupy the MOD and I include in this any one above 1* status, harsh? Yes but so is the loss of good friends aboard two aircraft that could have been avoided except for a costs basis.
I am afraid that I don’t buy this top bloke crap, I was once on a course with a "top bloke" Wg Cdr who was going to change things significantly in the AEW world when he took over a Sqn. Broken promises right up to the moment he became Stn Cdr and then of course more broken promises, he later became a 1* knobette.
I agree with you! A friend of mine recently commented in an email having read some of my posts on Pprune, that it appeared I was a possibly bitter towards the RAF! I have to say that if that is the way I come across in my posts I must apologise. This is not the case at all, I had 28 years of fun and magic and I am who I am today because of my service in the RAF.
My only beef is with all the t*rds who occupy the MOD and I include in this any one above 1* status, harsh? Yes but so is the loss of good friends aboard two aircraft that could have been avoided except for a costs basis.
I am afraid that I don’t buy this top bloke crap, I was once on a course with a "top bloke" Wg Cdr who was going to change things significantly in the AEW world when he took over a Sqn. Broken promises right up to the moment he became Stn Cdr and then of course more broken promises, he later became a 1* knobette.