Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II
"That was Yesterday - It's All Been Changed !"
A site dedicated to the Mosquito's history touches on those in India, and Yelahanka in particular here:
Phorum :: WWW.MOSSIE.ORG Discussion Forum :: Far East
Little is said in Wikki of the problems that you mention, Danny, other than to say :
In November 1944, several crashes occurred in the Far East. At first, it was thought these were as a result of wing structure failures. The casein glue, it was said, cracked when exposed to extreme heat. This caused the upper surfaces to "lift" from the main spar. During the ensuing investigation, it was concluded that there were construction defects found at two plants, Hatfield and Coventry, where it was found that the "Standard of glueing...left much to be desired”.[74] However, the main reason for the failures, the Air Ministry concluded on 1 January 1945, was the weather conditions in Asia, thereby endorsing the view of Major Hereward de Havilland, leading the investigation. To solve the problem, a sheet of plywood was set along the span of the wing to seal the entire length of the skin joint along the main spar and the casein glue was replaced by formaldehyde, which was better able to resist deterioration in high humidity conditions.[74]
de Havilland Mosquito - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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In the early 1970s, I used to do boatbuilding. We used formaldehyde "marine" glue exclusively. Stinky stuff, but I've seen wooden rudders come back after several years immersion, broken by stress but with the glued laminations still holding up.
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fredjhh
After a most miserable two weeks in a Rest Home, to give my family a much needed rest from me, I am back home. While away my grandson, in addition to working his vacation, has found my old diaries and 'photos and produced them in a very professional form as a book.
Please do not ask for copies. Names I mention may still be alive! It is strictly for my family.
It starts at ITW at Torquay at the same time as RegLe, CliffNemo, Andy42c and (dare I mention it?) Marshal of the RAF Mike Beetham were also awaiting posting for flying training. Apparently I was the only one chosen NOT to go on the Arnold Scheme, so I was trained in the UK and the cause of my initial search. What a joy it has been.
My war ended abruptly in June 1943 when I was shot down and started a new career as a Prisoner of War.
I did fly after the war, - Oxfords and Wellingtons - , but only briefly. I knew that my colour blindness would catch me up.
Keep up the good work.
Fredjhh
Please do not ask for copies. Names I mention may still be alive! It is strictly for my family.
It starts at ITW at Torquay at the same time as RegLe, CliffNemo, Andy42c and (dare I mention it?) Marshal of the RAF Mike Beetham were also awaiting posting for flying training. Apparently I was the only one chosen NOT to go on the Arnold Scheme, so I was trained in the UK and the cause of my initial search. What a joy it has been.
My war ended abruptly in June 1943 when I was shot down and started a new career as a Prisoner of War.
I did fly after the war, - Oxfords and Wellingtons - , but only briefly. I knew that my colour blindness would catch me up.
Keep up the good work.
Fredjhh
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Sticky stuffs.
Chugalug,
Thank you again, for the Wiki quotation and the links. Generally, Wiki has it about right (in the very few subjects I know something about !), but I beg to differ about "November 1944" as being the date of the onset.
By then it was all over bar the shouting. I have the exact date (26.10.44) I went down to Yelahanka; it was "problem solved" just as I arrived. Somewhere in Wiki (probably following up 45 Sqdn), it records that their new Mossie C.O. (Wg. Cdr. Harvey Stumm) was killed out there on 13th May '44 (and others, I assume, by the structural failures). These occurrences were common knowledge throughout India by July at the latest, IIRC the aircraft were grounded about that time.
You can see how the official record gently air-brushes out six months of inaction ! (during which more lives had been lost). So much for the "Contingency Planning" we were talking about.
Danny.
*****
Yamagata Ken,
Thank you for the information about the glues. I'd been wondering about these myself. I knew that all this must have been years before the introduction of the two-part resin glues, but had not thought of casein glue. (The "Bodger's Friend" - spoken by one whose forays in to woodwork were strictly all dowel - if you make a mess, saw it off flush and start again !)
I'd pictured the DH woodworkers with the pots of horses-hoof stuff I knew so well, (on the red-hot workshop stove of my old cabinet-maker grandad, where a six-year old lad spent happy hours getting under his feet among the shavings, sawdust and offcuts which we fed into the stove - 'Elf 'n Safety', were wert thou ?) I can smell the stuff now - but it did the job very well indeed.
Danny
*****
Fred,
Grand to hear from you ! You must have been "especially chosen" (as the con-merchant's letters we used to get said) to stay at home for training, for, as far as I can see, all the world and his dog were bundled off to the States or Canada in 1941. It is a mark of Honour for you that you were retained !
"No names, no pack-drill" ! I'm with you all the way there. But please get your grandson to put all the non-actionable stuff he's got onto this Thread for you, if he has time. All babies of his generation are born with a Ph.D in I.T.
He'll have a dictaphone. Tell him all you remember about your P.O.W. days (and I haven't forgotten your throwaway line ".....was on the run for six weeks......" ) Give !
Happy (?) Days,
God bless,
Danny.
Thank you again, for the Wiki quotation and the links. Generally, Wiki has it about right (in the very few subjects I know something about !), but I beg to differ about "November 1944" as being the date of the onset.
By then it was all over bar the shouting. I have the exact date (26.10.44) I went down to Yelahanka; it was "problem solved" just as I arrived. Somewhere in Wiki (probably following up 45 Sqdn), it records that their new Mossie C.O. (Wg. Cdr. Harvey Stumm) was killed out there on 13th May '44 (and others, I assume, by the structural failures). These occurrences were common knowledge throughout India by July at the latest, IIRC the aircraft were grounded about that time.
You can see how the official record gently air-brushes out six months of inaction ! (during which more lives had been lost). So much for the "Contingency Planning" we were talking about.
Danny.
*****
Yamagata Ken,
Thank you for the information about the glues. I'd been wondering about these myself. I knew that all this must have been years before the introduction of the two-part resin glues, but had not thought of casein glue. (The "Bodger's Friend" - spoken by one whose forays in to woodwork were strictly all dowel - if you make a mess, saw it off flush and start again !)
I'd pictured the DH woodworkers with the pots of horses-hoof stuff I knew so well, (on the red-hot workshop stove of my old cabinet-maker grandad, where a six-year old lad spent happy hours getting under his feet among the shavings, sawdust and offcuts which we fed into the stove - 'Elf 'n Safety', were wert thou ?) I can smell the stuff now - but it did the job very well indeed.
Danny
*****
Fred,
Grand to hear from you ! You must have been "especially chosen" (as the con-merchant's letters we used to get said) to stay at home for training, for, as far as I can see, all the world and his dog were bundled off to the States or Canada in 1941. It is a mark of Honour for you that you were retained !
"No names, no pack-drill" ! I'm with you all the way there. But please get your grandson to put all the non-actionable stuff he's got onto this Thread for you, if he has time. All babies of his generation are born with a Ph.D in I.T.
He'll have a dictaphone. Tell him all you remember about your P.O.W. days (and I haven't forgotten your throwaway line ".....was on the run for six weeks......" ) Give !
Happy (?) Days,
God bless,
Danny.
Last edited by Danny42C; 2nd Sep 2012 at 23:45. Reason: Spelling Errors
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A glue side track
My only qualification for posting here is that I tried (but failed) to get Regle's ukulele adjusted to make it easier to play, and I make ukuleles as well as flying gliders.
The hot glue pots which Danny remembers were hide glue - fine for furniture and musical instruments but not suitable for aircraft, as they release with damp and heat. Leaving a uke or guitar in a car on a hot day may well cause glue failure. Not much used by De Havilland I'd guess.
Casein glue is based on milk proteins, so I'm not surprised it didn't work well in India. There are still some 1930s gliders flying, held together with casein glue, but the joints get inspected very regularly!
For those interested in woodworking the Mosquito construction is quite a miracle, and shows how good wood is for making aircraft (so long as the glue holds
).
The hot glue pots which Danny remembers were hide glue - fine for furniture and musical instruments but not suitable for aircraft, as they release with damp and heat. Leaving a uke or guitar in a car on a hot day may well cause glue failure. Not much used by De Havilland I'd guess.
Casein glue is based on milk proteins, so I'm not surprised it didn't work well in India. There are still some 1930s gliders flying, held together with casein glue, but the joints get inspected very regularly!
For those interested in woodworking the Mosquito construction is quite a miracle, and shows how good wood is for making aircraft (so long as the glue holds
).
Last edited by ProfChrisReed; 2nd Sep 2012 at 21:03.
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The Story told to me by an old AID inspector, that the first Australian built Mossie to crash was traced to the fact that for some reason the first lot of plywood, came wrapped in grease proof paper. The end result was that the airplane fell apart caused by lack of adhesion by the glue.
Oh how easy it is to be wise in hindsite, but the pressure that must have been on all production staff in those days must have been great.
Regards
Col
Oh how easy it is to be wise in hindsite, but the pressure that must have been on all production staff in those days must have been great.
Regards
Col
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Glue, glorious Glue !
ProfChrisReed,
Another cherished childhood dream demolished - they weren't horses' hooves after all, just a bit of stewed leather that went into the glue-pot !
Ah, well,
Danny
*****
Herkman,
Presumably the same greaseproof paper in which the 'buried' Spitfires are wrapped.
Hope springs eternal, and, as you rightly say, hindsight is fine - so long as you're looking backwards !
Regards to you both,
Danny.
*****
Another cherished childhood dream demolished - they weren't horses' hooves after all, just a bit of stewed leather that went into the glue-pot !
Ah, well,
Danny
*****
Herkman,
Presumably the same greaseproof paper in which the 'buried' Spitfires are wrapped.
Hope springs eternal, and, as you rightly say, hindsight is fine - so long as you're looking backwards !
Regards to you both,
Danny.
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An appeal
Sorry to break your flow Danny, but I just need to check whether there is anyone "listening in" who attended 4 SoTT at St Athan (1939-1945).
We are keen to see if we can establish where certain facilities, such as the parachute training tower, decompression chamber and tethered airframe, were sited.
If anyone can help, please could you contact me.
Regards
Pete ...... back to you Danny
We are keen to see if we can establish where certain facilities, such as the parachute training tower, decompression chamber and tethered airframe, were sited.
If anyone can help, please could you contact me.
Regards
Pete ...... back to you Danny
They did not learn from the experience of the Mosquitos falling apart. The Bristol Sycamore helicopter had a matched set on wooden blades. When they started operating them in Malaya the blades started delaminating for the same reason. Not a good thing to happen to a helicopter.
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Danny's travels resumed, (or Small World Part I *)
(* Just hold that in memory, for Part II will be a long, long way down the line)
So I was marooned in Yelahanka from the end of October until after Christmas. I can't think of anything useful I did there in that time. Curiously, I don't remember finding any other "instructors" down there when I arrived, nor was there any trace of a VV "conversion school". I can only guess that I was the first (and only) unlucky one to have got my marching orders on the very day the policy was changed. And as the Station was already running a short conversion course on the Thunderbolts, it would be a simple matter to add on a VV Flight to that Unit.
Whatever the truth of the matter was, the fact was that I was a "supernumerary" there now, and the life of such an "odd bod" is often not a happy one - in short, you're a dogsbody, on whom is piled all the awkward and unpleasant jobs going. I therefore quickly made an opportunity to visit 225 Group in Bangalore (about 10 miles away). IIRC, they were housed in a requisitioned College of some sort, built in the form of a quadrangle. There I "unofficially" looked in on P.2 to see if they had anything going in my line.
I must have seen something of Bangalore ("The Garden City of the South"), but recall nothing of it, nor do I remember much about Yelahanka except that my basha was exactly in the overshoot line of the main runway; the night flying sessions were nail-biting affairs with the 'Bolts thundering right overhead every minute or so and the unsettling prospect of one coming straight through the basha if something went wrong.
My casual visit to Group paid off at the year end: I was posted to No. 1580 (Calibration) Flight at Cholaveram (Madras). This was the second Madras airfield, the main and much better known one being "St. Thomas's Mount", so called as it was not far from a hill on which popular legend has it that the Apostle Thomas (the "Doubting Thomas", the "Apostle of the Indies") was martyred in the 1st century AD. It was irreverently known as "Tommy's Mount" throughout the Services.
The rest of my time out there would be spent in South India, I would never see Calcutta or the Arakan or smell the scent of tea in the Assam hills again. But the Vengeance was not finished with me yet !
It was the middle of the cool season. Cholaveram was a pleasant place, and Calibration flying is not onerous. Radar was in its infancy in the East; the first experimental units needed "clockwork mice ". We flew on pre-arranged courses and heights, so that the radar operators could compare what they saw on their screens with what was really out there, and find the maximum range and height cover of their equipment. This involved a good deal of flying out over the Bay of Bengal, because at sea there are few "ground returns" to confuse radar operators. Any old aircraft will do the job, and the Vengeance was ideal, being big and slab sided, and so being a good radar reflector.
As well as flying, I collected the job of Mess Secretary. The Secretary was primarily a Treasurer, and this Mess needed a resourceful one. It hadn't been going long, and had not found its financial feet. Our situation was this: at the end of each month we had no food, no stock in the Bar and no money. But the Mess Bills were due, and I'd chase them up. As cash came in, we bought Bar stock, this turned into cash over the Bar, which we then used to buy extra messing items. A Mess draws basic rations, of course, but they are basic. Extra items make them more palatable, and you have to buy these. At the end of the month we'd drunk all the Bar stock, and eaten all the extra food bought with the takings. But the Mess Bills were due.........
In this way we chased solvency, never catching up, always robbing Peter (or at least making him wait) to pay Paul. I became quite good at this juggling - had to be with the PMC breathing down my neck. He'd have to carry the can if it all went wrong ! He was the Station Commander (of course everyone "lived-in" out there), a Wing Commander whose name, I am sorry to say, I cannot quite recall - Morton, Merton, Moreton, Moreland or something like that. Did we have an Accountant Officer? Must have had, I suppose. (is there some rule that an Accountant Officer can't be Mess Sec - for obvious reasons?) for I don't remember lugging cash to and fro from some Bank in Madras (but somebody must have had to do it).
We introduced the "Book-of-Ticket" system. This was very widely used in Messes in India. You have these books locally printed (and obviously serially numbered). The Mess sells them (for Rs 5 or Rs 10) over the Bar. They have tear-out tickets for Rs1, As 8 and As 4 (Rs 1=As 16). The tickets (torn from a book, loose tickets were not acceptable; it was instant dismissal for any Barman who did so), paid for drinks and casual meals. The idea was gold-plated every way you looked at it.
The Mess got its money up front. Service in the bar was far quicker; you did away with Bar books and possible disputes over Bar bills, cash-handling problems disappeared. As the loose tickets were no use to anyone, it was fraud-proof (or at least difficult). Best of all, casual visitors and postings-out left with part-used books in their pockets - this was clear profit to the Mess.
With this system in place and a 200% mark-up on the spirits which were the only alcoholic things drinkable, it did not take long for the Mess to go into profit; our troubles vanished, the PMC and I shared a sense of satisfaction in a job well done.
So far, so good.
Goodnight, chaps.
Danny42C.
What's well begun........
So I was marooned in Yelahanka from the end of October until after Christmas. I can't think of anything useful I did there in that time. Curiously, I don't remember finding any other "instructors" down there when I arrived, nor was there any trace of a VV "conversion school". I can only guess that I was the first (and only) unlucky one to have got my marching orders on the very day the policy was changed. And as the Station was already running a short conversion course on the Thunderbolts, it would be a simple matter to add on a VV Flight to that Unit.
Whatever the truth of the matter was, the fact was that I was a "supernumerary" there now, and the life of such an "odd bod" is often not a happy one - in short, you're a dogsbody, on whom is piled all the awkward and unpleasant jobs going. I therefore quickly made an opportunity to visit 225 Group in Bangalore (about 10 miles away). IIRC, they were housed in a requisitioned College of some sort, built in the form of a quadrangle. There I "unofficially" looked in on P.2 to see if they had anything going in my line.
I must have seen something of Bangalore ("The Garden City of the South"), but recall nothing of it, nor do I remember much about Yelahanka except that my basha was exactly in the overshoot line of the main runway; the night flying sessions were nail-biting affairs with the 'Bolts thundering right overhead every minute or so and the unsettling prospect of one coming straight through the basha if something went wrong.
My casual visit to Group paid off at the year end: I was posted to No. 1580 (Calibration) Flight at Cholaveram (Madras). This was the second Madras airfield, the main and much better known one being "St. Thomas's Mount", so called as it was not far from a hill on which popular legend has it that the Apostle Thomas (the "Doubting Thomas", the "Apostle of the Indies") was martyred in the 1st century AD. It was irreverently known as "Tommy's Mount" throughout the Services.
The rest of my time out there would be spent in South India, I would never see Calcutta or the Arakan or smell the scent of tea in the Assam hills again. But the Vengeance was not finished with me yet !
It was the middle of the cool season. Cholaveram was a pleasant place, and Calibration flying is not onerous. Radar was in its infancy in the East; the first experimental units needed "clockwork mice ". We flew on pre-arranged courses and heights, so that the radar operators could compare what they saw on their screens with what was really out there, and find the maximum range and height cover of their equipment. This involved a good deal of flying out over the Bay of Bengal, because at sea there are few "ground returns" to confuse radar operators. Any old aircraft will do the job, and the Vengeance was ideal, being big and slab sided, and so being a good radar reflector.
As well as flying, I collected the job of Mess Secretary. The Secretary was primarily a Treasurer, and this Mess needed a resourceful one. It hadn't been going long, and had not found its financial feet. Our situation was this: at the end of each month we had no food, no stock in the Bar and no money. But the Mess Bills were due, and I'd chase them up. As cash came in, we bought Bar stock, this turned into cash over the Bar, which we then used to buy extra messing items. A Mess draws basic rations, of course, but they are basic. Extra items make them more palatable, and you have to buy these. At the end of the month we'd drunk all the Bar stock, and eaten all the extra food bought with the takings. But the Mess Bills were due.........
In this way we chased solvency, never catching up, always robbing Peter (or at least making him wait) to pay Paul. I became quite good at this juggling - had to be with the PMC breathing down my neck. He'd have to carry the can if it all went wrong ! He was the Station Commander (of course everyone "lived-in" out there), a Wing Commander whose name, I am sorry to say, I cannot quite recall - Morton, Merton, Moreton, Moreland or something like that. Did we have an Accountant Officer? Must have had, I suppose. (is there some rule that an Accountant Officer can't be Mess Sec - for obvious reasons?) for I don't remember lugging cash to and fro from some Bank in Madras (but somebody must have had to do it).
We introduced the "Book-of-Ticket" system. This was very widely used in Messes in India. You have these books locally printed (and obviously serially numbered). The Mess sells them (for Rs 5 or Rs 10) over the Bar. They have tear-out tickets for Rs1, As 8 and As 4 (Rs 1=As 16). The tickets (torn from a book, loose tickets were not acceptable; it was instant dismissal for any Barman who did so), paid for drinks and casual meals. The idea was gold-plated every way you looked at it.
The Mess got its money up front. Service in the bar was far quicker; you did away with Bar books and possible disputes over Bar bills, cash-handling problems disappeared. As the loose tickets were no use to anyone, it was fraud-proof (or at least difficult). Best of all, casual visitors and postings-out left with part-used books in their pockets - this was clear profit to the Mess.
With this system in place and a 200% mark-up on the spirits which were the only alcoholic things drinkable, it did not take long for the Mess to go into profit; our troubles vanished, the PMC and I shared a sense of satisfaction in a job well done.
So far, so good.
Goodnight, chaps.
Danny42C.
What's well begun........
Last edited by Danny42C; 4th Sep 2012 at 13:35. Reason: Missed a word out !
A bit late in the reply, I had to chat to somebody about it, but to clear up a question.
It's matter of construction. A Merlin is a twin block water cooled engine and if it starts to wear out because of dust ingestion then it has to be rebored or re-lined. This is almost a factory job so if the facility is more than a few hundred miles away then it comes under the heading of 'far too difficult' and is scrapped.
A radial engine is different. It has all the cylinders bolted to a central crankcase so if one goes pearshaped; usually the one behind the CSU; you just change it. New ones come complete with a lapped piston in shopping bag sized boxes to you can sling a dozen or so in the back of a jeep. If some of your pilots keep blundering into trees with nearly new engines you can recover a few pots as spares. Two blokes can do a fourteen pot change in a day, in situ, so dust erosion is not such a problem.
They still use filters. Not fixed wing as they generally operate from concrete and those that operate from dirt do so singly so the dust is blown behind. Helicopters have to use them in those conditions because of compressor erosion. They used to be paper filters like a car engine intake but now they use particle seperators. They are corkscrew shaped bits that force the air to violently spiral and throw out all the crud. The Dyson vacuum cleaner uses the same principle.
They still haven't found out a way of filtering the dust so you can see where you are going.
(Why did our Merlins have to be "tropicalised", while the big American (and British) radials just took it in their stride?)
A radial engine is different. It has all the cylinders bolted to a central crankcase so if one goes pearshaped; usually the one behind the CSU; you just change it. New ones come complete with a lapped piston in shopping bag sized boxes to you can sling a dozen or so in the back of a jeep. If some of your pilots keep blundering into trees with nearly new engines you can recover a few pots as spares. Two blokes can do a fourteen pot change in a day, in situ, so dust erosion is not such a problem.
They still use filters. Not fixed wing as they generally operate from concrete and those that operate from dirt do so singly so the dust is blown behind. Helicopters have to use them in those conditions because of compressor erosion. They used to be paper filters like a car engine intake but now they use particle seperators. They are corkscrew shaped bits that force the air to violently spiral and throw out all the crud. The Dyson vacuum cleaner uses the same principle.
They still haven't found out a way of filtering the dust so you can see where you are going.
Last edited by Fareastdriver; 4th Sep 2012 at 18:05.
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Fascinating stuff fareastdriver. Definitely one of those, "It's pretty obvious if you think about it," explanations!!
Fred - what can I say, but best wishes and thanks for sharing. Keep talking!
Danny - keep it up mate. Marvellous stuff, wish my dad were around to have a chin-wag with you, as you went to many of the same places as him.
Fred - what can I say, but best wishes and thanks for sharing. Keep talking!
Danny - keep it up mate. Marvellous stuff, wish my dad were around to have a chin-wag with you, as you went to many of the same places as him.
Fareastdriver, excellent resume of the pros and cons of inline v radial wear and tear in the tropics. Having had experience of the Bristol Hercules Radials in the Far East I can vouch for the ruggedness and dependability of them. Nowt much that an ignition harness change or an injector flush wouldn't fix was the credo of our Flight Engineers I recall.
As to adhesives used on the Mossie, the later formaldehyde based one used was Aerolite I believe. Contrary to the view expressed here:
Warbird Information Exchange • View topic - DeHavilland Mosquito Glue
I believe it still to be available, if this is the same stuff:
Buy Aerolite 306 Glue Pack from Axminster, fast delivery for the UK
We use it still in the Bluebell Railway carriage works. Excellent stuff, though we haven't operated our trains in the tropics yet!
As to adhesives used on the Mossie, the later formaldehyde based one used was Aerolite I believe. Contrary to the view expressed here:
Warbird Information Exchange • View topic - DeHavilland Mosquito Glue
I believe it still to be available, if this is the same stuff:
Buy Aerolite 306 Glue Pack from Axminster, fast delivery for the UK
We use it still in the Bluebell Railway carriage works. Excellent stuff, though we haven't operated our trains in the tropics yet!
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Posts: n/a
Dust and Glues.
Fareastdriver,
Thanks for your excellent and comprehensive explanation. It just shows, you're never too old to learn ! So that was why the Spits had their svelte lines spoiled by their "double chins" - but our Double Cyclones had to tough it out !
Our singles wouldn't be much troubled by dust on the line, it's true, but we took off singly because the strips weren't wide enough for a pair to be safe. Each chap waited till the dust cloud had thinned so he could see 100 yards ahead, then opened up. One enterprising lad set his aircraft in the centre (so he thought) of the dumb-bell with the D.G. on the rumway heading and set off as soon as the chap in front had vanished in the murk. He was off-centre and soon was hopping along with the port wheel bouncing over the paddy bunds at the side.. He managed to come to a standstill without damage, but did it the normal way after that.
Danny.
*******
Angels,
Thank you for the kind words ! I would have dearly loved to have had a chat with your Dad about the old days. Why did we leave it so long ? Trouble was, it took a decade or more for us oldies to come to terms with the Computer Age (and most of us aren't there yet).
Danny.
******
Chugalug,
Another feast of links for our delectation ! (I'll never get anything done at this rate). I hope the Aerolite is used only for the upholstery of the carriages, otherwise the mind boggles a bit !
Will not travel on the Bluebell Line until I receive your reassurance (only joking).
Thank you all,
Danny.
Thanks for your excellent and comprehensive explanation. It just shows, you're never too old to learn ! So that was why the Spits had their svelte lines spoiled by their "double chins" - but our Double Cyclones had to tough it out !
Our singles wouldn't be much troubled by dust on the line, it's true, but we took off singly because the strips weren't wide enough for a pair to be safe. Each chap waited till the dust cloud had thinned so he could see 100 yards ahead, then opened up. One enterprising lad set his aircraft in the centre (so he thought) of the dumb-bell with the D.G. on the rumway heading and set off as soon as the chap in front had vanished in the murk. He was off-centre and soon was hopping along with the port wheel bouncing over the paddy bunds at the side.. He managed to come to a standstill without damage, but did it the normal way after that.
Danny.
*******
Angels,
Thank you for the kind words ! I would have dearly loved to have had a chat with your Dad about the old days. Why did we leave it so long ? Trouble was, it took a decade or more for us oldies to come to terms with the Computer Age (and most of us aren't there yet).
Danny.
******
Chugalug,
Another feast of links for our delectation ! (I'll never get anything done at this rate). I hope the Aerolite is used only for the upholstery of the carriages, otherwise the mind boggles a bit !
Will not travel on the Bluebell Line until I receive your reassurance (only joking).
Thank you all,
Danny.
Last edited by Danny42C; 11th Sep 2012 at 19:23. Reason: Typo.
Danny I shall try to make this brief as it doesn't concern Military Aviation, let alone WW2 Pilots' Brevets, but will trust in the benevolent largesse of our esteemed moderators, as ever! I'm afraid it goes further than the upholstery (or trimming as we call it in the trade). Indeed that is the one area that I doubt you would find it, as trimmers put their faith in tacks, lots and lots of them!
Many of our vehicles have wooden bodies but the oldest of all had wooden under-frames (chassis in other words). One of the first projects I was involved with was the restoration of a 1913 London Brighton and South Coast Covered or "Box" Van which went on to serve with the Southern Railway before being requisitioned by the Admiralty in WW2 (ah, there's the Military and WW2 connection. We might just have got away with it!) to serve at Chatham Dockyard (the military liked wooden under-frame wagons, less chance of sparks and hence munition explosions). From there it came to the Bluebell but by the time we set out to restore it at the start of the 21st C it was in a poor way. Indeed as it was shunted into the Carriage and Wagon Works Sidings for work to start, one of the two sole bars (the underframe side member on which the body sits and from which the springs and axle boxes hang) gave way. In the end it was clear that all four main underframe timbers would need replacing. No way can you get hardwood baulks of such dimensions these days other than at prohibitive prices so another solution was needed, and that was to laminate together many thinner lengths of Meranti hardwood, glued together with Aerolite. Despite the obvious parallel with the construction of the DH Mosquito we decided against seeing if it would fly, so it now forms part of our Vintage Goods Set as a reminder of the huge importance of rail freight, even in the south.
Bluebell Railway Wagons - LBSCR Box Van
PS All our passenger vehicles run on steel under-frames, Danny, if that re-assures you at all.
Many of our vehicles have wooden bodies but the oldest of all had wooden under-frames (chassis in other words). One of the first projects I was involved with was the restoration of a 1913 London Brighton and South Coast Covered or "Box" Van which went on to serve with the Southern Railway before being requisitioned by the Admiralty in WW2 (ah, there's the Military and WW2 connection. We might just have got away with it!) to serve at Chatham Dockyard (the military liked wooden under-frame wagons, less chance of sparks and hence munition explosions). From there it came to the Bluebell but by the time we set out to restore it at the start of the 21st C it was in a poor way. Indeed as it was shunted into the Carriage and Wagon Works Sidings for work to start, one of the two sole bars (the underframe side member on which the body sits and from which the springs and axle boxes hang) gave way. In the end it was clear that all four main underframe timbers would need replacing. No way can you get hardwood baulks of such dimensions these days other than at prohibitive prices so another solution was needed, and that was to laminate together many thinner lengths of Meranti hardwood, glued together with Aerolite. Despite the obvious parallel with the construction of the DH Mosquito we decided against seeing if it would fly, so it now forms part of our Vintage Goods Set as a reminder of the huge importance of rail freight, even in the south.
Bluebell Railway Wagons - LBSCR Box Van
PS All our passenger vehicles run on steel under-frames, Danny, if that re-assures you at all.
Last edited by Chugalug2; 4th Sep 2012 at 19:59.
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Box ("Parcel") Vans on Bluebell Line.
Chugalug,
Reassurance accepted, my dear sir ! If only I were twenty years younger, would accept your kind offer of a Director's gold watchchain First Class Pass.
(What, you haven't made an offer yet ? How remiss of you !)
I note that when it left Naval Service, they must have left a five-gallon drum of battleship grey inside.
Was in sole charge of a very similar vehicle on a long winter's night in 1955. In it was a coffin (occupied) for which I was the escort. Full story is a long way ahead. May get to it one day.
Danny.
Reassurance accepted, my dear sir ! If only I were twenty years younger, would accept your kind offer of a Director's gold watchchain First Class Pass.
(What, you haven't made an offer yet ? How remiss of you !)
I note that when it left Naval Service, they must have left a five-gallon drum of battleship grey inside.
Was in sole charge of a very similar vehicle on a long winter's night in 1955. In it was a coffin (occupied) for which I was the escort. Full story is a long way ahead. May get to it one day.
Danny.
Whale Grey, if I remember correctly. Each railway company generally painted their goods vehicles grey, but used a different grey to any of the others! Rather reminds me of the meeting of Senior Wehrmacht Generals in a Smith and Jones sketch, each doing a piece to camera as they arrive. One says, "I too am a General, but for some reason that is never properly explained, my uniform is a different grey to any of the others".
There is one thing more tedious than watching the damn stuff dry and that is the prolonged discussion about the livery to outshop a project in. At that stage, as the greatly mourned News of the World used to put it, I make my excuses and leave.
There is one thing more tedious than watching the damn stuff dry and that is the prolonged discussion about the livery to outshop a project in. At that stage, as the greatly mourned News of the World used to put it, I make my excuses and leave.
Last edited by Chugalug2; 5th Sep 2012 at 06:51.
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Danny puts up a Black.
You came across strange aircrew in the war. 1580 Calibration Flight was commanded by (of all things) a Swiss Air Gunner (naturalised British, of course). Freddie Joerin was a collector of Indian silver filigree, delicately worked birds, butterflies and other insects, geometric patterns and the like. These he kept on display on his mossie net (when you're not on the move, your net is simply looped-up over the top on one side during the day).
Curiously, he wasn't at all worried at the chances of theft. His bearer was a Gurkha ex-soldier, who lovingly whetted the edge of his kukri until he could shave with it, and would not look kindly on any local character who might think of nicking his Sahib's little ornaments (ridiculous though he himself might consider them). All the other bearers (local Madrassis) were terrified of him.
Freddie had found a good source of supply in Pondicherry, about a hundred miles down the coast. From time to time, he'd scrounge transport to go down to see what he could find in the bazaar silversmiths there (these would be cheaper and better quality than in the more "touristy" Madras). And he had an ulterior motive.
Pondicherry was still French territory, one of the few remnants of their former colonial empire, which the Raj indulgently allowed to stay as being too small to bother with (later they would get short shrift from an independent India). But then the Tricouleur still hung in the sun outside a sleepy Hotel de Ville. And, more importantly, they still had stocks of pre-war wines and spirits. But only a Frenchman - or someone who looked and sounded exactly like one - had any chance of a bottle. Freddie (French-Swiss-British) filled the bill: we reaped the benefit.
My debut at Cholaveram did not go down too well. Besides our Calibration Flight, there was another Flight of some kind on the field, and for the life of me I can't remember what they did. But to do it they had one Vengeance, among other types. It so happened that a snag on this aircraft had just been fixed. It needed an airtest and their own pilot was away. Could I do the airtest for them? Of course! Now it was a point of honour for the mechanic who had done the repair to fly as a passenger on the subsequent airtest. Not only for the obvious reason, but because the lads did not get many opportunities to fly, and enjoyed those they did.
My chap was keen, I organised a chute and a helmet for him, strapped him in, and off we went. I later found that their driver was non-operational, hadn't many hours on the thing, and was quite happy to get it from A to B straight and level and land. He'd ask no more from an aircraft on test. An operational Squadron pilot, on the other hand, would put a Vengeance through all its paces. After all, the next trip may well be a bombing sortie: if anything's going to fall off, you may as well find out now.
I told my passenger what I intended to do. He was agreeable, so after satisfying myself that the original fault had been fixed, I took it up to 12,000 ft, did a couple of loops and rolls, then finished off with a dive down on my pasenger's Flight HQ. It was a good vertical dive, too, if I say so myself.
Now seven tons of metal screaming straight down on you at 300 mph, the row amplified by the slatted dive brakes and open bomb doors, is enough to make the stoutest heart quail, even if not followed by the thick end of a ton of bombs. (I believe the Stukas used this technique to stampede refugees off the roads in advance of their armour, and they had some sort of siren to make even more noise).
Our old squadron ground crews would take this racket in their stride, and not even bother to look up. But these people weren't so hardened. I don't suppose their Vengeance had ever been dived. It hadn't occurred to me, and if my passenger had thought about it at all, he kept quiet with a wicked grin. I scared the life out of them. Those indoors dived under tables, sending files, ashtrays and glasses of tea flying. In the open, they dropped flat, convinced their last hour had come. Their sweepers, char- and punkah-wallahs ran like rabbits, and it took days to round them up.
I was persona non grata there after that. They chalked up a notice on their crewroom blackboard: "VENGEANCE - NO AEROBATICS, NO VIOLENT DIVES" Then their own chap came back and managed to write it off (he was unhurt). Some wag added: "NO VENGEANCE". They complained to Freddie, but got no change out of him. The Station Commander/PMC reproved me with a broad grin.
(For once, I 've found the relevant entry in my log. My chap was LAC Wells and the Duty was "Air Test for 21 A.P.x." Curiously, the 'x' is not written like this, but as the (lower case) algebraic (double curve) 'x' . There must have been a reason for my doing this, what might it be? 'A.P.' could be "Armament Practice'. What Armament? What Practice? Where Range? What for? - no idea).
It was at Cholaveram that I had my first taste of Court Martial procedure as an Officer under Instruction. I think you had to have attended two Courts in this capacity before you could be turned loose as a member of a real one. There were three of us trainees and it was a bizarre case.
Some miles South lay Redhills lake, an attractive spot and quite a size, on which floated a mixed Squadron of Sunderlands and Catalinas. These flew long anti-submarine patrols over the Indian Ocean. The accused was a Warrant Officer, a Flight Engineer on one of the Catalinas. They'd been out for several hours; nothing had been seen, and frankly, nothing much was expected.
There'd been very little submarine activity for weeks. But of course you still have to show willing and keep looking. Our man was bored stiff. So was the rest of the crew for that matter , but he was in a position to do something about it. (Don't miss next Gripping Episode).
Good afternoon all, (makes a bit of a change!)
Danny42C.
Natives seem a bit restless tonight, Carruthers
Curiously, he wasn't at all worried at the chances of theft. His bearer was a Gurkha ex-soldier, who lovingly whetted the edge of his kukri until he could shave with it, and would not look kindly on any local character who might think of nicking his Sahib's little ornaments (ridiculous though he himself might consider them). All the other bearers (local Madrassis) were terrified of him.
Freddie had found a good source of supply in Pondicherry, about a hundred miles down the coast. From time to time, he'd scrounge transport to go down to see what he could find in the bazaar silversmiths there (these would be cheaper and better quality than in the more "touristy" Madras). And he had an ulterior motive.
Pondicherry was still French territory, one of the few remnants of their former colonial empire, which the Raj indulgently allowed to stay as being too small to bother with (later they would get short shrift from an independent India). But then the Tricouleur still hung in the sun outside a sleepy Hotel de Ville. And, more importantly, they still had stocks of pre-war wines and spirits. But only a Frenchman - or someone who looked and sounded exactly like one - had any chance of a bottle. Freddie (French-Swiss-British) filled the bill: we reaped the benefit.
My debut at Cholaveram did not go down too well. Besides our Calibration Flight, there was another Flight of some kind on the field, and for the life of me I can't remember what they did. But to do it they had one Vengeance, among other types. It so happened that a snag on this aircraft had just been fixed. It needed an airtest and their own pilot was away. Could I do the airtest for them? Of course! Now it was a point of honour for the mechanic who had done the repair to fly as a passenger on the subsequent airtest. Not only for the obvious reason, but because the lads did not get many opportunities to fly, and enjoyed those they did.
My chap was keen, I organised a chute and a helmet for him, strapped him in, and off we went. I later found that their driver was non-operational, hadn't many hours on the thing, and was quite happy to get it from A to B straight and level and land. He'd ask no more from an aircraft on test. An operational Squadron pilot, on the other hand, would put a Vengeance through all its paces. After all, the next trip may well be a bombing sortie: if anything's going to fall off, you may as well find out now.
I told my passenger what I intended to do. He was agreeable, so after satisfying myself that the original fault had been fixed, I took it up to 12,000 ft, did a couple of loops and rolls, then finished off with a dive down on my pasenger's Flight HQ. It was a good vertical dive, too, if I say so myself.
Now seven tons of metal screaming straight down on you at 300 mph, the row amplified by the slatted dive brakes and open bomb doors, is enough to make the stoutest heart quail, even if not followed by the thick end of a ton of bombs. (I believe the Stukas used this technique to stampede refugees off the roads in advance of their armour, and they had some sort of siren to make even more noise).
Our old squadron ground crews would take this racket in their stride, and not even bother to look up. But these people weren't so hardened. I don't suppose their Vengeance had ever been dived. It hadn't occurred to me, and if my passenger had thought about it at all, he kept quiet with a wicked grin. I scared the life out of them. Those indoors dived under tables, sending files, ashtrays and glasses of tea flying. In the open, they dropped flat, convinced their last hour had come. Their sweepers, char- and punkah-wallahs ran like rabbits, and it took days to round them up.
I was persona non grata there after that. They chalked up a notice on their crewroom blackboard: "VENGEANCE - NO AEROBATICS, NO VIOLENT DIVES" Then their own chap came back and managed to write it off (he was unhurt). Some wag added: "NO VENGEANCE". They complained to Freddie, but got no change out of him. The Station Commander/PMC reproved me with a broad grin.
(For once, I 've found the relevant entry in my log. My chap was LAC Wells and the Duty was "Air Test for 21 A.P.x." Curiously, the 'x' is not written like this, but as the (lower case) algebraic (double curve) 'x' . There must have been a reason for my doing this, what might it be? 'A.P.' could be "Armament Practice'. What Armament? What Practice? Where Range? What for? - no idea).
It was at Cholaveram that I had my first taste of Court Martial procedure as an Officer under Instruction. I think you had to have attended two Courts in this capacity before you could be turned loose as a member of a real one. There were three of us trainees and it was a bizarre case.
Some miles South lay Redhills lake, an attractive spot and quite a size, on which floated a mixed Squadron of Sunderlands and Catalinas. These flew long anti-submarine patrols over the Indian Ocean. The accused was a Warrant Officer, a Flight Engineer on one of the Catalinas. They'd been out for several hours; nothing had been seen, and frankly, nothing much was expected.
There'd been very little submarine activity for weeks. But of course you still have to show willing and keep looking. Our man was bored stiff. So was the rest of the crew for that matter , but he was in a position to do something about it. (Don't miss next Gripping Episode).
Good afternoon all, (makes a bit of a change!)
Danny42C.
Natives seem a bit restless tonight, Carruthers
Last edited by Danny42C; 12th Jul 2016 at 20:25. Reason: For "North" read "South" (well there is a difference).
Danny, I'm trying to keep up with your various postings on Google Maps:
Google Maps
Many of the places you name have been renamed of course, but the beauty of it is that Google still accepts the Anglicised version and plonks you down somewhere with a completely different identity. Try it. Drag yourself across the world until it gets you to Southern India. Then enter Cholaveram into the search box and it asks very politely, "Do you mean Cholavarum?", click on that and you arrive just outside Chennai, which is of course Madras. The two airfields are clearly there, just as you say. Enter Redhills Lake and we go to Puzhal Lake, close to Cholaveram all right, but to the south of it, not north. Is that right, Danny? It seems to fit the bill size wise, as it would need to with Sunderlands and Catalinas operating from it..
Ref your cryptic logbook entry, could "Air Test for 21 APx" be the name of the unit that you terrified and whose Vengeance it was? Only a guess but if it was a different outfit to yours wouldn't you identify it as such? Still no idea what it stood for of course.
Edited to add I think they were called 21 Armament Practice Camp (you were right!) as that unit was at RAF Cholavaram along with 1580 Calibration Flight, here:
Stations-C
Google Maps
Many of the places you name have been renamed of course, but the beauty of it is that Google still accepts the Anglicised version and plonks you down somewhere with a completely different identity. Try it. Drag yourself across the world until it gets you to Southern India. Then enter Cholaveram into the search box and it asks very politely, "Do you mean Cholavarum?", click on that and you arrive just outside Chennai, which is of course Madras. The two airfields are clearly there, just as you say. Enter Redhills Lake and we go to Puzhal Lake, close to Cholaveram all right, but to the south of it, not north. Is that right, Danny? It seems to fit the bill size wise, as it would need to with Sunderlands and Catalinas operating from it..
Ref your cryptic logbook entry, could "Air Test for 21 APx" be the name of the unit that you terrified and whose Vengeance it was? Only a guess but if it was a different outfit to yours wouldn't you identify it as such? Still no idea what it stood for of course.
Edited to add I think they were called 21 Armament Practice Camp (you were right!) as that unit was at RAF Cholavaram along with 1580 Calibration Flight, here:
Stations-C
Last edited by Chugalug2; 5th Sep 2012 at 20:47. Reason: No 21 Armament Practice Camp (23 Sep 1944 - 18 Jun 1945)