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RAAF Flight Screening Program (Merged)

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RAAF Flight Screening Program (Merged)

Old 4th Apr 2018, 10:59
  #3601 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
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@hans That's great if the ADFA and DEO ASP is separate (hopefully that means lower score since there are more Pilot slots in ADFA especially at the start of the year), my chances aren't looking bad and I'm on ASP coming up quite soon so looks like I'll be one of the first few. Also, is there any tests which involve pen and paper (like additional testing / you session exams)? Or is it all mental arithmetic?
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Old 6th Apr 2018, 09:33
  #3602 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by hansfalkenhagen View Post
I can't really comment on that.

Like I've said many times before, the best thing you can do is practice any old aptitude test in general. Get used to reading and answering questions quickly and accurately.

"Preparing" yourself for the ASP will probably only get you a 5-10% increase in your results (besides good rest and nutrition). You can't really increase your cognitive ability or increase your IQ; it is what it is.

For most, there's bigger issues than your ASP grades. Recently I was reading a thesis on the Canadian military's pilot selection. It suggested that your psych evaluation will have just as heavy bearing on your chances of pilot selection as the ASP will. For example, those with higher levels of "consciousness" and lower levels of "extraversion" and "neuroticism" are looked upon much more favourably than those whose levels were reversed for these particular functions. Even for officer candidates in general, your second and third function for personality typing should be "intuited" and "thinking", with the first and fourth function having no bearing. This is the Five Factor Model and research started by Carl Jung, if anyone's not familiar with it).

While this is just speculation, I still think that this is perhaps why some candidates who scored higher than I did were not offered OSBs. The ADF know what they are looking for. There's not a lot you can do to change your traits, cognitive ability, personality functions, etc.

I'd just go along and try to enjoy the experience, and good luck!
Absolutely amazing stuff, can't believe you weren't recommended. This is very interesting, seems there's more to this than meets the eye. In the thesis, was there any mention of how these traits were determined and how old is this thesis? Are they based off some ASP results or your initial psych evaluation from assessment day
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Old 6th Apr 2018, 11:58
  #3603 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by quantify View Post
Absolutely amazing stuff, can't believe you weren't recommended. This is very interesting, seems there's more to this than meets the eye. In the thesis, was there any mention of how these traits were determined and how old is this thesis? Are they based off some ASP results or your initial psych evaluation from assessment day
I was recommended. I am still waiting on a date for my OSB.

The thesis was written in 2014 but is summarized from about 20 years of data.

The psych traits are determined during your assessment day. Your cognitive ability is determined during your ASP.

Your paperwork (on the provision you have received it by now) will list all the things ACMC take in to account when offering OSB's to certain candidates. I listed these a few pages back. Basically, countries like the UK, Canada, India, etc have had programs similar to the ASP for years. They have enough data to know exactly what type of candidate will pass pilot's training and thus not waste the ADF's time and the tax payer's dollar.

The ADF are essentially looking for specific indicators that define
successful pilot candidates:
- certain psychological traits
- a certain cut-off for cognitive aptitude testing
- high levels of motivation (so you don't have a cry half way through training and decide you want to quit)
- AVMED Class 1 (pretty self-explanatory)

How flexible they are on these indicators is anyone's guess.

Finally, during the OSB, I think the ADF will know within about 10 seconds of meeting you if they want to hire you or not.
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Old 7th Apr 2018, 00:30
  #3604 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by hansfalkenhagen View Post
They have enough data to know exactly what type of candidate will pass pilot's training and thus not waste the ADF's time and the tax payer's dollar.
If that's the case, how come so many people fail pilots course then?? Failure rates traditionally hover around the 30-40% level. Sometimes less, sometimes more.

My course started with 24 and finished with 9.
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Old 7th Apr 2018, 02:13
  #3605 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
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Originally Posted by hansfalkenhagen View Post
I was recommended. I am still waiting on a date for my OSB.

The thesis was written in 2014 but is summarized from about 20 years of data.

The psych traits are determined during your assessment day. Your cognitive ability is determined during your ASP.

Your paperwork (on the provision you have received it by now) will list all the things ACMC take in to account when offering OSB's to certain candidates. I listed these a few pages back. Basically, countries like the UK, Canada, India, etc have had programs similar to the ASP for years. They have enough data to know exactly what type of candidate will pass pilot's training and thus not waste the ADF's time and the tax payer's dollar.

The ADF are essentially looking for specific indicators that define
successful pilot candidates:
- certain psychological traits
- a certain cut-off for cognitive aptitude testing
- high levels of motivation (so you don't have a cry half way through training and decide you want to quit)
- AVMED Class 1 (pretty self-explanatory)

How flexible they are on these indicators is anyone's guess.

Finally, during the OSB, I think the ADF will know within about 10 seconds of meeting you if they want to hire you or not.
That;s great, hope you get the offer. What's interesting is something I overlooked and just realised about the selection of ASP candidates. In the invitation email, it said that if I wasn't available for the given dates, "I would be placed back in the competitive pool for a potential future offer", does this confirm that ASP is merit based? Also based on your speculation, if the psych evaluation conducted at assessment day is just as important as the ASP results, then one could say that getting an offer for ASP would prove difficult if they determined your psych was not suitable for pilot. But again, they are screening for 3 jobs and not just pilot so getting an offer regardless for other roles makes sense.

Last edited by quantify; 7th Apr 2018 at 22:25.
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Old 7th Apr 2018, 02:14
  #3606 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Slezy9 View Post
If that's the case, how come so many people fail pilots course then?? Failure rates traditionally hover around the 30-40% level. Sometimes less, sometimes more.

My course started with 24 and finished with 9.
So many people have failed pilot's course in Aus because it is much easier to pass the FSP than it is the ASP.

If everyone who sat your course completed the ASP before starting pilot's course, then chances are you would have only had 9 people start the course in the first place, effectively lowering the fail rate. See the point I am making here?

Somewhere along the lines someone in the ADF has said "hmmm... countries that use this particular cognitive test have a much lower fail-rate in pilot's course than we do. Perhaps we should change the FSP to the ASP, it is a cheaper alternative after all."
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Old 7th Apr 2018, 04:47
  #3607 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by hansfalkenhagen View Post
So many people have failed pilot's course in Aus because it is much easier to pass the FSP than it is the ASP.

If everyone who sat your course completed the ASP before starting pilot's course, then chances are you would have only had 9 people start the course in the first place, effectively lowering the fail rate. See the point I am making here?

Somewhere along the lines someone in the ADF has said "hmmm... countries that use this particular cognitive test have a much lower fail-rate in pilot's course than we do. Perhaps we should change the FSP to the ASP, it is a cheaper alternative after all."
No. The reason other countries have higher pass rates is because they have a different training philosophy. Take the Luftwaffe for example, once you're in you are given the hours required to meet there standard. In the RAAF you get 2 remedials, a psych consult and then a re-fly, fail that and you're potentially gone.
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Old 7th Apr 2018, 05:47
  #3608 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Slezy9 View Post
No. The reason other countries have higher pass rates is because they have a different training philosophy. Take the Luftwaffe for example, once you're in you are given the hours required to meet there standard. In the RAAF you get 2 remedials, a psych consult and then a re-fly, fail that and you're potentially gone.
than you better go visit hermann goring's grave and let him know his hiring practices were second to none
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Old 7th Apr 2018, 09:05
  #3609 (permalink)  
 
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So many people have failed pilot's course in Aus because it is much easier to pass the FSP than it is the ASP.
Hans, that's a big call at an early stage!
One can only hope the ASP turns out to be the filter that stops such attrition on Pilots' Course.
(My course was 8 graduates of 28 starters - which is a waste...)
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Old 7th Apr 2018, 09:18
  #3610 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by josephfeatherweight View Post
Hans, that's a big call at an early stage!
One can only hope the ASP turns out to be the filter that stops such attrition on Pilots' Course.
(My course was 8 graduates of 28 starters - which is a waste...)
Not my opinion. It's the opinion i've read in several thesis written on the topic, with data collected since 1999. The ASP has the same computer test used by other militaries around the world
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Old 7th Apr 2018, 09:40
  #3611 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by josephfeatherweight View Post
One can only hope the ASP turns out to be the filter that stops such attrition on Pilots' Course.
From my research and what I could squeeze out of those who are close to the new selection and training systems down in Sale; the ASP is not as good a predictor of success on pilots course up until wings level (it is, just not to a huge degree of statistical significance) as it is a predictor of successful completion of an operational conversion. Even though it is still a huge waste of money for someone to scrub out at BFTS or 2FTS it's relatively small compared to losing someone in their final weeks at 2OCU. At least with the new air academy it's very simple (or is intended to be) for someone to slot straight into another role should they fail early on.

I didn't get the privilege to attend flight screening but those on my ASP who had said that there was very little crossover. So objectively the ASP and flight screening are two completely different selection tools and being good at one doesn't necessitate being good at the other.

Also Hans, I wish as many people read my Masters thesis as that Canadian lady's.
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Old 7th Apr 2018, 11:51
  #3612 (permalink)  
 
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Even though it is still a huge waste of money for someone to scrub out at BFTS or 2FTS it's relatively small compared to losing someone in their final weeks at 2OCU.
That is indeed true!
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Old 7th Apr 2018, 12:27
  #3613 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tayra View Post
So objectively the ASP and flight screening are two completely different selection tools and being good at one doesn't necessitate being good at the other.
.
I agree. Almost everyone in my group, and the other groups I had talked to, who had passed the FSP and OSB had failed the ASP. One guy had passed the ASP, but just barely.

There's a report that also says from the years 2010 to 2015, the RAF pass rate for commencing flying training to reaching the relevant operational conversion unit were as follows:

- Fast Jet: 78%
- Multi Engine: 93.6%
- Rotary: 91.8%

We have adopted the RAF's selection criteria. I don't believe we will ever have a 100% pass rate but we will certainly be seeing an improvement.
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Old 7th Apr 2018, 20:29
  #3614 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by hansfalkenhagen View Post
We have adopted the RAF's selection criteria. I don't believe we will ever have a 100% pass rate but we will certainly be seeing an improvement.
We may have adopted the RAF selection process but we haven't adopted the RAF training philosophy...

Remedial training time limits will still see 20-30% of people not pass pilots course.

BTW, you are very confident for someone who hasn't even set foot in the door...
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Old 8th Apr 2018, 01:54
  #3615 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Slezy9 View Post


_________________
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Old 8th Apr 2018, 02:20
  #3616 (permalink)  
 
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The RAF has everyone start a fast jet course. If a trainee fails this they will be streamed to multi eng or Rotarhead.
The RAAF has one completion standard. You either make it or you don't.
Because of this the RAF has always had a better pass rate.
The course I was on started a few months after Joseph's, 29 started and 19 passed.

Last edited by donpizmeov; 8th Apr 2018 at 06:27.
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Old 8th Apr 2018, 12:11
  #3617 (permalink)  
 
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In addition to the preceding comments about training, my own observations about BFTS/2FTS are that the RAAF is as much about being able to quickly learn/adapt as it is in mastering required flying skills - hence the different approach.

With sufficient repetition most people who got to BFTS would likely complete 2FTS. But then military flying is rarely repetitious ...
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Old 9th Apr 2018, 05:42
  #3618 (permalink)  
 
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18 started and 12 passed.

Agreed, you seem pretty good at telling a group of people (some of whom are QFIís with years of experience) how it is. Thatíll go down well on pilots course.
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Old 9th Apr 2018, 08:58
  #3619 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by junior.VH-LFA View Post
18 started and 12 passed.

Agreed, you seem pretty good at telling a group of people (some of whom are QFIís with years of experience) how it is. Thatíll go down well on pilots course.
Calm down, Junior. I have relayed information and statistics that have been made from people whom are much smarter than we are, that's it. I can link you the reports and theses if you like.

Like I've said before, this thread has been helpful to me so I have decided to share my experience of the ASP for those who are still waiting for an invite - it was a 10 month wait for most of us, and may be longer for those yet to receive an offer.

I think I'll make this my last post and just get on with it.

This is a thread is for aspiring pilots after all, not disgruntled ones. And cheer up in the mean time, you do have a fantastic career.
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Old 9th Apr 2018, 12:20
  #3620 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
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Being smart and skilled isn't enough. Some examples:

Two ADFA graduates I knew, both with significant GA experience: one failed during BFTS; the other during 2FTS

Another student failed a re-test of the final sequence at BFTS. I later worked with a friend of theirs and was told the student was so stressed that failing the flight (and the course) came as a huge relief.

And another student was back-coursed because of (rumour had it) his 'attitude' toward instructors
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