Inflight Rationing
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OK dallas, I will have to spell this out using really small words for you... your experiences of flitting off to the states on jaunts of fancy spending a fortune are long gone. As an ascot operator, I have not had a westbound route in three years. I have operated to 5 airfields which were not in the AOR in the past 4. It very much sounds like you havent been around the pointy end for some while now.
You haven't explained how crew members, often tasked at short notice for compassionate and medevac taskings, sometimes authed to 24 hour augmented crew duty ops, are supposed to prepare a safe foodstuff to take with them for the flight. Callout at 2 AM, where are they supposed to by their food from, and safely? You cant. I cant guarantee the sandwiches Mrs Vin Rouge prepared at home are safe to consume, once they have spent an age in the heat on the way to work and then refrigirated, and neither can you. Inflight, on long-duration trips IS a cost of the mission! As I have said above, it is necessary to have correctly prepared and refrigerated food available to the crew, unless you want your pilots going down with Delhi belly half way home from Nairobi. Where do you suggest we get our inflight from there? Or how about Kabul? Baku? Although the HLRs are getting smaller, I would still prefer to eat this than some crap from Cris Kebabs in akrotiri. Get real, are you really expecting three man flightdecks to prepare a full meal for themselves during a hectic crew duty day? Dont you think they are busy doing other stuff, like operating? How about the guys in theatre that are operating upwards of 8 sectors per day, typically engines-running half of it? How are they supposed to eat unless inflight is provided?
You mention the supermarket sweep. There are numerous regs which do not allow this to take place unless inflight cannot be provided at the airport. Have you seen the price of crew inflight at airports? I am guessing you havent. It often costs as I have said before, upswards of $200 per crew member, and I aint talking about lobster thermador. I am talking about a few kebab skewers and a chicken curry. Its often much cheaper to grab what you can at the supermarket, even in your limited experience that this is not the case. I bet what they bought in supermarket, whilst that could be considered excessive by yourself (ever heard of a crew duty extention or airbourne retask?) would have still cost less than a single lay-up from a big international.
I suggest we have enough on our minds, fatigue is one of the biggest enemies we face at the mo, degrading performance further often at the most critical stage, at the far end of extended crew duty days. I cant believe we are even having this argument. And as I have said before, unless it was a medivac/comp A, I have no qualms of refusing to fly if im not in a fit state to do so. feeling hungry is well covered by 550, I plan to stick to the regs like glue if they force this in.
You haven't explained how crew members, often tasked at short notice for compassionate and medevac taskings, sometimes authed to 24 hour augmented crew duty ops, are supposed to prepare a safe foodstuff to take with them for the flight. Callout at 2 AM, where are they supposed to by their food from, and safely? You cant. I cant guarantee the sandwiches Mrs Vin Rouge prepared at home are safe to consume, once they have spent an age in the heat on the way to work and then refrigirated, and neither can you. Inflight, on long-duration trips IS a cost of the mission! As I have said above, it is necessary to have correctly prepared and refrigerated food available to the crew, unless you want your pilots going down with Delhi belly half way home from Nairobi. Where do you suggest we get our inflight from there? Or how about Kabul? Baku? Although the HLRs are getting smaller, I would still prefer to eat this than some crap from Cris Kebabs in akrotiri. Get real, are you really expecting three man flightdecks to prepare a full meal for themselves during a hectic crew duty day? Dont you think they are busy doing other stuff, like operating? How about the guys in theatre that are operating upwards of 8 sectors per day, typically engines-running half of it? How are they supposed to eat unless inflight is provided?
You mention the supermarket sweep. There are numerous regs which do not allow this to take place unless inflight cannot be provided at the airport. Have you seen the price of crew inflight at airports? I am guessing you havent. It often costs as I have said before, upswards of $200 per crew member, and I aint talking about lobster thermador. I am talking about a few kebab skewers and a chicken curry. Its often much cheaper to grab what you can at the supermarket, even in your limited experience that this is not the case. I bet what they bought in supermarket, whilst that could be considered excessive by yourself (ever heard of a crew duty extention or airbourne retask?) would have still cost less than a single lay-up from a big international.
I suggest we have enough on our minds, fatigue is one of the biggest enemies we face at the mo, degrading performance further often at the most critical stage, at the far end of extended crew duty days. I cant believe we are even having this argument. And as I have said before, unless it was a medivac/comp A, I have no qualms of refusing to fly if im not in a fit state to do so. feeling hungry is well covered by 550, I plan to stick to the regs like glue if they force this in.
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The Army marches on its stomach, so what is the problem with the aircrew types having rations ?
The whole in-flt ration was looked at carefullly in 2004 (?) and was then IMHO reduced to the minimum. Whatever cretin thought this one up really needs to be aware of just how difficult uploading rations can be at stupid o'clock in the middle of nowhere.
As for rations from WalMart, bring it on. I used to love sweeping for rations there; you get what you want and at a fraction of the price of airport catering, thus saving a few quid.
This is a really bad idea and should the excuse be that this is what the spams do, then somebody really needs to be put straight. I would love to be there the next time a 3/4 * goes for a famil ride with no prospect of a meal
C130JB
The whole in-flt ration was looked at carefullly in 2004 (?) and was then IMHO reduced to the minimum. Whatever cretin thought this one up really needs to be aware of just how difficult uploading rations can be at stupid o'clock in the middle of nowhere.
As for rations from WalMart, bring it on. I used to love sweeping for rations there; you get what you want and at a fraction of the price of airport catering, thus saving a few quid.
This is a really bad idea and should the excuse be that this is what the spams do, then somebody really needs to be put straight. I would love to be there the next time a 3/4 * goes for a famil ride with no prospect of a meal
C130JB
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Foghorn, you really need to get your blunt @rse out east a lot more!!!!
Crews are regularly doing 20+ hours in a crew duty period, albeit augmented. Many crews are being pinged for short notice CCAST casevac. In those cases, the crews crack on with it, no whinging, as it could be the difference between someone having their limbs saved or not, or possibly a whole lot worse for the casualty!!
Your comments are somewhat unreasonable!
Crews are regularly doing 20+ hours in a crew duty period, albeit augmented. Many crews are being pinged for short notice CCAST casevac. In those cases, the crews crack on with it, no whinging, as it could be the difference between someone having their limbs saved or not, or possibly a whole lot worse for the casualty!!
Your comments are somewhat unreasonable!
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VinRouge
You've done it again! Deliberately avoided the point I keep trying to make, in favour of extreme tales of derring do. So let me make what I'm saying clear: load the fcuking plane full of ready meals and in between take-off and landing, do nothing but eat.
Then pay a nominal amount for doing so.
You've done it again! Deliberately avoided the point I keep trying to make, in favour of extreme tales of derring do. So let me make what I'm saying clear: load the fcuking plane full of ready meals and in between take-off and landing, do nothing but eat.
Then pay a nominal amount for doing so.
How about the fact that I've already paid for my food once?
Its sitting there in my fridge rotting because I've just been given another short notice call out - and before you quip, the last two times it happened I was away for 1wk and 5wks respectively.
Its sitting there in my fridge rotting because I've just been given another short notice call out - and before you quip, the last two times it happened I was away for 1wk and 5wks respectively.
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Dallas, I think you will find I pay my full mess subscription, but if I am warned away for less than three days, I still get the pleasure of paying for the food. So are you suggesting I pay twice? 
Before you go on about daring do, I think you will find out that what I describe is the modus operandi for most ascot crews these days, who are busting their guts (pardon the pun) to get the job done. Its not all states routes with the odd dotted sandy det thrown in any more. This will be seen by all at the receiving end as another insult to the work they put in...
And in answer to what you have said before, I dont pay for the fuel, so why I pay for something that is just as necessary for flight, ie fuel for the crew? Does anyone else pay for food in theatre? All you would do is punish the hardest working crews whilst those that arent deploying through illness or on holiday wouldnt have any additional costs! Hardly inspiring or realistic is it, nor an incentive to work. Having to pay to go to work!
Before you go on about daring do, I think you will find out that what I describe is the modus operandi for most ascot crews these days, who are busting their guts (pardon the pun) to get the job done. Its not all states routes with the odd dotted sandy det thrown in any more. This will be seen by all at the receiving end as another insult to the work they put in...
And in answer to what you have said before, I dont pay for the fuel, so why I pay for something that is just as necessary for flight, ie fuel for the crew? Does anyone else pay for food in theatre? All you would do is punish the hardest working crews whilst those that arent deploying through illness or on holiday wouldnt have any additional costs! Hardly inspiring or realistic is it, nor an incentive to work. Having to pay to go to work!
Last edited by VinRouge; 24th Aug 2008 at 19:45.
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How about we do it EU-style? 4 x F104s lob in to refuel and lunch, parked on the orp. Chatting to the lead [Sqn Cdr, nice chap] who was leaning against the fuselage, whilst the refueller hose had a fine spray of HM best Avtur from the connection. Trouble is, said leader was smoking a Galloise at the time....
His No 2 was having lunch - some sort of stuffed roll and half bottle of wine.
40 mins later, oft they popped to tear around the LL before RTB...
His No 2 was having lunch - some sort of stuffed roll and half bottle of wine.
40 mins later, oft they popped to tear around the LL before RTB...
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Before everybody gets too hot under the collar, is this really going to happen?? i havent seen it written down anywhere yet, and until then i would suggest that all of this is pure speculation, (which is what this forum is for).
If it is indeed true or being given some thought, i think the practicalities of this need to be thought through long and hard. It is true that our cousins from across the pond have paid for their rations, however, every usaf base is set up for this and offer a variety of meals/snacks through there in flight system for them to choose from. Now can you imagine this being the case at our bases where the turnover is far less.
Also if you do get a meal, that you pay for, who is going to cook it? the alm/steward?? What if they for whatever reason burn that particular meal, are they going to have to pay you back for the cost of that meal?? there wont be anything spare as all of it is individually paid for. Are the pax going to pay for their meals, they are on duty just as the flight deck crew are, who will collect the money for this meal??
Problems would raise there heads significantly, and lots of thinking needs to be done
If it is indeed true or being given some thought, i think the practicalities of this need to be thought through long and hard. It is true that our cousins from across the pond have paid for their rations, however, every usaf base is set up for this and offer a variety of meals/snacks through there in flight system for them to choose from. Now can you imagine this being the case at our bases where the turnover is far less.
Also if you do get a meal, that you pay for, who is going to cook it? the alm/steward?? What if they for whatever reason burn that particular meal, are they going to have to pay you back for the cost of that meal?? there wont be anything spare as all of it is individually paid for. Are the pax going to pay for their meals, they are on duty just as the flight deck crew are, who will collect the money for this meal??
Problems would raise there heads significantly, and lots of thinking needs to be done
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Hardly inspiring or realistic is it, nor an incentive to work. Having to pay to go to work!
I actually think these plans are extremely flawed and there are lots of reasons to keep things the way they are. What inspired me to lock horns with you was your reflex '...it won't be coming out of my pocket', only later shored up with extreme examples of a CDD.
I also like the way you try and undermine my position by accusing me of being a blunty, because operators don't do accountability, do they? I'm not going to hint at what I do, as that defeats the point of this anonymous forum, but - and I know you might struggle to understand this - myself and many others 'pay to go to work' every day, while battling to ensure your task runs to plan. Some days I know you're working very hard, just as I am, but protecting your pocket shouldn't be the primary reason not to review inflight procedures - your original reply made it clear to me that it was yours.
Feel free to come back with something that misses the point again, if you wish. As of now I'm going to stop replying as we're not getting anywhere, except to finish by suggesting you avoid, if questioned, mentioning your pocket at the top of your reasons to rule out change.
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Train drivers being rationed by the govt? Last time I travelled by train I don't think the driver was augmenting to bring a half dead youngster back from Paddington to Waverley Street whilst running a full DAS checklist, popping off a few flares to distract the SA-7 launch from Birmingham New Street and then ' landing ' his train, somewhat knackered in a parking slot marked ' motorcycles only ' .
There really are some fcukwits on here !!!!
There really are some fcukwits on here !!!!
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Sorry Dallas, I wasnt accusing you of being a blunty. I am sure you are far from the blunt end. I suppose we will have to agree to disagree on this one! 
Inter Arma Enim Silentius Lex Legis
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Oh do me a favour! What arrogance to assume that what you do is far more important than someone in the rail industry, some of you need to wake up and smell the coffee of reality.
Think about what would happen if not a single train ran for seven days and then compare that to what would happen if all our troops etc remained in barracks for seven days. Tell me which one would do the more damage to Team GB?
Firstly Train Drivers are Gods within their own empires just like aircraft captains. They have the right to say no in all operational matters concerning safety. But unlike said captains they frequently use it where necessary that’s why safety figures are on the increase on the railways.
Secondly the Drivers elite will not allow a gradual erosion of their safety unlike your masters are doing with you. But come on ladies and gents what do you expect? Those of you still serving know exactly what you are up against and be assured things are only going to get worse. Team GB has to find the funds to pay for Gordy’s 2012 medals from somewhere. The Treasury balancing figures have only one way to go just like house prices!
This catering erosion has been going on for years now, I remember a very heated Sgt’s mess emergency general meeting way back when the SGF had its rationing withdrawn. We voted to provided a monthly set sum to provide tea & coffee for them.
Since then I had been on many E3D Ops and Ex’s where the main mission statement was to cut as much off the expenses bill at the cost of quality training. I still can’t face eating Subway sarnies to this day! So it isn’t really a new concept is it? Just an extension off all that has gone before.
I wish you luck, there are just as many bean counters out here trying to cut costs as well. It’s just that blind obedience Dalek style has no concept where my grass grows. Regards to all that know me keep safe people.
TG
Think about what would happen if not a single train ran for seven days and then compare that to what would happen if all our troops etc remained in barracks for seven days. Tell me which one would do the more damage to Team GB?
Firstly Train Drivers are Gods within their own empires just like aircraft captains. They have the right to say no in all operational matters concerning safety. But unlike said captains they frequently use it where necessary that’s why safety figures are on the increase on the railways.
Secondly the Drivers elite will not allow a gradual erosion of their safety unlike your masters are doing with you. But come on ladies and gents what do you expect? Those of you still serving know exactly what you are up against and be assured things are only going to get worse. Team GB has to find the funds to pay for Gordy’s 2012 medals from somewhere. The Treasury balancing figures have only one way to go just like house prices!
This catering erosion has been going on for years now, I remember a very heated Sgt’s mess emergency general meeting way back when the SGF had its rationing withdrawn. We voted to provided a monthly set sum to provide tea & coffee for them.
Since then I had been on many E3D Ops and Ex’s where the main mission statement was to cut as much off the expenses bill at the cost of quality training. I still can’t face eating Subway sarnies to this day! So it isn’t really a new concept is it? Just an extension off all that has gone before.
I wish you luck, there are just as many bean counters out here trying to cut costs as well. It’s just that blind obedience Dalek style has no concept where my grass grows. Regards to all that know me keep safe people.
TG
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Oh so the train driver will get the call to go to Paddington not having the required pre route rest to drive for 24 hours whilst trying to avoid those who ARE DELIBERATELY trying to stop him in order to get a 19 year old on a life support machine back to Selly Oak ? We can feel precious, proud and a little arrogant about what we do otherwise we would all be doing it and be risking our lives - and I don't see too many queues outside the careers office these days !!!!!
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I agree it is bizarre - but who introduces train drivers in a forum about in-flight? NOT ME. And who says that we think we are better than others - NOT ME. The sentiment ( lost on Gorilla/Baboon ) is that in-flight is as much about flight safety for those who require a stimulus to stay alert on operational tasks as it is about just eating and getting fat !!!
For the record I don't consider my job any better or worse than anyone elses but I sure as hell know it is a lot more dangerous than a lot of others and so commensurate with a higher level of alertness required, it is absolutely f***in bizarre to say that if we are entitled to in flight then so should a train driver.
By the way after all this I am never getting on another train again.
CHOO F***IN CHOO !!!
Ivor the engine pulled into the station - poor old Jones the steam had been shot up pretty bad by Tal Y Ban.....but it's ok.....he has a D-shaped to see him through............
For the record I don't consider my job any better or worse than anyone elses but I sure as hell know it is a lot more dangerous than a lot of others and so commensurate with a higher level of alertness required, it is absolutely f***in bizarre to say that if we are entitled to in flight then so should a train driver.
By the way after all this I am never getting on another train again.
CHOO F***IN CHOO !!!
Ivor the engine pulled into the station - poor old Jones the steam had been shot up pretty bad by Tal Y Ban.....but it's ok.....he has a D-shaped to see him through............
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Foghorn
2 Gp are just getting airbourne for another 24Hr shift.
The crew were gathered together at very short notice and, thankfully, didn't have to worry about buying their rations on the way in!
The 10 wounded aeromed patients won't have to bring their own rations either. We've got that covered.
Man, you press my buttons
Could you just remind me of the last time 2 Gp aircrew 'pulled a 24hr shift'?
The crew were gathered together at very short notice and, thankfully, didn't have to worry about buying their rations on the way in!
The 10 wounded aeromed patients won't have to bring their own rations either. We've got that covered.
Man, you press my buttons
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From the self-loading freight perspective - does this mean we are liable to lose our pink meat / white meat butties?
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Last edited by Tricorn; 27th Aug 2008 at 14:12. Reason: word change
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Foghorn,
Every Herrick jet that leaves the UK has a stand-by crew ready to augment it, just in case it delays long enough out of Brize to put it over normal crew duty, so as you can see, 24 hr days are no longer just used for medivac but for normal tasking into and out of the middle east. Sometimes it would be better if we could work as a team in the RAF instead of letting jealousy get the better of us and trying as hard as we can to take away something others need, (be it rations, better accommodation or rates), just because we don't qualify for it. In the end cost cutting like this only adds to peoples overall dissatisfaction, especially when other things like overstretch, lack of quality time at home and decreasing allowances are also taken into account. Is it any wonder that people are leaving at their option point, is it any wonder that most people believe it just isn't worth it anymore, is it any wonder we are suffering from a lack of experience. The people at the top need to take notice of what these measures are doing to moral, start standing up for, and looking after, their troops. After all is that not one of the reasons they are there in the first place.
Every Herrick jet that leaves the UK has a stand-by crew ready to augment it, just in case it delays long enough out of Brize to put it over normal crew duty, so as you can see, 24 hr days are no longer just used for medivac but for normal tasking into and out of the middle east. Sometimes it would be better if we could work as a team in the RAF instead of letting jealousy get the better of us and trying as hard as we can to take away something others need, (be it rations, better accommodation or rates), just because we don't qualify for it. In the end cost cutting like this only adds to peoples overall dissatisfaction, especially when other things like overstretch, lack of quality time at home and decreasing allowances are also taken into account. Is it any wonder that people are leaving at their option point, is it any wonder that most people believe it just isn't worth it anymore, is it any wonder we are suffering from a lack of experience. The people at the top need to take notice of what these measures are doing to moral, start standing up for, and looking after, their troops. After all is that not one of the reasons they are there in the first place.