Blues if not flying
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
CINC told us of this plan in April so you know which buoy that came around.
Now how much will it cost to buy loads of fancy blue demin with the RAF Logo on? All the green stuff will go to the surplus sales for pennies.
Now the denims won't have pockets as they are overalls to be worn over blues. Now if you are getting down in the muck and dirt, but no bullets, then you will wear the overalls. However if your denims get wet then so will your blues underneath.
If you leave the blues off then you will probably perish and have no pockets. Nice one.
And does stores have these blue overalls?
Now how much will it cost to buy loads of fancy blue demin with the RAF Logo on? All the green stuff will go to the surplus sales for pennies.
Now the denims won't have pockets as they are overalls to be worn over blues. Now if you are getting down in the muck and dirt, but no bullets, then you will wear the overalls. However if your denims get wet then so will your blues underneath.
If you leave the blues off then you will probably perish and have no pockets. Nice one.
And does stores have these blue overalls?
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Proud to wear my blues in public, but please can we have some additional items to identify us as RAF - I'm fed up of being misinterpreted as Securicor, RAC or even Police:
1. Clip-on brevets for shirts.
2. The RAF Logo for shirts, pullovers, jackets - the branding is working and is increasingly visible, so why not put it on our uniforms? Maybe as a loop on the rank slides, cf the provosts!
If we are serious about raising our public profile, let's make ourselves readily identifiable to society - the additional cost must be worth it.
1. Clip-on brevets for shirts.
2. The RAF Logo for shirts, pullovers, jackets - the branding is working and is increasingly visible, so why not put it on our uniforms? Maybe as a loop on the rank slides, cf the provosts!
If we are serious about raising our public profile, let's make ourselves readily identifiable to society - the additional cost must be worth it.
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You lot are as predictable as ever. I gave you, verbatim, the text from the IBN:
First post here - yet you all leap on the outrage bus and charge headlong for the sunset whilst writing missives of complaint to The Daily Mail.
Get over yourselves. You, the blessed aircrew, are not being persecuted. If you were, I think the AFB consists of far more brevets than not, so have a word with yourselves. This is far more about the rest of the RAF than you self-centred mincers - if you ever read the whole document and could put it into context you might get that.
First post here - yet you all leap on the outrage bus and charge headlong for the sunset whilst writing missives of complaint to The Daily Mail.
Get over yourselves. You, the blessed aircrew, are not being persecuted. If you were, I think the AFB consists of far more brevets than not, so have a word with yourselves. This is far more about the rest of the RAF than you self-centred mincers - if you ever read the whole document and could put it into context you might get that.
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I have read the entire document. If you are on a flying tour, there will NEVER be a requirement for you to wear blues, except for Orderly Officer, or similar duties. Everything you do on a flying tour is flying-related. Nowhere does the IBN state that if you are not actually flying, you are to wear blues.
Last edited by TheInquisitor; 2nd Oct 2008 at 07:22.
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As a "Brown Job", I cannot see the problem. If I am programmed to fly tomorrow I will rock up in a Flying suit, if not i will wear CS95. Now if I am required to fly unexpectedly I go to my locker and put on my flying clothing (5 mins)
Now if you were not flying and could not be arsed to iron any kit and polish some shoes, and would rather instead pull on a growbag....then that is gash!.
Now if you were not flying and could not be arsed to iron any kit and polish some shoes, and would rather instead pull on a growbag....then that is gash!.
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well this isn't about making us look smart in public
If this policy was intended to raise our profile in public, we would not be required to wear our scruffy, bland number 2 uniform. We look like a bunch of postmen-pats or halfords workers in that outfit.
No it's a COST thing. Number 2s are cheap when compared to a flying coverall. Officers pay for replacements to their number 2s too.
If the intention was to look smart, we'd either have some better flying kit (too expensive) or better 2s (too expensive). Obviously Number 1s do the job but are impractical for daily use.
BTW those that are concerned about wings on number 2s should be aware that you CAN wear them on your blue Bomber Jacket (check QRs). Only exception to wings on your chest is your number 5 which requires mini-wings.
When I wish to wear short-sleeves and nylon trousers, I shall do so at BA or Virgin's employ and look a whole lot smarter to boot!
No it's a COST thing. Number 2s are cheap when compared to a flying coverall. Officers pay for replacements to their number 2s too.
If the intention was to look smart, we'd either have some better flying kit (too expensive) or better 2s (too expensive). Obviously Number 1s do the job but are impractical for daily use.
BTW those that are concerned about wings on number 2s should be aware that you CAN wear them on your blue Bomber Jacket (check QRs). Only exception to wings on your chest is your number 5 which requires mini-wings.
When I wish to wear short-sleeves and nylon trousers, I shall do so at BA or Virgin's employ and look a whole lot smarter to boot!
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So let's get a few things straight, I don't need a flying suit so everyone know I'm Aircrew, that’s why I have a brevet on my blues, one I earned through hard work and perseverance. If you ground types are so jealous, why not do as I did and get off your arses, do some hard work, pass selection and then you too can swan around getting lots of money.
As for not being paid flying pay when not flying, I think you will find this is well covered in the regulations, if the RAF post me to a non-flying, ground job (flying related or not job) then they must continue to pay me flying pay for 3 years and give me the option to return to flying after that. If I volunteer to do a ground job they do not have to pay me flying pay. If they, after the 3 years make me stay in a non-flying roll (flying related or not) they have to pay me flying pay. If at any time in my service they remove my flying pay without me volunteering I have the option to leave the service immediately (as you do if you are permanently downgraded). As you can see it would be quite expensive for the airforce to give aircrew a free immediate PVR option. (We are not as cheap to train as groundcrew).
As for only wearing flying suits when on flying related duties, that covers about 90% of our job including doing a tour in Ops!! Think I'll stick to my blues though.
PS 14greens when have you ever been in work past 2pm when not flying?
As for not being paid flying pay when not flying, I think you will find this is well covered in the regulations, if the RAF post me to a non-flying, ground job (flying related or not job) then they must continue to pay me flying pay for 3 years and give me the option to return to flying after that. If I volunteer to do a ground job they do not have to pay me flying pay. If they, after the 3 years make me stay in a non-flying roll (flying related or not) they have to pay me flying pay. If at any time in my service they remove my flying pay without me volunteering I have the option to leave the service immediately (as you do if you are permanently downgraded). As you can see it would be quite expensive for the airforce to give aircrew a free immediate PVR option. (We are not as cheap to train as groundcrew).
As for only wearing flying suits when on flying related duties, that covers about 90% of our job including doing a tour in Ops!! Think I'll stick to my blues though.
PS 14greens when have you ever been in work past 2pm when not flying?
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One really has to look at the current state of the RAF with it's serious shortages of manpower, equipment and morale and question the mental stability of those at the top who dream up these kind of things.
How can we possibly be employing an airship in these particularly difficult and trying times, who has nothing better to do with his life or time other than to sit down and come up with this unwarranted crap? If it wasn't so serious, it would be funny, but the fact is that someone close to the very top (maybe even right at the top) has been able to find the time and energy to come up with this, instead of trying to repair the real problems that are facing the RAF. I despair frankly.
And why oh why is Torpey allowing it? Is the guy completely blind to what is going on? Is he that far detached from the real world that he can't see that this is stupid? (enough said there; my views on Torpey are well known on this forum. Suffice to say that the man is a spent fool who should go now (IMHO of course!))
God help you all. With idiots of this calibre in charge, you must feel really safe and secure.
The Winco
How can we possibly be employing an airship in these particularly difficult and trying times, who has nothing better to do with his life or time other than to sit down and come up with this unwarranted crap? If it wasn't so serious, it would be funny, but the fact is that someone close to the very top (maybe even right at the top) has been able to find the time and energy to come up with this, instead of trying to repair the real problems that are facing the RAF. I despair frankly.
And why oh why is Torpey allowing it? Is the guy completely blind to what is going on? Is he that far detached from the real world that he can't see that this is stupid? (enough said there; my views on Torpey are well known on this forum. Suffice to say that the man is a spent fool who should go now (IMHO of course!))
God help you all. With idiots of this calibre in charge, you must feel really safe and secure.
The Winco
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I take it that the RAF short-sleeved blue shirt procurement problem has been resolved then. The last time I checked SROs we were only able to exchange them in exceptional circumstances.
Sounds like fantastic timing!
Sounds like fantastic timing!
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Surely it's a no-brainer. If you are aircrew on a flying sqn then wear a flying suit. Helps to maintain Sqn identity/pride in ones role. No issue at all. All ground-dwellers into CS95. More comfortable, less upkeep (ironing), uniformity, as there are too many options in 'blues'. And the genius of my fiendishly simple plan is that it's much cheaper all round. We maintain RAF corporate identity using 'barcodes', and headdress with RAF cap badges. Non commissioned can wear green rank slides with RAF embroidered underneath.
Easy!
Easy!
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Hope they increase my paltry uniform tax allowance to compensate for the wear & tear of my No 2 dress then.
Having just replaced No 1 and No 5 in the past 18 months I don't have much change from £2000!!! (Which is around 4 years uniform tax allowance)
On a personal note I think that our No 2 dress is awful - it is cheap and nasty. Too much ironing leaves you with shiny shirts, trousers and jumpers. The short sleeve shirt is rarer than an operationally focused 2*.
Aircrew in flying post wear smart flying suits - end of story. Looks better than badly pressed No 2's which only survive the first encounter with any form of chair/desk combo.
Lets have some uniformity - UK MAMS (CS95), RAF Regt (CS95), RAF Police (CS95), TCW (CS95), TSW (CS95), TMW (CS95), Stn Guard Forces (CS95). Admin blunties (Blues - unless feeling left out
), ATC (Blues), Eng Wing (Blues then coveralls when working).
It looks to me that the vast majority of workers in the RAF wear CS95. Engineers need coveralls for working on aircraft. Only the blunties seem to wear No 2 on a day-to-day basis - the minority perhaps?
RAF should wear smart CS95 with RAF and unit insignia.
Aircrew wear flying suits when flying - CS95 when not.
No5s and No1s remain for ceremonial and social functions.
Bin No 2 HD altogether and save money! (It still looks sh
t!)
Having just replaced No 1 and No 5 in the past 18 months I don't have much change from £2000!!! (Which is around 4 years uniform tax allowance)
On a personal note I think that our No 2 dress is awful - it is cheap and nasty. Too much ironing leaves you with shiny shirts, trousers and jumpers. The short sleeve shirt is rarer than an operationally focused 2*.
Aircrew in flying post wear smart flying suits - end of story. Looks better than badly pressed No 2's which only survive the first encounter with any form of chair/desk combo.
Lets have some uniformity - UK MAMS (CS95), RAF Regt (CS95), RAF Police (CS95), TCW (CS95), TSW (CS95), TMW (CS95), Stn Guard Forces (CS95). Admin blunties (Blues - unless feeling left out
), ATC (Blues), Eng Wing (Blues then coveralls when working).It looks to me that the vast majority of workers in the RAF wear CS95. Engineers need coveralls for working on aircraft. Only the blunties seem to wear No 2 on a day-to-day basis - the minority perhaps?
RAF should wear smart CS95 with RAF and unit insignia.
Aircrew wear flying suits when flying - CS95 when not.
No5s and No1s remain for ceremonial and social functions.
Bin No 2 HD altogether and save money! (It still looks sh
t!)
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The national shortage of wedgewood blue uniform shirts in stores at the moment could prove interesting if this is enforced.
(unless of course they are being held in reserve in case somebody might need them someday
)
(unless of course they are being held in reserve in case somebody might need them someday
)
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We were having this discussion in 1981 when I joined the RAF. Back then, there was a plethora of aircrew in scruffy flying suits covered with more badges (TLP etc) than the average boy scout. Somewhere along the line they standardised the badges to be worn.
Personally, I can't see why you chaps are getting so wound up. If you're not going to be flying, why not wear the uniform (as opposed to the protective clothing) that you have been given/have tax relief on? As someone has said, there are far bigger things for both the AFB and aircrew to get animated about.
PS. I'm not admin guru!!
Personally, I can't see why you chaps are getting so wound up. If you're not going to be flying, why not wear the uniform (as opposed to the protective clothing) that you have been given/have tax relief on? As someone has said, there are far bigger things for both the AFB and aircrew to get animated about.
PS. I'm not admin guru!!
Perhaps it's time to re-introduce the excellent pre-1973/4 pattern blue barathea battledress? It was worn with epaulette rank badges, flying badge and medal ribbons; two versions were in use, the 'normal pattern' and an 'aircrew pattern', which could be worn underneath a coverall. It had sewn-down epaulettes, zip pockets instead of patch pockets and also a zipped aperture for an AVS hose. Very 'cool', it was!
Whereas the dreadful railway porter's jacket introduced in 1973/4 was simply appalling. At the same time the first of the awful 'woolly pullies' also appeared, to be replaced by various other abortions over the years - the V-necked ones made the wearer look like some prep school paedophile when worn with a tie!
Everyone from the police to the girl guides looks smarter in uniform than RAF personnel in their scruffy RAC patrolman's uniform. No wonder aircrew prefer to wear No 14 dress - or whatever it's called now - even if it doesn't include all the medal ribbons earned whilst the REMFs anguished over pointless clothing rules.
Whereas the dreadful railway porter's jacket introduced in 1973/4 was simply appalling. At the same time the first of the awful 'woolly pullies' also appeared, to be replaced by various other abortions over the years - the V-necked ones made the wearer look like some prep school paedophile when worn with a tie!
Everyone from the police to the girl guides looks smarter in uniform than RAF personnel in their scruffy RAC patrolman's uniform. No wonder aircrew prefer to wear No 14 dress - or whatever it's called now - even if it doesn't include all the medal ribbons earned whilst the REMFs anguished over pointless clothing rules.
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When I wish to wear short-sleeves and nylon trousers, I shall do so at BA or Virgin's employ and look a whole lot smarter to boot!
Last edited by brit bus driver; 2nd Oct 2008 at 10:50. Reason: We don't wear woollen shirts - just wanted to make that clear!
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I too have read the entire IBN and Mr C Hinecap and TheInquisitor are correct, BUT, and its a big but, what if your station commander's interpretation differs from yours....? For all the stress put on the quality of written comms throughout officer development, it is so disappointing to see so many senior guys misunderstand the essence of the message so badly. As a frontline operator I consider everything I do, secondary duties aside, as flying-related. If it weren't then i wouldn't be in receipt of flying pay surely. And moreover, I wouldn't be here!
Like someone said earlier, the loonies have taken over the asylum. And they think this is important. That is whats most laughable....Amidst Catara, BOCS, JPA, retention issues, ageing decrepit kit, and crumbling station infrastructure, surely its time to kick up a stink about uniform. I ask you, what the f*** is going on...
As a General Sir Anthony Cecil Hogmanay Melchett once said : " If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through."
Never a truer word spoken it seems...
Like someone said earlier, the loonies have taken over the asylum. And they think this is important. That is whats most laughable....Amidst Catara, BOCS, JPA, retention issues, ageing decrepit kit, and crumbling station infrastructure, surely its time to kick up a stink about uniform. I ask you, what the f*** is going on...
As a General Sir Anthony Cecil Hogmanay Melchett once said : " If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through."
Never a truer word spoken it seems...
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Oh this is so funny - have I missed something or is there a punch line?
Seems such a trivial and pointless thing to get wound up about - yet they do again!!!
Maybe Tim Collins did the draft????, it may be part of his master plan to divide and conquer??
Seems such a trivial and pointless thing to get wound up about - yet they do again!!!
Maybe Tim Collins did the draft????, it may be part of his master plan to divide and conquer??
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all 3 Services are making major changes to the direction and advice on wearing uniform both in public and in routine situations.
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The tax relief is intended for the maintenance and upkeep of your uniform. If you have receipted amounts that are more than the allowance then you may claim the actual amount. This is a matter between you and your tax man.
To give an example, Mrs W2 was allowed a fixed relief of £18 pa or about £4 cash. Her actual expenditure for laundering her uniform every day was about £4 per week. The taxman did not quibble when we claimed £210 per year and did not even ask for justification.
I mentioned receipted amounts as it is a well known fact that officers change their uniform only when forced to do so - look at the mention of forage caps.