ASW aircraft - what is needed?
Should have thought the ability to carry round a substantial number of weapons might be a bit handy. Not much point in finding a sub if all you can prosecute it with is harsh language. Similarly, if you're going to be a long endurance significant time-on-task asset you never know when two might come along at once. That would put the mockers on most biz jet solutions......
Thread Starter
The Aussie aircraft that lost a wing did so at 3.4 g - which should have been OK, though the official limit was then 3 g. It wasn't doing anything extraordinary in the role.
How about Nimrod?
How about Nimrod?
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ASW Aircraft
Heard a rumour that due to the withdrawl of 39 US P-3C aircraft due to life fatigue problems, the Viking could be making a reappearance. Currently sitting in warmer dusty climes but "relatively" cheap to get flying again. Biggest problem would be reinstigating the training system. I would be more than willing to spend a few years in San Diego as a training advisor!
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UBM
Jacko The Old chubby one hit the nail on the head with the first post, UAVs may be good at finding tuna schools, but ASW please nerds back the fxxx down 
.
MMA is being pitched as a system, flawed but a system of which it is one part. As for G and heights a good crew with well placed tactics dont need to fling it around. MAD raving MAD is used to refine errors in plotting to put stingray into action or the the dumb bomb with a propellor on it that is Mk 46 update 336.
The problem is the crew, the only RN that are capable in ASW are the tgts themselves and not the bomber fags. RAF MPA used to be good as were the Dutch, Canadians and Aussies. The Kiwis were always better lucky than good and the spams woeful except for the odd reserve crew out of Brunswick via Kef. Only observed Ivan from odd occasion we met over the oggin, all the research has dried up due to the rebranding of DERA to DLST so capability moves forward at a snails pace.
Anyhow too much G and you wake the old fellas and spill their tea/curry.
Charlie sends
from 100'moa, rarely these days though
.MMA is being pitched as a system, flawed but a system of which it is one part. As for G and heights a good crew with well placed tactics dont need to fling it around. MAD raving MAD is used to refine errors in plotting to put stingray into action or the the dumb bomb with a propellor on it that is Mk 46 update 336.
The problem is the crew, the only RN that are capable in ASW are the tgts themselves and not the bomber fags. RAF MPA used to be good as were the Dutch, Canadians and Aussies. The Kiwis were always better lucky than good and the spams woeful except for the odd reserve crew out of Brunswick via Kef. Only observed Ivan from odd occasion we met over the oggin, all the research has dried up due to the rebranding of DERA to DLST so capability moves forward at a snails pace.
Anyhow too much G and you wake the old fellas and spill their tea/curry.
Charlie sends
from 100'moa, rarely these days though
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Jackonicko..
I'm involved in the AEW&C 737NG, though it's not a low level airplane by any means, that involvement has me seeing P8 info at times.
Neither airplane has a 2.2g/250 foot limit as far as I am aware.
Oh.. the Aussie P3C didn't lose a wing, though the result was nearly as bad - actually 5 of the 6 leading edges seperated following a really violent pitch up maneuver - an aero showing-off stunt!
Cheers, and keep me entertained,
FD...
I'm involved in the AEW&C 737NG, though it's not a low level airplane by any means, that involvement has me seeing P8 info at times.
Neither airplane has a 2.2g/250 foot limit as far as I am aware.
Oh.. the Aussie P3C didn't lose a wing, though the result was nearly as bad - actually 5 of the 6 leading edges seperated following a really violent pitch up maneuver - an aero showing-off stunt!
Cheers, and keep me entertained,
FD...
Thread Starter
FD,
The limits were as quoted by the Boeing programme manager last week, who checked the information with programme folk.
P-8 is a different airframe, as you know, built on a separate line, and built as military from scratch. They don't take a green civvy airframe and mod it like they do with the Mighty Wedgie! The limits quoted caused some confusion, as the g limit is lower than that of the basic 737-800, and the volume of questions led to the information being re-checked.
I was getting my leading edge detachment and wing coming off incidents muddled. The wing off must have been the USN aircraft, I guess? (Though I know that both were below 3.5 g).
I had a look over your No.3 Wedgetail last week (the first Aussie conversion). The Boeing folk were very impressed by the workmanship. I'd have been interested to look over the Turkish aircraft too, but that was firmly not on our agenda!
The limits were as quoted by the Boeing programme manager last week, who checked the information with programme folk.
P-8 is a different airframe, as you know, built on a separate line, and built as military from scratch. They don't take a green civvy airframe and mod it like they do with the Mighty Wedgie! The limits quoted caused some confusion, as the g limit is lower than that of the basic 737-800, and the volume of questions led to the information being re-checked.
I was getting my leading edge detachment and wing coming off incidents muddled. The wing off must have been the USN aircraft, I guess? (Though I know that both were below 3.5 g).
I had a look over your No.3 Wedgetail last week (the first Aussie conversion). The Boeing folk were very impressed by the workmanship. I'd have been interested to look over the Turkish aircraft too, but that was firmly not on our agenda!
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I know that if you don't have a MAD, then you don't need to fly those gut-wrenching cloverleafs (or vomit inducing MAD compensation runs), but isn't a MAD still a useful secondary sensor?
The USN isn't emphasizing magnetic anomaly detection for the P-8's. It could be that shining a laser of a certain blue-green wavelength into the water does as well or better than MAD at detecting submerged objects. It could be that the platform doesn't have to descend to very low altitude to operate the laser system, or to visually examine the sea using platform stabilized, telescopic optical devices.
And don't the Nimrods and P-3s pull more than 2.2 g? And don't they go below 250 ft to prosecute an ASW attack?
Unlikely.
Young man, it isn't the 1940's anymore. There aren't going to be Liberators making strafing passes with 50 cal. guns. And where did your 2.2g requirement come from in regard to ASW aircraft? I doubt if B-24's were good for 2.2g pull-ups.
Nowadays, ASW aircraft doen't have to descend to altitudes anywhere near that low to launch acoustic homing torpedos or precision-guided air-to-surface munitions.
The USN isn't emphasizing magnetic anomaly detection for the P-8's. It could be that shining a laser of a certain blue-green wavelength into the water does as well or better than MAD at detecting submerged objects. It could be that the platform doesn't have to descend to very low altitude to operate the laser system, or to visually examine the sea using platform stabilized, telescopic optical devices.
And don't the Nimrods and P-3s pull more than 2.2 g? And don't they go below 250 ft to prosecute an ASW attack?
Unlikely.
Young man, it isn't the 1940's anymore. There aren't going to be Liberators making strafing passes with 50 cal. guns. And where did your 2.2g requirement come from in regard to ASW aircraft? I doubt if B-24's were good for 2.2g pull-ups.
Nowadays, ASW aircraft doen't have to descend to altitudes anywhere near that low to launch acoustic homing torpedos or precision-guided air-to-surface munitions.
Charlie L has summed it up pretty well. The only point that no one has really raised is the weapons fit. I recall a point being made at a JMC debrief many years ago, ARAR/ARAX would never sink a submarine, it needed something in the water that went bang. Airborne ASW weapons procurement has always been the preserve of MoD(N) and generally based upon the premise that whatever a helo can carry will be OK for the MPA. That's fine and easier on the budget, but we end up with lightweight weapons that are in many respects a compromise. A purpose designed MPA ASW weapon could be much larger and considerably more capable. Wire guidance via a buoy system, stand off capability to reduce time late at datum, higher speed longer endurance weapon, multiple weapons with separate search pattenrs (as long as we can stop then fancying each other more than submarines
) There are a lot of possibilities out there.
YS
) There are a lot of possibilities out there.YS
Last edited by Yellow Sun; 18th Jun 2008 at 18:02.
"Nowadays, ASW aircraft doen't have to descend to altitudes anywhere near that low to launch acoustic homing torpedos or precision-guided air-to-surface munitions"
Errr, you know the cleared release altitudes for Stingray & Mk50 then.......
Errr, you know the cleared release altitudes for Stingray & Mk50 then.......
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What about rotary ASW
What makes an ASW platform
Merlin HM MK1. Although only 8 Barra/Hidar capable it can come to a hover and lower a very potent ASW sensor (FLASH)
No need to pull G in a gut wrenching turn, just a sedate engage down and lower the body.
Carried on frigates and carriers availlable anywhere in the world and very good in the littoral. Simple re-role for SAR, NEO and b echelon support. Oh in the SAR role it can rescue people too not just provide a comms link.
Fly Navy its the way ahead.
Merlin HM MK1. Although only 8 Barra/Hidar capable it can come to a hover and lower a very potent ASW sensor (FLASH)
No need to pull G in a gut wrenching turn, just a sedate engage down and lower the body.
Carried on frigates and carriers availlable anywhere in the world and very good in the littoral. Simple re-role for SAR, NEO and b echelon support. Oh in the SAR role it can rescue people too not just provide a comms link.
Fly Navy its the way ahead.
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...but just a teensy bit difficult to task into an area 500 miles away from homeplate...unless you are willing to accept rather a large amount of time late...
(Helos)
(Helos)
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This P-8/737: The Navy was calling it a Multi Mission Maritime Aircraft in earlier press releases. It might a mistake to think of it -- or at least all P-8 variants -- as a narrowly specialized ASW platform.
Also, in addition to its nose radar, I read somewhere that the P-8 -- or some P-8's -- may be getting a ventrally mounted electronically scanned radar antenna looking to the left and right. ( This would be a narrow bulge several meters long behind the weapons bay, which has apparently been moved from behind the wing to in front.)
This radar would give the P-8 a functional capability similar to what the JSTARS aircraft does. This type of radar operation implies higher cruising altitude -- in other words, turbofans instead of turbprops.
Also, in addition to its nose radar, I read somewhere that the P-8 -- or some P-8's -- may be getting a ventrally mounted electronically scanned radar antenna looking to the left and right. ( This would be a narrow bulge several meters long behind the weapons bay, which has apparently been moved from behind the wing to in front.)
This radar would give the P-8 a functional capability similar to what the JSTARS aircraft does. This type of radar operation implies higher cruising altitude -- in other words, turbofans instead of turbprops.
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The Old Fat One
Essential
An excellent radar
Full sonar suite - passive sonar, short range active, long range active
Excellent central processing and data fusion
A fully trained crew.
Weapons capability
Endurance
Speed
Range
Desireable
MAD - Maybe, depends on a number of factors, I'm out of touch on the latest variants.
ESM - Medium range tactical, just in case.
Biggest challenge - training the crew.
Essential
An excellent radar
Full sonar suite - passive sonar, short range active, long range active
Excellent central processing and data fusion
A fully trained crew.
Weapons capability
Endurance
Speed
Range
Desireable
MAD - Maybe, depends on a number of factors, I'm out of touch on the latest variants.
ESM - Medium range tactical, just in case.
Biggest challenge - training the crew.
Also have to include a Galley , ASW crews cannot fly without food , its known fact
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The upgrades
TOFO
I now find a bunk comes in quite useful
George Foreman Grill - those stripes on your steak and lobster tails look good
A bloody Microwave - no acoustic god should have to wait 20 mins for a curry.
Suitable cups to play Lie Dice.
Satellite phone - to book tee off times/Hotel/massage with happy ending.
ATM - to pay for four floors activities in Singapore.
Itrip to listen to music via a good ESM when in HF black hole(Calcutta FIR).
Bomb Bay capable of holding Ride On mower across vast oceans.
Trivia questions to sort out first round on landing after transit.
Still love it
Charlie sends
from 100' moa
I now find a bunk comes in quite useful
George Foreman Grill - those stripes on your steak and lobster tails look good
A bloody Microwave - no acoustic god should have to wait 20 mins for a curry.
Suitable cups to play Lie Dice.
Satellite phone - to book tee off times/Hotel/massage with happy ending.
ATM - to pay for four floors activities in Singapore.
Itrip to listen to music via a good ESM when in HF black hole(Calcutta FIR).
Bomb Bay capable of holding Ride On mower across vast oceans.
Trivia questions to sort out first round on landing after transit.
Still love it
Charlie sends
from 100' moa
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"Nowadays, ASW aircraft doen't have to descend to altitudes anywhere near that low to launch acoustic homing torpedos or precision-guided air-to-surface munitions"
Errr, you know the cleared release altitudes for Stingray & Mk50 then.......
Nope, I don't know that info. However, I do know that it would be a mistake to trade off the speed and altitude advantages of a turbofan muliti-mission aircraft ( up to date high bypass fans, not Coronation-of -Elizabeth-II vintage Comet airliner engines) merely to support some legacy weapons which need updating anyway.
Wire guidance via a buoy system ...
How would that work?
Errr, you know the cleared release altitudes for Stingray & Mk50 then.......
Nope, I don't know that info. However, I do know that it would be a mistake to trade off the speed and altitude advantages of a turbofan muliti-mission aircraft ( up to date high bypass fans, not Coronation-of -Elizabeth-II vintage Comet airliner engines) merely to support some legacy weapons which need updating anyway.
Wire guidance via a buoy system ...
How would that work?