Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II
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Gaining an RAF pilots brevet in WW2
Chugalag--I appreciate your suggestion to slow down and recognise my inputs have been over enthusiastic in length and frequency,
Just before I read your comment I was checking the next long segment --- fortunately I hit the wrong button and, it appears, lost it all!
Danny 42c---After reading of your engine failure and rapid descent I think it should be Lucky Danny---but then WE who are still here are all lucky while too many were not so fortunate.
Just before I read your comment I was checking the next long segment --- fortunately I hit the wrong button and, it appears, lost it all!
Danny 42c---After reading of your engine failure and rapid descent I think it should be Lucky Danny---but then WE who are still here are all lucky while too many were not so fortunate.
Last edited by DFCP; 6th Aug 2012 at 19:18. Reason: Spelling
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Gaining a Brevet in WW2
DFCP,
Timidly, I must second Chugalug's suggestion to space it out a bit (I'm only a third way through on adding my two-cents worth in commentary on your #2867).
Hit wrong button - lost Post! It seems to happen to everybody when they start. Fareastdriver (#2307) and Chugalug (#2310) helped me when I had just crawled out of my pram (only six months ago - how time flies!)
Solution is to draft elsewhere (I like Notepad - wider page than Wordpad). There's no formatting, but you can easily do that at the end when you've pasted it on the PPRuNe reply sheet.
Draft on Notepad (make sure you save it, or that will do the dirty on you, too). Copy and paste onto PPRune - then that can do its worst, and you can always try again, you've lost nothing. (And you've got a complete File of your Posts to refer to).
Of course, if you're a plutocrat with Word (or a postgraduate in Computer Science), please ignore this attempt to teach Grandmother how to suck eggs!
Best of luck!
Danny.
Timidly, I must second Chugalug's suggestion to space it out a bit (I'm only a third way through on adding my two-cents worth in commentary on your #2867).
Hit wrong button - lost Post! It seems to happen to everybody when they start. Fareastdriver (#2307) and Chugalug (#2310) helped me when I had just crawled out of my pram (only six months ago - how time flies!)
Solution is to draft elsewhere (I like Notepad - wider page than Wordpad). There's no formatting, but you can easily do that at the end when you've pasted it on the PPRuNe reply sheet.
Draft on Notepad (make sure you save it, or that will do the dirty on you, too). Copy and paste onto PPRune - then that can do its worst, and you can always try again, you've lost nothing. (And you've got a complete File of your Posts to refer to).
Of course, if you're a plutocrat with Word (or a postgraduate in Computer Science), please ignore this attempt to teach Grandmother how to suck eggs!
Best of luck!
Danny.
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Gaining an RAF Pilot's Brevet in WW2
DFCP,
Your last Post (#2867) chimes with so many of my memories that I hardly know where to start.
Quoting from that Post:
........"training at the US base in Phoenix until VJ Day---but I believe training then stopped--almost in mid air".........
The last BFTS remained open to November '44, but it is not clear what my Source means. If the last Course started then they'd not finish till May '45; but there'd still be three months to VJ Day.
......."allowance for ex service people of around 200 pounds and all fees were paid by HMG".........
In '46, on release, I found myself running a Ministry of Labour "Resettlement Advice Centre". Much of the work involved these Educational Grants, and they were surprisingly generous. Any ex-serviceman who could reasonably claim that, but for the War, he would have gone on to University could, if he could now secure the offer of a place, be funded to take it up. And you wouldn't starve on £200 p.a. in those days (£5,000 now). Many a family was brought up on less.
Not surprisingly this Scheme proved very popular. For in practice it meant that any boy who had a matriculation from school and then gone straight into the Forces, could claim. I processed many such cases, well knowing that, of every ten young men in front of me, nine would, in former days, been perfectly content with an office job in a Bank or the Civil Service like mine, and never dreamt of University.
But it is hard to prove a negative. Who knows what might have happened six years ago? You had to take their word for it. Years later I had a colleague on a Squadron who'd neatly carried this one stage forward. Leaving the RAF in '46, he'd taken a degree under this scheme, then applied to the RAF for a graduate PC. He got it, retired a Wing Commander and died a few years ago.
....."by 1951......one of my fellow students, PMR Walton had just become CO of 605 at Honiley"......
Hadn't he done well ! As you started in '44, he must have gone through training, got commissioned and made Squadron Leader in seven years, and that's good going in anybody's book. Moreover a command of an Auxiliary Squadron was a "career post", as were those of the (RAF) Adjutant and Training Officer. I was at Thornaby from '51-'54 alongside 608 Squadron, their Training Officer was "Mike" Beavis, who would be destined for greater things.
Curiously, the lesser members of the Auxiliary family had R.Aux.A.F. C.O.s, our Regiment had a S/Ldr. and the Fighter Control Unit (where I was the Adj), a Wing Commander (for no discernable reason).
......."I graduated August 29th, (1951?) I now had 418 hours AND an RAF pilots brevet!"......
Now that's doing it the hard way - they should have given you two brevets !
......."interview with one of the Atcherleys"......
It would have been "Batchy".
......."No one had briefed me really and I tried a loop at 30,000 ft----I don't recall exactly what happened but it sort of fluttered down until I came to......
Tried that myself one day. Got round all right, but on the way down stick started "snatching", realised I was in first (and last!) Vampire to go supersonic, (got the brakes out in time).
......"The only other problem I had was loss of oxygen at height but my wing man took charge and guided me down"..........
You were lucky to recognise the symptons and to have enough "mind" left to be able to tell him and stick with him !
......."On a more amusing note, if we flew a Sunday am we near Daventry one got heavenly organ music on our radio--this maybe at 30,000 ft over cloud"..........
I remember a similar experience over the West Country in a Meteor 4 in '54 - I was trying to get it up to 40,000 ft, but don't think I made it. Can't remember what frequency I was on (but, now I come to think of it, it was just a matter of Stud A or Stud D, wasn't it ?)
......"While we flew week ends it was possible to fly during the week though it was more likely that only a Harvard would be available"........
When I was at Thornaby, it was the other way round (608 always seemed to have a Vampire to spare during the week - that is, the "Auxiliary Week" (Wednesday to Friday), Saturday and Sunday the Auxiliaries had them, Monday and Tuesday were our "Auxiliary Weekend" - luckily we had a Harvard and a Tiger, usually one or both were available
......"practice interceptions ,QGH ? letdowns"......
Yup: "QGH, GCA and Bar !" (and I bet you tormented poor ATC with "Speechless/No Compass/No Gyro/ Double Flame-outs!")
......"Sgt Pilot caught a wing tip on take off"......
Lucky. My instructor at Driffield in early '50, P2 Willis, did that, cartwheeled and that was that.
Last saw Takali in '91, out of the window of a 320 going into Luqa. Think it was partly built over even then (I never flew from Malta).
Moderator will have our guts for garters!,
Goodnight, Danny.
Your last Post (#2867) chimes with so many of my memories that I hardly know where to start.
Quoting from that Post:
........"training at the US base in Phoenix until VJ Day---but I believe training then stopped--almost in mid air".........
The last BFTS remained open to November '44, but it is not clear what my Source means. If the last Course started then they'd not finish till May '45; but there'd still be three months to VJ Day.
......."allowance for ex service people of around 200 pounds and all fees were paid by HMG".........
In '46, on release, I found myself running a Ministry of Labour "Resettlement Advice Centre". Much of the work involved these Educational Grants, and they were surprisingly generous. Any ex-serviceman who could reasonably claim that, but for the War, he would have gone on to University could, if he could now secure the offer of a place, be funded to take it up. And you wouldn't starve on £200 p.a. in those days (£5,000 now). Many a family was brought up on less.
Not surprisingly this Scheme proved very popular. For in practice it meant that any boy who had a matriculation from school and then gone straight into the Forces, could claim. I processed many such cases, well knowing that, of every ten young men in front of me, nine would, in former days, been perfectly content with an office job in a Bank or the Civil Service like mine, and never dreamt of University.
But it is hard to prove a negative. Who knows what might have happened six years ago? You had to take their word for it. Years later I had a colleague on a Squadron who'd neatly carried this one stage forward. Leaving the RAF in '46, he'd taken a degree under this scheme, then applied to the RAF for a graduate PC. He got it, retired a Wing Commander and died a few years ago.
....."by 1951......one of my fellow students, PMR Walton had just become CO of 605 at Honiley"......
Hadn't he done well ! As you started in '44, he must have gone through training, got commissioned and made Squadron Leader in seven years, and that's good going in anybody's book. Moreover a command of an Auxiliary Squadron was a "career post", as were those of the (RAF) Adjutant and Training Officer. I was at Thornaby from '51-'54 alongside 608 Squadron, their Training Officer was "Mike" Beavis, who would be destined for greater things.
Curiously, the lesser members of the Auxiliary family had R.Aux.A.F. C.O.s, our Regiment had a S/Ldr. and the Fighter Control Unit (where I was the Adj), a Wing Commander (for no discernable reason).
......."I graduated August 29th, (1951?) I now had 418 hours AND an RAF pilots brevet!"......
Now that's doing it the hard way - they should have given you two brevets !
......."interview with one of the Atcherleys"......
It would have been "Batchy".
......."No one had briefed me really and I tried a loop at 30,000 ft----I don't recall exactly what happened but it sort of fluttered down until I came to......
Tried that myself one day. Got round all right, but on the way down stick started "snatching", realised I was in first (and last!) Vampire to go supersonic, (got the brakes out in time).
......"The only other problem I had was loss of oxygen at height but my wing man took charge and guided me down"..........
You were lucky to recognise the symptons and to have enough "mind" left to be able to tell him and stick with him !
......."On a more amusing note, if we flew a Sunday am we near Daventry one got heavenly organ music on our radio--this maybe at 30,000 ft over cloud"..........
I remember a similar experience over the West Country in a Meteor 4 in '54 - I was trying to get it up to 40,000 ft, but don't think I made it. Can't remember what frequency I was on (but, now I come to think of it, it was just a matter of Stud A or Stud D, wasn't it ?)
......"While we flew week ends it was possible to fly during the week though it was more likely that only a Harvard would be available"........
When I was at Thornaby, it was the other way round (608 always seemed to have a Vampire to spare during the week - that is, the "Auxiliary Week" (Wednesday to Friday), Saturday and Sunday the Auxiliaries had them, Monday and Tuesday were our "Auxiliary Weekend" - luckily we had a Harvard and a Tiger, usually one or both were available
......"practice interceptions ,QGH ? letdowns"......
Yup: "QGH, GCA and Bar !" (and I bet you tormented poor ATC with "Speechless/No Compass/No Gyro/ Double Flame-outs!")
......"Sgt Pilot caught a wing tip on take off"......
Lucky. My instructor at Driffield in early '50, P2 Willis, did that, cartwheeled and that was that.
Last saw Takali in '91, out of the window of a 320 going into Luqa. Think it was partly built over even then (I never flew from Malta).
Moderator will have our guts for garters!,
Goodnight, Danny.
Last edited by Danny42C; 8th Aug 2012 at 13:17. Reason: Typo.
Did you know my Dad at Thornaby?
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Ken Crossley 608 51- 53 ATCO/SATCO
Hi Danny
Dad was with 608 from 51 - 53 as ATCO/SATCO, daytime job was ATCO with Airwork at Usworth
He was an AG in WWII attached to 31/34 SAAF in Italy
When Airwork folded he went out to East Africa with EA DCA
PZULBA - Out of Africa (Retired)
Apologies to rest on intrusion into this Brilliant thread
Dad was with 608 from 51 - 53 as ATCO/SATCO, daytime job was ATCO with Airwork at Usworth
He was an AG in WWII attached to 31/34 SAAF in Italy
When Airwork folded he went out to East Africa with EA DCA
PZULBA - Out of Africa (Retired)
Apologies to rest on intrusion into this Brilliant thread
Remember the immense HF antennas near Daventry-possibly the source for the music. Think they were used by the BBC world service but stand to be corrected.
Re the Vanguard prang - definitely a crash in the area due to the EDF basic power transmission frequency being the same as a beacon but could have been another set of victims - there were so many in those days.
Re the Vanguard prang - definitely a crash in the area due to the EDF basic power transmission frequency being the same as a beacon but could have been another set of victims - there were so many in those days.
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Gaining an RAF pilots brevet in ww2
Danny 42c
One of our group told me a couple of years ago how his training in the US---and I,m pretty sure it was at Falcon Field ---ceased abruptly on VJ Day.
608 and Thornaby bring a lot of memories back to a Stockton born boy. I recall seeing my first --two-- Hudsons heading North--to Leuchars?---on Sept 3 or 4th 1939.I can go further back and recall a Rhodesian Hamden pilot crashing at night on rising ground to the S of the field. Didnt see you when I flew in there on March 31 1952 in a Harvard!
605 CO--- maybe 2 or 3 years older than me--he had been an instructor at Church Lawford and joined the Squadron as an Auxiliary after demob and coincident university entry. He took over as CO when his predecessor emigrated to Rhodesia.
FETS---- I know I paid 42 shillings a week for digs and perhaps the grant was less than 200 pounds/year. I regarded it as adequate but not generous--the BUAS pay was an added benefit
One of our group told me a couple of years ago how his training in the US---and I,m pretty sure it was at Falcon Field ---ceased abruptly on VJ Day.
608 and Thornaby bring a lot of memories back to a Stockton born boy. I recall seeing my first --two-- Hudsons heading North--to Leuchars?---on Sept 3 or 4th 1939.I can go further back and recall a Rhodesian Hamden pilot crashing at night on rising ground to the S of the field. Didnt see you when I flew in there on March 31 1952 in a Harvard!
605 CO--- maybe 2 or 3 years older than me--he had been an instructor at Church Lawford and joined the Squadron as an Auxiliary after demob and coincident university entry. He took over as CO when his predecessor emigrated to Rhodesia.
FETS---- I know I paid 42 shillings a week for digs and perhaps the grant was less than 200 pounds/year. I regarded it as adequate but not generous--the BUAS pay was an added benefit
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Chugalug2
Yes the picture of the Dominie disproves my story of it being fitted with 4 or 5 TR1154/55s and I can only put it down to a fragile memory.
The drill was that each of the trainees took their turn at the set with the instructor sitting alongside. The Dominie does look plush in comparison with other service aircraft.
Any how back to Madley where those who had gained their brevet were awaiting posting.
These postings came through in early June and some were posted to Eastchurch to retrain in some ground trade but luckily I received an overseas!! posting to Jurby in the Isle of Man where No5 Air Navigation School was based. The job was to be a Staff W/op flying in Ansons normally with a crew of four comprising Staff Pilot,W/op and 2 trainee navigators. The flights usually consisted of 3 to 4 hours xcountry navigation exercises and weather permitting most of the staff aircrew flew every day.
All in all it was a pleasant posting, the airfield was on the coast and Douglas and Ramsey were in easy reach by the steam train which ran in these days.
However this idyllic situation was not to continue as in Sept 46 the unit was transferred lock, stock and barrel to Topcliffe in Yorkshire.
More later
Yes the picture of the Dominie disproves my story of it being fitted with 4 or 5 TR1154/55s and I can only put it down to a fragile memory.
The drill was that each of the trainees took their turn at the set with the instructor sitting alongside. The Dominie does look plush in comparison with other service aircraft.
Any how back to Madley where those who had gained their brevet were awaiting posting.
These postings came through in early June and some were posted to Eastchurch to retrain in some ground trade but luckily I received an overseas!! posting to Jurby in the Isle of Man where No5 Air Navigation School was based. The job was to be a Staff W/op flying in Ansons normally with a crew of four comprising Staff Pilot,W/op and 2 trainee navigators. The flights usually consisted of 3 to 4 hours xcountry navigation exercises and weather permitting most of the staff aircrew flew every day.
All in all it was a pleasant posting, the airfield was on the coast and Douglas and Ramsey were in easy reach by the steam train which ran in these days.
However this idyllic situation was not to continue as in Sept 46 the unit was transferred lock, stock and barrel to Topcliffe in Yorkshire.
More later
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Gaining an RAF pilots brevet in ww2
Danny 42c---A correction---2 u/t navs who were at Summerside at the same time I was in Yorkton think that we got the Canadian equivalent of our RAF LAC pay.If this is correct we were somewhat protected in that I believe the pound got 4.8 US dollars during the war---around 1.6 now
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Far East Driver---I wasnt sure how to spell guineas but able to do the coversion to shillings!--- It was not high class. In the evening, three of us would study, huddled around a fire "damped down" with wet tea leaves
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Exchange Rates.
DFCP,
No, the wartime (fixed) rate was $4.08 to the £, not $4.8 ! So a LAC on 5/6 a day got $1.12 per day, or say $33 per month. A US Aviation Cadet (on the identical Course) got $200 !
I don't know if the discrepancy was as great in Canada.
So you followed the "Boro' !" Checked the log, last flew 22 Feb '52, nothing till Apl 7. What was I doing in March? - can't remember. I wasn't ill, or anything like that. It may have been the time the F.C.U.'s C.O. had to resign as he had got a headmastership away somewhere, and I was acting C.O., and would have had a lot of running about between Thornaby and the T.A.A.F.A. in Northallerton over the choice of the new one.
S/Ldr Martin was the 608 C.O., John Newbould (of the meat pie family) was the Adj [EDIT: No he wasn't, he was John Newboult, and nothing to do with them], and Mike Beavis the Training Officer (ring any bells?).
Another thought, if you came in on a Sat/Sun, I'd have been up to the eyes in it. My HQ (an old Ops Block) was opposite the Station HQ, near the main gate. The Mess, of course, was in the old house (Thornaby Hall). All gone now, of course.
Happy days !
Danny.
No, the wartime (fixed) rate was $4.08 to the £, not $4.8 ! So a LAC on 5/6 a day got $1.12 per day, or say $33 per month. A US Aviation Cadet (on the identical Course) got $200 !
I don't know if the discrepancy was as great in Canada.
So you followed the "Boro' !" Checked the log, last flew 22 Feb '52, nothing till Apl 7. What was I doing in March? - can't remember. I wasn't ill, or anything like that. It may have been the time the F.C.U.'s C.O. had to resign as he had got a headmastership away somewhere, and I was acting C.O., and would have had a lot of running about between Thornaby and the T.A.A.F.A. in Northallerton over the choice of the new one.
S/Ldr Martin was the 608 C.O., John Newbould (of the meat pie family) was the Adj [EDIT: No he wasn't, he was John Newboult, and nothing to do with them], and Mike Beavis the Training Officer (ring any bells?).
Another thought, if you came in on a Sat/Sun, I'd have been up to the eyes in it. My HQ (an old Ops Block) was opposite the Station HQ, near the main gate. The Mess, of course, was in the old house (Thornaby Hall). All gone now, of course.
Happy days !
Danny.
Last edited by Danny42C; 24th Feb 2014 at 17:55. Reason: Additional Material. (24.2.14.) Correction.
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RAF Thornaby.
pzu,
No intrusion at all, Sir !
Name still eludes me, but there would not be more than one Aux ATC, and I have a faint memory of a "nice little chap" (if that is "off the beam", my apologies). Could that have been your Dad ?
There may be a lead. Around '52 - '54, the Aux ATC bought a 1939 Austin 10 "Cambridge" saloon (Yes, I know they used the name again in '60).
For this he paid £450, for a car which I know sold new for £185 ( which shows the state of the second-hand market in those days) - admittedly it was in lovely nick (the best I could afford was a Bond "Minicar" for £199 !)
Do you recall this Austin car ? (you would have been very small). If so, I know your Dad. He would have been in the Tower one dark Sunday afternoon when I called "joining, downwind and finals" at Thornaby, then did a roller at Middleton by mistake ! (the visibility was very bad !)
Happy days,
Danny.
No intrusion at all, Sir !
Name still eludes me, but there would not be more than one Aux ATC, and I have a faint memory of a "nice little chap" (if that is "off the beam", my apologies). Could that have been your Dad ?
There may be a lead. Around '52 - '54, the Aux ATC bought a 1939 Austin 10 "Cambridge" saloon (Yes, I know they used the name again in '60).
For this he paid £450, for a car which I know sold new for £185 ( which shows the state of the second-hand market in those days) - admittedly it was in lovely nick (the best I could afford was a Bond "Minicar" for £199 !)
Do you recall this Austin car ? (you would have been very small). If so, I know your Dad. He would have been in the Tower one dark Sunday afternoon when I called "joining, downwind and finals" at Thornaby, then did a roller at Middleton by mistake ! (the visibility was very bad !)
Happy days,
Danny.
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£450!!!
Danny
On Airwork pay even supplemented by Aux pay, I doubt if Dad could have raised £45 never mind £450!!!
Also he stood about 5'10" so not 'little except to me at 6'0" and my son at 6'4"
I don't remember an Austin though he did know Reg Vardy!!!!
PZULBA - Out of Africa (Retired)
On Airwork pay even supplemented by Aux pay, I doubt if Dad could have raised £45 never mind £450!!!
Also he stood about 5'10" so not 'little except to me at 6'0" and my son at 6'4"
I don't remember an Austin though he did know Reg Vardy!!!!
PZULBA - Out of Africa (Retired)
Last edited by pzu; 8th Aug 2012 at 01:11.
The BBC site at Daventry used over 20 high power shortwave transmitters, each running about 250 kW of power.
It's highly probable that the aircraft's own internal wiring acted as an antenna at such frequencies, with sufficient signal level to become audible.
In the later 1970s, we were at Barksdale AFB and the crew chief would use a long lead to talk to us during pre-flight and start-up. Unfortunately this lead also picked up the local MF radio station.....a Southern bible-bashing station. So every time we crewed in we had to tolerate all the "Amen, brother" rants from some passionate Southern revivalist god-botherer - which made challenge and response checklist reading somewhat awkward.
Were any of you chaps on the Empire training scheme ever cornered by American bible-bashers?
It's highly probable that the aircraft's own internal wiring acted as an antenna at such frequencies, with sufficient signal level to become audible.
In the later 1970s, we were at Barksdale AFB and the crew chief would use a long lead to talk to us during pre-flight and start-up. Unfortunately this lead also picked up the local MF radio station.....a Southern bible-bashing station. So every time we crewed in we had to tolerate all the "Amen, brother" rants from some passionate Southern revivalist god-botherer - which made challenge and response checklist reading somewhat awkward.
Were any of you chaps on the Empire training scheme ever cornered by American bible-bashers?
Off thread a bit but when I was in Belize in the 70s I walked past a chapel where there was an American evangelistic bible basher giving it stick; and so was his congregation. You could walk on the Halleluiahs coming out of the door.
Round the back was a Lincoln with USA registration plates. At the rear were two dark suited ushers stuffing shoe boxes full of money into the trunk.
During and immediately after the war five shillings (five bob) was known as a 'dollar' to reflect the US$4/£.
Round the back was a Lincoln with USA registration plates. At the rear were two dark suited ushers stuffing shoe boxes full of money into the trunk.
During and immediately after the war five shillings (five bob) was known as a 'dollar' to reflect the US$4/£.
Last edited by Fareastdriver; 8th Aug 2012 at 15:52.
Used to pick-up the BBC at Kinloss in the early 60s' from their Lossie transmitter on the various "Squawk Box" circuits in the Squadron. Lightened up waiting for the routine weekly bo----ing of Crew 6 by by the then Boss who wore a Flying Orifice' brevet!
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On winding down
Slightly OT and late, but here's hoping. I have my father's service record (79th HAA Regiment RA). He was serving in Italy. It reads: Post Hostilities A Planning Committee CMF 27/8/1944 to 24/9/1944. (CMF = Central Mediterranean Force) Army Welfare Training Centre CMF 25/9/1944 to 17/6/1946. So, the CMF were planning to wind down in August 1944. I'm sure he was happy to swap a slit trench for a comfortable bed in Rome.
