Inflight Rationing

[VinRouge]

Its not this one case individuality that forces chaps to leave, its the sum of not getting paid correctly, not getting paid at all, moves from rates, complete disregard of a flight safety system to scrimp on a few pennies by insisting crews count every penny on receipts when they should be monitoring fuel quantities/weather/flight systems etc... Dont Laugh, i saw it happen. Why bother when you can Pi$$ off to virgin/BA/Netjets, actually get paid your allowances instead of being treated like a criminal and expected to keep receipts for 2 years to prove your innocence. Thats before we get into the ice cream boys nicking ascot chaps for investigations that have no basis in fact whatsoever.

If they wanted to amend the in flight catering arrangements, how about adding flexibility instead? For example, if the co/alm could provide scran within their crew duty day to the crews desire, even if its Lobster Thermador from M&S, at a lower cost than the local arrangements (not hard having seen some of the bills incurred), then it should be up to the crews discretion to do so. Instead of FSI/FCIs which wont allow you to buy food at the BX on GPC for the crew...

I personally wont be going flying if I cannot say I have been propery sustained and I certainly wont be doing it out my own pocket... I would be interested to see how many cancelled flights due to flight safety it would take before the old system would be brought back...

Or, how about CAS/CDS sacks their personal chef to make up the difference? In other words, how about the brass start to take a hit on their allowances as well? Not a chance...

[dallas]

VinRouge,

Accepting the relation between blood sugar levels and energy/alertness, and the undoubted need for pilots to be well-nourished chaps, why do you think crews should be exempt from paying for food on duty, when everyone else now has to pay? Or put another way, if in-flight food continues to be provided for free, should this be in place of rates/actuals at destination?

I don't agree with the alleged proposals, just interested in why you think that paying for food is such a trauma?

[Arty Fufkin]

Presumably the same rules will apply to passengers as well as crew. In that case are we going to go down the Easyjet/ Ryan air route of charging passengers for their inflight meals? £2.25 for yor inflight meal (payable cash only) plus £1.25 for a cup of tea? I would be very interested to see how that is recieved by our troops.

[VinRouge]

just have to munch PAX inflight instead then...

[Arty Fufkin]

That stuff will kill you.

[R 21]

At a secret Oxon SH base the FSI and actuals is rearing its head again. OC Accounts is on a mission to see the problems in a muti sector leg through various countries. Surely all stations who use FSI (mainly RAF as I believe the Army don't do it) need to get together to put forward a sensible and well argued case.

[fingureof8]

There are a few points for contention on this rumoured new system.

1. If your pilot / pilots decide they want to rate save, to eat in a restuarant when you land, rather than spending the rate in a Wallmart to eat crap in the cockpit, how would you feel having them at the controls after a long day whilst landing in poor conditions?

2. Rates are not enough for individuals to go along to airport servicing and purshase food, as we all know that is mega money. So now your forced either to have a crew wip around or go down to the local market and buy the food your self.

This point raises a few concerns -
Crew duty / crew rest
Health and hygeine (food prep / storage etc)
Nutrition

3. Along with all the normal concerns of flying you now, potentially, have a jet full of aircrew worrying about reciepts for flying rations etc etc, when their minds ought to be else where.

4. I have never seen a BA / Virgin mate poping down to wallmart on the morning of thier flight to buy milk, tea and a meal for their trip???


I know the amount we got for flying rations was probably excessive, when rationing away from an airport caterer (but not when forced down that route), but you have to ask is this rumoured new method conducive with flight saftey?

Once again I am not trying to get peoples backs up, I am just interested in points of views. Ready to recieve FLAK

[dallas]

Originally Posted by R 21

OC Accounts is on a mission to see the problems in a muti sector leg through various countries.

Sounds like a tough mission, which I'm sure will result in a sympathetic, but ultimately non-policy changing result.

While I think the halcyon days of freebies for everyone are over (unless you're a MP), in our current economic climate, how about:

1. Flat rate of $30 a night anywhere in the world as a tax-free allowance. Some places you win, others you will lose. One form accounting for the cash, and in these days of international cash cards, you either spend the $ because its the default currency, or get the local dinero from an ATM.

2. As well as the user being in a neutral position with regards to income tax, the reduction in multiple layers of bureaucracy, writing policy, adminners taking 'fact-finding visits' to multiple countries to 'check allowance levels', countless levels of accounting at home base in multiple currencies, and the much despised auditors could all be at very least curtailed, if not disestablished. Voila - long term savings and valuable aircrew happy. Budgets can be planned and distraction to crews minimised.

It's gobsmacking that common sense has yet to prevail, especially at the cost of so many negatives for the way we currently operate.

Oh, and one more thing - if we do decide on a new policy, whatever it might be - freeze any attempt to change it for at least 10 years! All we seem to do is re-invent the allowances wheel and waste even more doing so, ending up back at a position we were in 5 years ago!

[Saintsman]

I remember a VC captain refusing to take an aircraft full of passengers because there was no lemon for his tea.

My has times changed...

[Arty Fufkin]

Dallas, on $30 a night you would lose everywhere. Bar the amount, the principle however is sound, lets call it .........Rates!

PS Foghorn, should guys have to fork out for their Rat Packs when on ops / ex's? A litttle flippant of me perhaps, but where should the line be drawn?

[glad rag]

Bring it on!

About time the elite were brought down to the level of the station guard force

[FJJP]

Sigh....

Remember the days of tins of soup and choccy bars accumulating in the flying clothing locker???

[Shackman]

Once again, another case of trying to reduce everything to the lowest common denominator ( Glad Rag's "About time the elite were brought down to the level of the station guard force ") instead of fighting to bring everyone UP to what should be available without question . When the GF lost the entitlement to rations it wasn't just the GF fighting the battle - many people higher up also tried to get the decision rescinded but the bean counters (and no doubt someone's promotion) won.

Equally it's not just 2 Gp - In flight rations can be a godsend, whether a honkers stew after 10 hours and still 'way up north' and another 6 hours to go, or a choccie bar and an orange juice half way through a 7 hour stint on SH. It keeps you alert - if nothing else trying not to drop food down the flying suit - and I know when I'm travelling cattle class I'd rather have a flight crew eating at regular intervals than one under aroused when it comes to landing or perhaps in a potentially hostile environment. Remember the crew started working well before take off time - not just when the wheels leave the ground. Equally, I'd rather have a guard force properly fed and watered concentrating on the job at hand rather than trying to make sense of a budget/JPA/etc. If the GF make an error it might just be a barrier on your car instead of going up - or it could be missing the intruder with evil intent. Aircrew make just one error and it could be a big hole.


Sorry - rant over.

'Distractions' anyone?

[sikeano]

I remember that
And we used to swap them

[dallas]

Once again, another case of trying to reduce everything to the lowest common denominator ( Glad Rag's "About time the elite were brought down to the level of the station guard force ") instead of fighting to bring everyone UP to what should be available without question . When the GF lost the entitlement to rations it wasn't just the GF fighting the battle - many people higher up also tried to get the decision rescinded but the bean counters (and no doubt someone's promotion) won.

Equally it's not just 2 Gp - In flight rations can be a godsend, whether a honkers stew after 10 hours and still 'way up north' and another 6 hours to go, or a choccie bar and an orange juice half way through a 7 hour stint on SH. It keeps you alert - if nothing else trying not to drop food down the flying suit - and I know when I'm travelling cattle class I'd rather have a flight crew eating at regular intervals than one under aroused when it comes to landing or perhaps in a potentially hostile environment. Remember the crew started working well before take off time - not just when the wheels leave the ground. Equally, I'd rather have a guard force properly fed and watered concentrating on the job at hand rather than trying to make sense of a budget/JPA/etc. If the GF make an error it might just be a barrier on your car instead of going up - or it could be missing the intruder with evil intent. Aircrew make just one error and it could be a big hole.


Sorry - rant over.

'Distractions' anyone?

No problem with the 'food is a good idea' bit, but still interested in VinRouge "certainly [not] doing it out my [his] pocket". Conceptually, why is there such horror at having to, God forbid, pay for something you're currently getting for free?

And using the 'aircrew need food to stay alert' argument, should the state should be providing train drivers with rations?

[VinRouge]

So why dont we get squaddies to pay for their own ammo then?

Heck, why not get the crews to pay for the fuel bearing in mind its got so expensive recently?

All these measures can be reduced to their lowest common denominator; that being pay cuts in disguise.

How many Underground/train workers pull 24 hour shifts? Since when have I been trained to prepare a meal which will be fit for human consumption, having brought it in from home, unrefrigerated in a warm car, then partially refrigerated it for up to 22 hours prior to consumption? Not as if I can 'pull over' for my lunch break at the nearest siding is it?

If you have ever paid for inflight in weird and wacky countries, which, I am guessing from your replies you haven't, you will realize the bill can sometimes be in hundreds of dollars per crew member. If you expect us to go down to the local deli and buy a slice of festering zebra for our inflight, don't be surprised when we start to get crews with serous illness halfway through a 10 hour flight.

Once again, cracking idea if you are an admin blunty looking for a promotion, crap idea if you are aircrew trying to get on with the job.

[Foghorn Leghorn]

VinRouge,

Could you just remind me of the last time 2 Gp aircrew 'pulled a 24hr shift'?

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Fog

Take your blunt arse to the middle east and have a look at the working hours the 2 Gp crews are putting in ................................ muppet

[dallas]

Originally Posted by VinRouge

So why dont we get squaddies to pay for their own ammo then?

Because this is equipment? Albeit C-class stores!

Heck, why not get the crews to pay for the fuel bearing in mind its got so expensive recently?

I don't think anyone is suggesting you pay a penny towards the cost of the mission, apart from perhaps making a nominal contribution to the cost of the food you eat, which everyone else in the world has to do, and which you're saving by not eating at home.

All these measures can be reduced to their lowest common denominator; that being pay cuts in disguise.

Which, frankly, reinforces my suspicion that you're not so much arsed about blood sugar levels, so much as losing the perk of not paying for any food.

How many Underground/train workers pull 24 hour shifts? Since when have I been trained to prepare a meal which will be fit for human consumption, having brought it in from home, unrefrigerated in a warm car, then partially refrigerated it for up to 22 hours prior to consumption? Not as if I can 'pull over' for my lunch break at the nearest siding is it?

I don't think anyone is talking about ripping out the food preparation equipment from the jets, and if 'pulling over' is a problem, how on earth do you manage now? To reiterate, I'm not at all querying your need for food on a long flight, I'm just struck by your defence which seems little to do with flight safety and more to do with defending your ancient rights to saving some cash!

If you have ever paid for inflight in weird and wacky countries, which, I am guessing from your replies you haven't, you will realize the bill can sometimes be in hundreds of dollars per crew member. If you expect us to go down to the local deli and buy a slice of festering zebra for our inflight, don't be surprised when we start to get crews with serous illness halfway through a 10 hour flight.

I've been on a few routes - one, coming back from the US, saw us self cater. The loadie spent an astronomical amount on supermarket food, most of which ended up being binned or went to the groundcrew on return (ie. 3.5 of the 5 slabs of pop). I've also seen crews comfortably over cater for relatively short legs because there's no incentive or interest in monitoring the cost. I'm not saying something like the XY bills that people paid against local fuel bills in Germany would work, but abject waste isn't the future.

Once again, cracking idea if you are an admin blunty looking for a promotion, crap idea if you are aircrew trying to get on with the job

Paying for the food you eat shoudln't interfere with landings and take-offs, and it's a tired defence in the face of any sort of belt-tightening or reform.

Just to reiterate, I very much resent the beancounters undermining the job, but 'we've always done it that way' doesn't mean you pick and choose which aspects of the 21st century you want to embrace. The RAF is broke - to some degree it's our own doing too - but 'freebies' are a thing of the past. So far your argument has had little to do with operating aircraft safely and more to do with you defending yourself from spending your wages on the food you eat.

[k1rb5]

Could you just remind me of the last time 2 Gp aircrew 'pulled a 24hr shift'?

Foghorn,

Part of me thinks your comment is not worthy of a response but the more generous side of my nature is thinking that you must just be a little naive.

The answer to your Q. is: Every time somebody needs to be brought back to UK for urgent medical treatment to a life threatening injury/illness and an augmented crew is authorized to facilitate it.

If you weren't so naive, you'd know that many people owe their lives to 2 Gp crews doing this. Maybe one day you'll need such a '24 hour shift'.