ASW aircraft - what is needed?
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HAAWC
P8 will not need to come close to the surface to drop torpedoes:
http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Navy...apability.html
http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Navy...apability.html
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
DaveJB,
I reckon its safe as even SOSUS was written up by the Russians. In the early 80s we did our famous Bear impersonation and landed at Alconbury with Russian material flitched from magazines (probably be done for copyright infringement). One piece in my pocket had a full page on all the NATO acoustic equipments.
For those that could not read Russian it had a helpful ray path diagram with each RP annotated 1C, SSQ41, etc to Sosus. Even the lofar buoys were shown with convergence zone RP.
As a Dry Man you will have been into dentollogy then?
I reckon its safe as even SOSUS was written up by the Russians. In the early 80s we did our famous Bear impersonation and landed at Alconbury with Russian material flitched from magazines (probably be done for copyright infringement). One piece in my pocket had a full page on all the NATO acoustic equipments.
For those that could not read Russian it had a helpful ray path diagram with each RP annotated 1C, SSQ41, etc to Sosus. Even the lofar buoys were shown with convergence zone RP.
As a Dry Man you will have been into dentollogy then?
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
P8 will not need to come close to the surface to drop torpedoes:
http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Navy...apability.html
http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Navy...apability.html
Is this an industry initiative or a user requirement?
The greater the distance from release to splash point increases the time late at datum.
At 300 yards per minute a 9 kt submarine could double the error distance from splash point for a glide delivery from 20000 feet. A powered glide would reduce the time late but increase costs and complexity.
Not saying it can't be done but it is not simple.
I have seen crews lose a sitting target as they tried to excessively define the datum. OTOH a crew that gains a contact and prosecutes within 3-4 minutes often gets the kill. Minimising time late is every thing.
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MM,
How about taking him through an LCL or the merits of a 350 foot or 700 foot Codar plant?
Oddly there are any number of novels with far more precise info than discussed here. Patrick Robinson's , as mentored by Sir Sandy Woodward, for one.
Digressing, what the uninitiated would consider secret is the info in Eight Lives Down by Major Chris Foster. It is an absolute page turner and faster paced than a novel. There is some artistic licence as no one would remember conversations with the accuracy with which Chris writes.
How about taking him through an LCL or the merits of a 350 foot or 700 foot Codar plant?
Oddly there are any number of novels with far more precise info than discussed here. Patrick Robinson's , as mentored by Sir Sandy Woodward, for one.
Digressing, what the uninitiated would consider secret is the info in Eight Lives Down by Major Chris Foster. It is an absolute page turner and faster paced than a novel. There is some artistic licence as no one would remember conversations with the accuracy with which Chris writes.
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What makes a good ASW aircraft ... ask a submariner!
Even the UK Crews beg for 20 minutes to get hidden when there's a Merlin about.
... But of one of you kind chaps could deliver fuel, chow and replacement buoys.
Even the UK Crews beg for 20 minutes to get hidden when there's a Merlin about.
... But of one of you kind chaps could deliver fuel, chow and replacement buoys.
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Understood,
Whilst I'd agree a lot is out there there are a few areas I'm less blabby about. I appreciate others may quite reasonably feel happy going into more detail - I wouldn't want to accidentally add things that are perhaps not on general release so I try to err on the side of caution.
Anyhow, in the case of Elmo I think going into more precise detail would add to the confusion!
Dentology - yes, I did a bit of that...it used to be one of the first things we did once the purple had gone and the photos arrived. (Provided food hadn't just arrived, of course).
Whilst I'd agree a lot is out there there are a few areas I'm less blabby about. I appreciate others may quite reasonably feel happy going into more detail - I wouldn't want to accidentally add things that are perhaps not on general release so I try to err on the side of caution.
Anyhow, in the case of Elmo I think going into more precise detail would add to the confusion!
Dentology - yes, I did a bit of that...it used to be one of the first things we did once the purple had gone and the photos arrived. (Provided food hadn't just arrived, of course).
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* I doubt you'll get 737's crossing the Atlantic, by the way, so I'd have thought that P8's would fail to benefit from any conceivable camouflage effect...they'll be the only version of the 737 out over the oggin.
The C-40's cross the Atlantic everyday replacing the old C-9 in the VIP transport role.
Also, a few other nations use the BBJ (Of which the C-40 derived from i think) and this is a VIP/Private Exec variant of the B-737. Again flown everyday over the North Atlantic on the NAT Tracks.
However most of the C-40s are bright blue and white (or white) unlike the P-8
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Well, you learn something new every day - although I'm a bit surprised that the C40 (737-700C) has the legs for it, with a range of 3000 nm I'd have thought US mainland to UK would be a bit of a stretch. (Maybe the great circle chops more off than I thought <g>).
I rather took Elmo to be suggesting that the P8 engine noise would be disguised by the commercial 737 traffic, and whilst I've finally managed to convince myself that a twin engined 767 is okay for a trip across the pond it DOES have a teensy bit more range...I still don't think the P8 will find a great deal of 737 traffic masking it.
I rather took Elmo to be suggesting that the P8 engine noise would be disguised by the commercial 737 traffic, and whilst I've finally managed to convince myself that a twin engined 767 is okay for a trip across the pond it DOES have a teensy bit more range...I still don't think the P8 will find a great deal of 737 traffic masking it.
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Thanks for that link, L. Hound:
Navy Selects LockMart For MK-54 Torpedoes High Altitude Launch Capability
Currently, P-3s (pictured) must descend to a low altitude to deliver the MK54. The HAAWC concept improves the delivery accuracy and shortens the engagement time of the MK54 torpedo.
by Staff Writers
Orlando FL (SPX) Jun 14, 2006
The U.S. Navy awarded Lockheed Martin a 12-month, $3 million contract for its High Altitude Anti-Submarine Warfare Weapons Concept (HAAWC). The program will demonstrate delivery of the MK-54 lightweight torpedo from a P-3C aircraft operating at high altitudes (approximately 20,000) feet.
Lockheed Martin's HAAWC concept employs the Lockheed Martin LongShot(R) Wing Adapter Kit to allow the launch of torpedoes from high altitudes and long standoff ranges. This technology enables P-3C aircrews to launch from outside the range of enemy air defenses.
"This is a significant operational enhancement over the P-3C's current method of launching MK-54s from close to the surface against submarine targets," said Alan Jackson, director of the HAAWC program at Lockheed Martin Missiles and Fire Control. …
http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Navy...K_54_Torpedoes_High_Altitude_Launch_Capability.html.
Navy Selects LockMart For MK-54 Torpedoes High Altitude Launch Capability
Currently, P-3s (pictured) must descend to a low altitude to deliver the MK54. The HAAWC concept improves the delivery accuracy and shortens the engagement time of the MK54 torpedo.
by Staff Writers
Orlando FL (SPX) Jun 14, 2006
The U.S. Navy awarded Lockheed Martin a 12-month, $3 million contract for its High Altitude Anti-Submarine Warfare Weapons Concept (HAAWC). The program will demonstrate delivery of the MK-54 lightweight torpedo from a P-3C aircraft operating at high altitudes (approximately 20,000) feet.
Lockheed Martin's HAAWC concept employs the Lockheed Martin LongShot(R) Wing Adapter Kit to allow the launch of torpedoes from high altitudes and long standoff ranges. This technology enables P-3C aircrews to launch from outside the range of enemy air defenses.
"This is a significant operational enhancement over the P-3C's current method of launching MK-54s from close to the surface against submarine targets," said Alan Jackson, director of the HAAWC program at Lockheed Martin Missiles and Fire Control. …
http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Navy...K_54_Torpedoes_High_Altitude_Launch_Capability.html.
M Elmo
Your Navy quote for high level torp drop is still below the Nimrod Stingray clearance.
As for the accuracy of a high level drop, the aircrafts ballistic prediction takes care of most of it, including the target movement while the torp is in flight, this all assumes a constant wind on the way down and no change of MLA from the target, both of which are very big assumptions to make.
The bottom line is that, generally speaking, the lower the better, a lot less variables to worry about.
Your Navy quote for high level torp drop is still below the Nimrod Stingray clearance.
As for the accuracy of a high level drop, the aircrafts ballistic prediction takes care of most of it, including the target movement while the torp is in flight, this all assumes a constant wind on the way down and no change of MLA from the target, both of which are very big assumptions to make.
The bottom line is that, generally speaking, the lower the better, a lot less variables to worry about.
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davejb
You're quite right regarding the 737 masking over the N.Atlantic.
My point about the C-40 and BBJ didn't show the fact that these flights, although everyday, amount to just one or two (C-40) a day/night so hardly enough to mask the P-8 into the "background noise".
The C-40 Clipper has enough range to enable a flight from Andrews AFB to Germany.
How much endurance does the MRA4 have over the MR2 with the more efficient engines?
You're quite right regarding the 737 masking over the N.Atlantic.
My point about the C-40 and BBJ didn't show the fact that these flights, although everyday, amount to just one or two (C-40) a day/night so hardly enough to mask the P-8 into the "background noise".
The C-40 Clipper has enough range to enable a flight from Andrews AFB to Germany.
How much endurance does the MRA4 have over the MR2 with the more efficient engines?
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As for the accuracy of a high level drop, the aircrafts ballistic prediction takes care of most of it, including the target movement while the torp is in flight, this all assumes a constant wind on the way down and no change of MLA from the target, both of which are very big assumptions to make.
The bottom line is that, generally speaking, the lower the better, a lot less variables to worry about.
Compare to:
Navy Selects LockMart For MK-54 Torpedoes High Altitude Launch Capability
by Staff Writers
Orlando FL (SPX) Jun 14, 2006
...
"Currently, P-3s must descend to a low altitude to deliver the MK54. The HAAWC concept improves the delivery accuracy and shortens the engagement time of the MK54 torpedo.
This new capability will also increase the survivability of both of the aircrew and the aircraft by providing safe standoff. The standoff capability could potentially opens up the possibility for future of using MK-54s against surface targets by allowing the aircraft to launch [ torpedos ] from outside the range of a ship's air defenses."
...
No aircraft modification is required to deploy a LongShot equipped munition. The system is completely self-contained, including a flight control computer, a GPS-based navigation system and power sources and does not require an electrical interface with the aircraft.
http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Navy...apability.html
The bottom line is that, generally speaking, the lower the better, a lot less variables to worry about.
Compare to:
Navy Selects LockMart For MK-54 Torpedoes High Altitude Launch Capability
by Staff Writers
Orlando FL (SPX) Jun 14, 2006
...
"Currently, P-3s must descend to a low altitude to deliver the MK54. The HAAWC concept improves the delivery accuracy and shortens the engagement time of the MK54 torpedo.
This new capability will also increase the survivability of both of the aircrew and the aircraft by providing safe standoff. The standoff capability could potentially opens up the possibility for future of using MK-54s against surface targets by allowing the aircraft to launch [ torpedos ] from outside the range of a ship's air defenses."
...
No aircraft modification is required to deploy a LongShot equipped munition. The system is completely self-contained, including a flight control computer, a GPS-based navigation system and power sources and does not require an electrical interface with the aircraft.
http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Navy...apability.html
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MRA4 v MR2 - Like you, I'd have to rely on 'tInternet these days for that sort of info...eg Wiki has MR2 range up to 5755nm and MRA4 at 6910 nm - having said that I always just looked at sortie length (it told me how long my working day was going to be, once I'd added 3 hrs preflight and at least an hour after). 10 hr 15 the longest unrefuelled I 'enjoyed', of course AAR could make for rather longer.....
Wiki also says MR2 ceiling 44000 ft - anyone been anywhere near that in practise? I vaguely recall getting to 400-410 once, but my memory of that is very faint.
Wiki also says MR2 ceiling 44000 ft - anyone been anywhere near that in practise? I vaguely recall getting to 400-410 once, but my memory of that is very faint.
Height in a Nimrod?
A looooong time ago a certain co-pilot on CXX was able to claim the High Altitude Irish jig playing record at FL410+ a bit, in the middle of the night, in mid Atlantic, on the way home from Canadia. It was certified by the (Irish) Shanwick controller who when asked
"Did you get that?"
replied very slowly "Just what are you fellas DOIN' up dere?"
Followed by a "Please can we go down a bit?"
The Ancient Mariner
PS I never did like the pressure breathing practice at North Luffenham on the avmed course.
"Did you get that?"
replied very slowly "Just what are you fellas DOIN' up dere?"
Followed by a "Please can we go down a bit?"
The Ancient Mariner
PS I never did like the pressure breathing practice at North Luffenham on the avmed course.
Last edited by Rossian; 24th Jun 2008 at 17:15. Reason: second thoughts
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
davejb, I remember an air test in a Mk 1 to 410. Really wallowing then. Buy why fly at 410?
Radar horizon at 400 is 240. As an ASW platform it was no advantage being 7 miles from the action. For ASuW it just put you into the EW bracket earlier than need be.
As for the range, the BBC was always interested in how far we had flown and always noted the air mileage flown for their travel claims.
Radar horizon at 400 is 240. As an ASW platform it was no advantage being 7 miles from the action. For ASuW it just put you into the EW bracket earlier than need be.
As for the range, the BBC was always interested in how far we had flown and always noted the air mileage flown for their travel claims.
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PN - Why 410?
While extracting that range info from Wiki (the source of all planetary knowledge - some of it correct) I noticed the MR2 ceiling was quoted as 440, which seemed a touch higher than I expected. I could just about dredge 410 from my memory, but I'm pretty sure that was a one off event.
AVMED - first time I went there they blew one of my ear drums in, I was stone deaf in the left ear for several days...it popped back out into fully working order as I went underwater from the back of the launch on the 'floaty dinghy puke regatta' part of the welcome package.
Oh, and to add to the theoretical debate on the ASW aircraft...something that didn't require gymnastics down the back would be nice, so how about a dispenser system for buoys that simply fed the buoys out automatically, with electronic setting from the nav station for life, depth (hey, let's add buoy type into that...click the buttons and you get any flavour you want).
To make it easier for the nav, all buoys have collapsible steel rods on top - on landing in the sea they extend their rods and lock onto each other, thus ensuring that they maintain the pretty buoy patterns on the tac screen rather than being blatted out of shape by time and an inconsiderate sea!
I remember a very old idea that sounded just the job for ASW - large floats with **** off great huge ginormous magnets on, attached to gas filled balloons by cable. You watch for one of the balloons to start moving, and drop the torp underneath it.
While extracting that range info from Wiki (the source of all planetary knowledge - some of it correct) I noticed the MR2 ceiling was quoted as 440, which seemed a touch higher than I expected. I could just about dredge 410 from my memory, but I'm pretty sure that was a one off event.
AVMED - first time I went there they blew one of my ear drums in, I was stone deaf in the left ear for several days...it popped back out into fully working order as I went underwater from the back of the launch on the 'floaty dinghy puke regatta' part of the welcome package.
Oh, and to add to the theoretical debate on the ASW aircraft...something that didn't require gymnastics down the back would be nice, so how about a dispenser system for buoys that simply fed the buoys out automatically, with electronic setting from the nav station for life, depth (hey, let's add buoy type into that...click the buttons and you get any flavour you want).
To make it easier for the nav, all buoys have collapsible steel rods on top - on landing in the sea they extend their rods and lock onto each other, thus ensuring that they maintain the pretty buoy patterns on the tac screen rather than being blatted out of shape by time and an inconsiderate sea!
I remember a very old idea that sounded just the job for ASW - large floats with **** off great huge ginormous magnets on, attached to gas filled balloons by cable. You watch for one of the balloons to start moving, and drop the torp underneath it.
In the old days, i can remember getting to F420 once but certainly made F410 many times but it takes so long to burn off enough fuel to get up there that it isnt really worth it. Once they removed the ability to pressure brathing from the oxygen system that curtailed all high level flights.
If you really want to stay up for a very very long time, then go to F120 -F130. It sounds low for enduring but in reality its the best height, i think i once managed just short of 11 hours on a Link trial at that height. I does need very smoothinputs from the driver. It was easier on the MK1 to achieve longer endurance, i think the MK2 got a bit heavier or something.
If you really want to stay up for a very very long time, then go to F120 -F130. It sounds low for enduring but in reality its the best height, i think i once managed just short of 11 hours on a Link trial at that height. I does need very smoothinputs from the driver. It was easier on the MK1 to achieve longer endurance, i think the MK2 got a bit heavier or something.
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Honesty required
1771
I thought you always quoted the worst height for endurance to get back for a fag early, I mean siggie , no mean smoke.
Picking up the silver beast after LHR paint removal always made for a bit of malarkey in height vs mach number.
.
I remember the weapon of choice that meant even Bruce Robb and his mile wide crew could get a kill.
Elmo design engineers and scientists have very little practical experience and will float many suggestions to solve solutions, without state based research and development it is left to us to make the best we can with the tools we are given by the lowest bidder, that is why we still fly in old aircraft that have evolved and can actually do the job well. The crew of the platform being well trained and experienced will get it done. I am convinced a update 3 or even AIP P3C could do a better job if the US Navy system allowed it.
Charlie sends
I thought you always quoted the worst height for endurance to get back for a fag early, I mean siggie , no mean smoke.
Picking up the silver beast after LHR paint removal always made for a bit of malarkey in height vs mach number.
.I remember the weapon of choice that meant even Bruce Robb and his mile wide crew could get a kill
. Elmo design engineers and scientists have very little practical experience and will float many suggestions to solve solutions, without state based research and development it is left to us to make the best we can with the tools we are given by the lowest bidder, that is why we still fly in old aircraft that have evolved and can actually do the job well. The crew of the platform being well trained and experienced will get it done. I am convinced a update 3 or even AIP P3C could do a better job if the US Navy system allowed it.
Charlie sends
)