Apache

[pacman1234]

[FONT='Calibri','sans-serif']Just finished reading Apache ,truly a very enjoyable read .I have one question Could the UK Apache force be supplemented with Lynx’s armed with TOW I understand that the AAC not longer fly TOW armed Lynx’s but how much and how long would it take to reinstall the kit[/font]

[Low Ball]

Armed Lynx Again

Pacman1234,

I note that this is your first post, could it be that you haven't kept up to speed with all the posts on Lynx here and in the aviation press.

Some problems to consider:-

Probably no missiles available as shelf life expired
Sights and booms removed and probably disposed of
Spares will have had a similar fate
3rd and 4th line repair facilities closed contracts non existant
Test equipment disposed of
No money
No requirement
Lynx out of puff in hot and High
Nobody (aircrew/technicians/ammo techs) trained or well out of practice

There is probably a few more but that should tell you it's a non starter.
However read the books on this thread. Note weapon of choice is the 30mm AWS in Afg. Now fitting cannon on Lynx might be a better option if it wouldn't shake the old girl to bits. Westlands trialled a 20mm cannon in pod on Lynx many years ago and that would require a fairly rudimentary sighting system. Suppliment this with waist mounted cannon for off axis work and you may have a useful toy. You may also need more powerful engines but you will need a requirement.

All in all I wouldn't hold my breath in the present climate.

LB

[pacman1234]

Thanks LB

Thanks for that. I guessed it would be a non starter.Is the 30mm I little bit of over kill for a single bad guy. Seen some good film of a mini gatling gun on U Tube fitted to a Huey.Finding Apache Dawn a lot less enjoyable than Apache

[Outgoing]

Knowing Ed Macy and Baz Hunter extremely well; it is interesting that their books are written as you would expect them to tell it. (Alright, Baz did not actually write Apache Dawn but might as well have.)

There is some fallout from them and repercussions to be decided. 'Ed' has had a tough time personally and if this is a way for him to set up his retirement then fair play to him but there are many that feel he has betrayed them a la McNab/Ryan... Always been a brave bloke though and famed for his (over?-) enthusiasm in every aspect of his life!

[Gainesy]

Repercussions? I thought he had left the AAC?

Damn good book by the way. (Apache, that is, not read t'other one).

[Rakshasa]

Really? The only people who come out looking less than good in it are the Marine Major and the then 656 (or regiment?) OC and even then the criticism is pretty mild.

Would've figured both the booties and the corps would be pretty happy with it.

[PICKS135]

Just finished Apache, and have to agree with the comments from Rakshasa.

Non of the people mentioned in Apache, both Air and Ground get shafted by the author. The only one to get a bad write up is the [then] CO.

Cant see how there is bad feeling ala McNab / Ryan.





edited for mongness

re-edited after clarification by frontseater


bloody awkward 'Brown Jobs'

[Front Seater]

Guys,

Please be very careful with your use of the English language and military abbreviations - in the world of us brown jobs the OC is Officer Commanding for a Sqn and the CO is Commanding Officer of the Regiment. 2 different positions and for the purpose of this book and this thread 2 different people.

I know that Rak you attempt to delineate, but it is quite important as the OC of the Sqn was/is a top bloke, and rarely for us Teenie Weenies one of the most experienced AH drivers and leaders that we have. The CO on the other hand was undoubtedly playing the political game (with a certain amount of London/JHC/DAAvn career watching).

However, without defending the CO too much he said what he felt at the time - now we all know that those dudes that did the whole Jugroom Fort mission were incredibly brave - incredibly brave - and I really hope that come the day of the race that my inner mechanisms work that way.

But - and here is the point - sometimes those dislocated from the action seen the full potential of what could have happened at Jugroom Fort if fate (and lets be honest there was a lot of 'luck' in theat mission (both good and bad). I think we all know that those very brave actions could have been a strategic/political disaster (as per Mogadishu with the Blackhawk crew body being dragged through the streets).

All I am saying is be careful about terminology as some people would be deeply upset in being 'confused' of the position and role they played and secondly maybe, just maybe, step back from the coal face and try and get a glimpse of what other people may be thinking and ultimately responsible for.

From my very personal perspective - and as identified by many previous posters, the only people to 'blame' in any of this is the Politicians, Treasury and the 'top brass'. As per the news yesterday (with lessons being re-learnt from the old Sea King IRT at Sipovo/Balkans) to save a life there needs to be a dedicated capability that can actually do the IRT/MRT whatever you want to call it job. That means doing the job in all conditions with the correct training and levels of experience.

I think just post Jugroom Fort QHI 656 posted that there should be an HH-60 CSAR/Immediate Combat Recovery/JPR capability, but even I know that it will take a few more Coroners and Media Headlines to shame the HM Govt into procuring such a bespoke capability - although I must be honest that as someone that always knew that that Sea King boys would always make it through in Bosnia, it is good seeing them out here with their winch heaven forbid should I/we require them.

[Rakshasa]

Front Seater, thanks for clearing that up. I have nothing but respect and admiration for "Trigger", a boss I'd be proud to serve under.

I understand all too well the position the OC found himself in, as did 'Ed' it seemed.

I'll say this though, when blokes are having to hang off the side of an Apache or wait over three hours in a minefield for a spam Dustoff. We have a serious capability gap and only a cretin would attempt to deny it.

The Wokka crews/MRT are abolutely first rate but there clearly are times when it's the wrong tool for the job.

[Front Seater]

Rak,

Couldn't agree more and although I am a funding/EP realist I do wonder what price does a dedicated life saving rescue capability cost - both financially, grand strategically and politically.

How much more Sky News, BBC and CNN coverage do the politicians need before they realise that peoples lives are being lost. There are only so many times that the Politicians and 3* (who have formally taken this 'on risk') can direct the 2* 'fall guy' to be 'the face' for their risk taking.

Jugroom Fort, Kajaki Dam and quite a few of other incidents not reported regulaly provide the evidence that a dedicated CSAR (-) capability is required. Sadly, in my personal opinion it is going to take a Mogadishu equivalent (i.e. bodies being dragged through streets) for the public and treasury to finally put their hands in their pocket (or take a bow and pull out of the conflict admitting 'tactical success but strategic defeat).

Best solution from this end of the telescope:

1. Secure funding as soon as possible.
2. Co-ordinate with the replacement of another capability (Puma/Sea King).
3. Dedicate a UK rotary wing force to the CSAR (-)/IRT/MRT role.

What I am not too sure about is Merlin in this role - is it really suited, what is its downwash like, is it better suited to providing the much needed pure SH lift. The knackered old Sea King cannot lift much, but appears to be a very stable platform and has the corporate knowledge left over from Bosnia.

So, for the here and now until the Parliament and the British people eventually realise what the exact scale of the 'risk' that is being underwritten at the top should the recently expanded Merlin fleet be dedicated (and therefore specially trained) in this role, or is the Sea King more capable and therefore should they be made the national CSAR/IRT/MRT asset.

Or do we actually stop faffing with the 'concepts' - accelerate the civilianisation of the SAR force, paint all of the yellow Sea Kings green/brown and start the training of the SAR Force in the CSAR (-) role.

I am not fussed who does it - but how much longer can we 'double earmark' and multi task assets in this very important (life saving role)?

There are lots of options (and yes they are not 'cost neutral') but the worst Course Of Action to is to do nothing and hope that the per centage chance of the risk happening again will not occur.

[olster]

Apache is a fantastic read;the rescue is jaw-dropping in its audacity as is the courage of all participants.There is one group that comes out with zero credibility and that is the politicians of the era.They consistently disappoint,both the military and the electorate.Great book,though.

[FB11]

Purely for my interest, do any of the royalties go to charity?

Particularly military ones that would help recognise/help the 1000's of other military servicemen and women who serve, because they signed up to do so, but don't write a book.

I hope so.

[Gainesy]

Can't check on Apache, I've lent it out, but all author's proceeds from "Joint Force Harrier" by Cdr Ade Orchard RN, go to the charity Combat Stress and RN Historic Flight.

[airborne_artist]

all author's proceeds from "Joint Force Harrier" by Cdr Ade Orchard RN

Gainsey - see if you can guess who FB11 is, then? Here is a clue:

[Gainesy]

Really? (Sound of loose change hitting floor).

Another v. good read by the way.

Hmm, that thing would go faster if the prop was turning