Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Military Aviation
Reload this Page >

Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II

Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II

Old 21st Apr 2017, 18:07
  #10501 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: uk
Posts: 1,636
ICM,

Frank's surname is Southern. He was shot down in 1941.
pulse1 is offline  
Old 21st Apr 2017, 19:17
  #10502 (permalink)  
ICM
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Bishops Stortford, UK
Age: 78
Posts: 402
Frank's story - 26 November 1941

Excellent, with that known, there's this:

On 26 November 1941, whilst operating Beaufighters from Landing Ground 10 (Ghrwla), 6 crews of 272 Sqn were tasked for a ground attack on Jedabaya, Soluch and roads in the district. WOp/Observer Sgt Southern was with Sgt Price that day. The unit F540 reports: "The aircraft carried out a low flying attack on Jedabaya aerodrome and the roads in the district, Soluch being obscured by cloud and rain. After shooting down a Caproni 311 over the aerodrome, they badly damaged a Ju 87 and four CR 42s on the ground. One machine, "E," Pilot Sgt Price, Observer Sgt Southern, was shot down by AA fire, but they are believed to be taken prisoner. A formation of four CR 42s was in the air over the aerodrome, one of which was damaged by Flt Lt Campbell in the ensuing shambles. Aircraft"A" returned with front hatch open."
ICM is offline  
Old 22nd Apr 2017, 01:06
  #10503 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 69
Sannatuu ---- George Sproates:

Please contact ICM via this email : [email protected] (10 Sqn Assoc) It will then be forwarded to him and hopefully you will be able to use normal home emails to converse.
Tks. 60plus (icm's co-writer)
70plus is offline  
Old 22nd Apr 2017, 10:51
  #10504 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: uk
Posts: 1,636
ICM,

Frank told me that Sgt Price was badly burned when they crash landed on the airfield that they were attacking. He understood that he was repatriated.
pulse1 is offline  
Old 23rd Apr 2017, 10:33
  #10505 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Oxon
Age: 88
Posts: 260
Have I missed something? Is "soldier A" still in prison?
26er is offline  
Old 25th Apr 2017, 23:12
  #10506 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: West Sussex
Age: 78
Posts: 4,202
Fellow followers of this great thread, it has slipped to page two of the Military Forum which will not please Danny at all! While he remains incommunicado, awaiting the Kiss of Life to his beloved laptop, I suggest that we might contemplate the aviation "What If's" of WW2, though I will gladly defer to any other better suggestions in order to keep the ball rolling. So it is with a certain amount of diffidence that I offer my great preoccupation with those dangerous years and ask, what the hell was the Deputy Fuhrer of Germany doing bailing out of a long range Bf110 over Eaglesham Moor on the night of 10th May 1941?

Wiki suggests that he was intending a landing at the airstrip of Dungavel House, home of the Duke of Hamilton then serving as an RAF Wing Commander at RAF Turnhouse, and where he was on duty that night. Other sources suggest that the airstrip was lit for some 15 minutes and that there was a party of senior officers there, including some Poles, who rapidly dispersed when their expected visitor failed to land.

Hess was captured, identified himself as Hauptman Alfred Horn and asked to speak to Hamilton. No record of that interview is known of. Hamilton himself reported personally to Churchill who simply said "Hess or no Hess, I'm off to see the Marx Brothers" at a film screening. Hitler seemed unsurprised when informed of Hess's flight but quickly switched to plan B and disowned his action as that of a madman. Stalin saw it as proof that the British were part of the anti Soviet machinations that culminated in Operation Barbarossa. Certainly lead figures in the British establishment were pro Nazi and fervently anti Communist, including the ex-King. Was Hamilton, a pre-war aviator of some note having overflown Mt Everest in a Westland PV-3 in 1933, a part of that clique? He probably met Hess when visiting Germany for the 1936 Olympic Games as the guest of Hermann Goering, though always denied it.

After the war Hess was tried along with the other Nazi elite at Nurnberg. The Soviets wanted him hung, in the event he served 40 years in Spandau prison, where he died as the result of "the only horizontal ligature ever recorded in a suicide" by someone who suspected that he was murdered.

The "what if" is to my mind if he had successfully landed at Dungavel, what was then to happen....?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Hess

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-765607.html

Last edited by Chugalug2; 25th Apr 2017 at 23:23.
Chugalug2 is offline  
Old 26th Apr 2017, 18:52
  #10507 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: AndyCappLand
Age: 98
Posts: 7,646
Chugalug,

Danny and his Laptop are glad to be back, both firing on all four cylinders. Thank you for rescuing this, our matchless Thread from the "Slough of Despond" (aka Page 2 of Military Aviation); and it would seem that we are several lengths ahead of the upstart "F-35 cancelled ...." and take our rightful place again as the Thread with the most Posts and hits of any "normal" Thread on this Forum. As I've said more than once: "Cliff Leach (RIP), aka 'Cliffnemo', the 'Onlie Begetter', builded better than he knew" when he started it nine years ago.

As for the Hess affair, it has been a mystery from the outset, and all those who knew the real answers will be dead now. The Wiki article reflects the general opinion at the time. In May, 1941 the B.o.B. had been lost by Hitler, an invasion of Britain was "out of the window"; the "blitz" had not broken our resolve; so he had decided to leave us "on the back burner", while he turned his attention to Russia and started "Barbarossa" in the June.

It would make sense to negotiate a peace with us in the meantime, leaving him free to crush Russia as he'd done with France, by a "blitzkrieg" before General Winter came to aid the Russians. Then he could take up the "unfinshed business" with Britain: any "Peace Agreement" made with us would not be worth the paper it was written on. As it was, it all went pear-shaped, and the rest we know.

All this is "rationalising after the event". The young Danny was sweating his way through ITW in a glorious Cornish summer ... and paying little heed to the momentous events passing over his head.
Danny42C is offline  
Old 26th Apr 2017, 21:14
  #10508 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: uk
Posts: 1,636
Over the years, yes years, this thread has clearly demonstrated its ability to discuss more than one topic at a time. I therefore would love to see those who know far more than I do discuss the following "What if?".

In the mid 30's, Alan Cobham clearly demonstrated the viability of in flight refuelling as a means of extending the range of aircraft. It seemed that the Air Ministry and the leading lights of the RAF were not interested until after the war.

What if the RAF had used the Cobham system to operate a fleet of maritime aircraft to provide air cover over the Mid Atlantic Gap. If they could have been successful, it would certainly have reduced the effectiveness of the U Boat campaigns in the Atlantic and probably have had a much bigger effect than the bombing of German cities. Would navigation systems at that time have been good enough to enable bombers to rendezvous with tankers? Would contemporary large aircraft carry enough fuel for themselves and anyone else or would they have to set up a Black Buck type of operation?

Are there any Coastal Command types in the virtual crew room who could offer an opinion?
pulse1 is offline  
Old 27th Apr 2017, 00:05
  #10509 (permalink)  
ICM
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Bishops Stortford, UK
Age: 78
Posts: 402
P1: I've no Maritime background but, on the nav angle, insofar as it would have affected an ability to rendezvous, I am certainly aware of the Butt Report. Published in mid-1941, it demonstrated that, in general, only one in three Bomber Command aircraft was getting within 5 miles of a target plus a variety of other more dismal conclusions. For Bomber Command, a partial solution was the introduction of Gee - open to jamming - and I don't recall it as having any worthwhile coverage to the west of the UK when using its later versions in the mid-60s.
ICM is offline  
Old 27th Apr 2017, 09:06
  #10510 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: West Sussex
Age: 78
Posts: 4,202
Danny, great to see you back on thread and, "laptop going well tell the designer chappie". Thank you for having read my post re Hess and the links in it. As you say, young Danny was busy marching up and down again various parts of the Cornish coastline while Hess was talking with the Hitler in the Reich Chancellery mere hours before "going mad" on his demanding flight to enemy shores. In other words, Danny was doing his duty, and no doubt the Deputy Fuhrer was doing his too. My question is what about those waiting to meet him at Dungavel House? Were they doing theirs or were they treating with the enemy, ie committing treason? Was this an official peace attempt authorised by HM Government or, and more likely in my view, an attempt to go behind Churchill's back and facilitate the ill fated attempt by Hitler to "liberate" his lebensraum in the East and enslave the peoples there? We know that Halifax (Foreign Secretary) had led an attempt in cabinet to seek peace with Germany after the fiasco of the "Dunkirk miracle" but failed when Churchill threatened to resign. Now Hess turns up after the Royal Air Force has won the strategically vital battle for day-time Air Superiority over the UK, having missed his arranged reception.

On the face of it all pretty damning, and to cap it all Royal courtiers were dispatched post-haste to recover damning letters from Germany immediately after the war, which have been secured at Windsor Castle ever since. The Duke of Windsor was sent as Governor to fight the war on the Bahamas front. Even so, he had to be closely watched, especially on Wallace's shopping trips to the USA. A bad egg indeed, but any odium that he attracted was more than made up for by the immense effort put in by the King and Queen throughout the war and which probably contributed greatly to the premature death of the former.

I agree that all those then involved in the Hess affair have passed on, but the records haven't. They are still in the main yet to be released but eventually the truth, or much of it, will be known. I would suggest that there is enough smoke blowing around already to indicate a fire. We need to be aware of it, and at least to consider my question. If Hess had landed safely at Dungavel, what then was going to happen?

Last edited by Chugalug2; 27th Apr 2017 at 09:17.
Chugalug2 is offline  
Old 27th Apr 2017, 09:54
  #10511 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 4,676
What if---the Japanese had restarted the Russo Japanese War and had attacked north from Manchuria and cut off the Russian Far East from Moscow instead of attacking Pearl Harbour.

It would have isolated a large part of the Russian eastern army, pivotal in the Russian winter offensive and could have led to the collapse of the USSR. America would have kept out of the way whilst Japan, as part of the Axis Pact, would have overrun the European possessions in the Far East.

Germany, now having the oil resources and the ability to recruit volunteers from eastern Europe would have pushed South through Persia to the Indian Ocean securing India in a pincer between the German and Japanese forces.

Once the Southern Oceans were secured then the delayed invasion of Great Britain, a country that had lost all its overseas resources, money and probably moral could take place. Mussolini would then be free to re-establish his new Roman Empire and would take over North Africa.

You would then be left with three Empires.

The Third Reich encompassing Europe north of the Alps, Asia east to the Urals and central and southern Africa.

The Empire of the Sun would consist of India, a line northwards around Tibet and the Mongolias to the Bering Straight. Leaving Hawaii and the Philippines alone it would include the South Pacific islands and the Indonesian archipelago and everything in between.

The United States of America would be responsible for North and South America, Hawaii, Philippines and Australasia.

As all three would have their hands pretty full they would probably get along very well with each other and it could well lead to a century of peace.

Last edited by Fareastdriver; 27th Apr 2017 at 16:25.
Fareastdriver is offline  
Old 27th Apr 2017, 10:39
  #10512 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: West Sussex
Age: 78
Posts: 4,202
FED, purely on the basis that the whole point of this thread is one of friendly discussion, I'll bite if I may. I agree that if Japan had invaded the USSR while it was also being invaded by Germany in the west, then a Soviet collapse would have been the likely outcome.

However, Japan's strategic needs and ambitions were being thwarted by Washington rather than Moscow. It needed the raw materials that it was denied by US sanctions and saw that the only way to get them was by force. The US Pacific Fleet stood in the way and hence had to be eliminated, thus Pearl Harbour. That it didn't get the most vital part of the Pacific Fleet, the carriers, was what Macmillan famously called, "Events, dear boy, events!". So I don't think that your scenario of no Pearl Harbour is a likely one, and mounting both an attack on the USSR and seizing the "The Greater East Asia Co Prosperity Sphere" was probably seen as taking on too much too soon for the Empire of Japan. Just as well that they didn't do so for us of course, as it would have been the end of the British Empire not to its indigenous populations but to its enemies, as well as leading to the subjugation of the United Kingdom itself as you rightly point out.

As to the final world order of three global empires living in mutual tranquillity, I very much doubt it. Mankind's history is one of war. When we finally go where no man has been before we will take our weapons with us and won't hesitate to use them. That is our way, so aliens beware!

Care to bite on my what if?
Chugalug2 is offline  
Old 27th Apr 2017, 11:03
  #10513 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Often in Jersey, but mainly in the past.
Age: 75
Posts: 5,409
Not arguing with the 'FED' scenario as such, but would Germany and/or Japan actually have had sufficient manpower and materiel to occupy successfully such huge swathes of territory?
MPN11 is offline  
Old 27th Apr 2017, 13:01
  #10514 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: uk
Posts: 626
Are there any Coastal Command types in the virtual crew room who could offer an opinion?
The in-flight refuelling systems used as late as 1950 still relied on the looped hose and grapnel technique. Trying to do this over the North Atlantic at night does not commend itself. Granted, under wartime pressure there may have been faster development, but that said, proposals to use in-flight refuelling for Tiger force still relied on hose and grapnel,
As far as using the system to extend into the North Atlantic gap is concerned, the nav aids available at the time were not up to guaranteeing a rendezvous over the sea. The only system which might have worked would be for a tanker and a maritime aircraft to fly west in formation, do the refuelling, probably in daylight, and then have the maritime aircraft come off task with enough fuel to recover to base without a further refuel. With all the complication, plus the likelihood of the two losing contact outbound in bad weather, it does not seem practical.
oxenos is online now  
Old 27th Apr 2017, 14:47
  #10515 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: AndyCappLand
Age: 98
Posts: 7,646
Chugalug (#10508) has set a hare-and-a-half running here ! I stand in awe of the geopolitcal flights of fancy already mooted, and really cannot add anything useful to the pot.

But it is true that there was a strong undercurrent of "treating with the enemy" in the air during the run-up to, and in the early years of the war. Von Ribbentrop was (according to the popular Press) lionised by London society hostesses (contrary to Wiki's general opinion of him), Edward VII and some members of the aristocracy were known to have been sympathetic to the German cause; and the Chamberlain/Halifax Government would almost certainly have capitulated after what Chugalug called the "Dunkirk Miracle" * but for the intervention of Winston Churchill - for whom the Free World should be eternally grateful.
...damning letters from Germany immediately after the war, which have been secured at Windsor Castle ever since...
A fire at Windsor Castle sounds like a good idea ? .... now I come to think of it ....

* (It is my belief - shared by many at the time - that Hitler allowed the 300,000 to escape [ordering Guderian to halt his tanks to enable them to do so], reasoning that we had no option then but to sue for peace on any terms, and meanwhile he couldn't be bothered to have to house and feed such a large number of prisoners).

A curious sideline: it was suggested that the RAF would never bomb Hanover - because George VI was of the line of Hanoverian Kings ! (in fact, we bombed the place flat, like everywhere else).

My "What If ?"s are on a much smaller scale. What if the Japanese 28th Army Commander in Arakan had set his Oscars on our "boxes" of VVs, which were daily unearthing his defensive bunkers in his '43/'44 retreat ? We wouldn't have stood a chance (all the Hurricane pilots who'd done "fighter affiliation" training exercises with us told us so). ..... bye-bye Danny and "Stew" !

Why didn't he - it was such an obvious thing to do ! But he didn't. .... What if Truman had said "No" to the Hiroshima Bomb ? .... You can go on for ever.

Danny.

PS: Quite off-Thread - but if you're one of the few who've never seen BBC1's "Peter Kay's Car Share", do so on iPlayer ASAP !

Last edited by Danny42C; 27th Apr 2017 at 15:25. Reason: Spacing and Add PS.
Danny42C is offline  
Old 27th Apr 2017, 16:17
  #10516 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 4,676
but would Germany and/or Japan actually have had sufficient manpower and materiel to occupy successfully such huge swathes of territory?
They would have done what the British had done so successfully, recruited local manpower. There was a fairly large Indian contingent in the Japanese army in Malaya and , given time they would have expanded this. With an easier time in Burma, because the British having severe troubles in the Middle East owing to the increased volume of German soldiers because of the collapse of the USSR, the Japanese would not have to have been so draconian with the civilian population therefore encouraging them to join an Asian Co-operative Army.

America would have stayed out of it. Roosevelt had assisted the UK effectively as a one man band and as another election was coming up the American population almost certainly would have elected a President who presented a 'no interference America First' policy. Their worries about the Japanese threatening the Philippines would have been settled by an arrangement where the USA became responsible for Australasia.

Then somebody would have invented the atom bomb.

Last edited by Fareastdriver; 27th Apr 2017 at 18:58.
Fareastdriver is offline  
Old 27th Apr 2017, 22:47
  #10517 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: West Sussex
Age: 78
Posts: 4,202
Danny, sorry about the hare. At a word it will be swiftly despatched, skinned, and served up as stew. The fur should come in handy for lining out your boots jungle aircrew as well. As you say geopolitics aren't really our game. I was intending for aviation related what ifs, and pulse 1 got the idea nicely with his maritime refuelling query. It illustrates the limitations of WWII air navigation as well as air refuelling that the air gap was closed not by long range reconnaissance aircraft but rather by short range ones flying from escort carriers.

It was those very same limitations, of navigation and range that makes Hess's flight so remarkable. His aircraft crashed within 12 miles of his intended landing site which was now blacked out, and would have been less if he had not been delayed by the difficulty of abandoning it. He may have been at the top of the Nazi hierarchy, but he must also have been a damned good pilot!
Chugalug2 is offline  
Old 28th Apr 2017, 06:51
  #10518 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Lost, but often Indonesia
Posts: 597
Whatever Hess's intentions were, it seems a travesty of justice to lock him up in Spandau prison for 40 plus years. He had obviously decided to abandon the Reich (High Treason) at great risk to himself and one would have to assume he had some good intentions in mind?Presumably he'd decided by May 1941 things were never going to end well with Hitler running the show and something drastic had to be done..? Shame we'll never know..
Octane is offline  
Old 28th Apr 2017, 09:34
  #10519 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: East Anglia
Posts: 691
Further to Pulse1's "what if...", AAR would surely have turned the Mitchell(?) raid on Tokyo into the forerunner of the BlackBuck and put mainland Japan in greater jeopardy. However, would this in itself have been enough to sway the tenacity of the Imperial hierarchy to pursue the war come what may?


P.S. Great to have you and your laptop back firing on all four Danny!
FantomZorbin is offline  
Old 28th Apr 2017, 14:56
  #10520 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: AndyCappLand
Age: 98
Posts: 7,646
Chugalug (#10519),

No apology needed for the release of this hare, m'dear chap ! These "hares" have always been the life-blood of this incomparable Thread, and the more of them that are running, the more interesting it gets.

Thank you for the links in your (#19508), particularly for the second "Der Spiegel" article.

As for Hess's flight, and wartime air navigation in general, I've always stood in awe of our Bomber Command navigators, who could fly for hours in all weathers over a blacked-out Europe, with only a sketchy idea of the en-route winds, no external aids (until Gee-H came in late-on), and just a bubble sextant, in an aircraft which was constantly 'weaving' to dodge flak and night-fighters - and still wind up within an average of 5 miles error ! It was a bloomin' miracle every time IMHO.

I get annoyed with the tender-hearted souls who now castigate them for not "confining themselves to military objetives". What does a "military objective" look like over a blacked-out city ? How about a black cat in a coal-hole at midnight ? Their hearts may be in the right place - it's their heads that need looking at.

As for my own navigational abilities, they were no more than would be expected of any good Boy Scout (ie simple D/R and map-reading). The last F.414A (22/9/42 after OCU) had a little rubber stamp: "Has he shown aptitude as a pilot/navigator - yes". Mind you, it also said "Ability in air gunnery - Average" (I hadn't fired a single aimed shot on the Course !) Thereafter nobody seemed to be particularly worried whether I could navigate or not (so long as I could get there and come back).

'''''''''''''''''''''''

Octane (#10520),

I don't think we can take it that Hess was necessarily "running away" from Hitler. More likely he was acting in concert with him to sound out the possibility of an "armistice" with Britain along the lines I suggested in (#10509). As you say, we'll never know.

Cheers, both, Danny.
Danny42C is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.