quesion for panavia tornado
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well, although all of replies is not directly, but I also get some useful information.
Shall we turn to that external fuel tank? Could that 2200liter tank was loaded under fuselage of Torando?
Shall we turn to that external fuel tank? Could that 2200liter tank was loaded under fuselage of Torando?
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Rosseu, NO (direct enough for you?)
More helpfully tho, the Tornado can carry 4 fuel tanks in Heavy Ferry fit. These are the 1500l class tanks (Smaller) one on each inboard wing station, and 2 on the under fusilage. Realistically tho, this is very rare, because you lose most of the weapons capability and the a/c is aproaching it's max AUW. The GR Tornados used to fly a '3 Bag fit', with plenty of fuel, but also able to carry some 'popping stuff'. F3s don't, as you cannot also carry AMRAAMs, hence 'Ferry Fit'.
Hope this has helped, Oh, and it's all open source.
Advo
PS: Try- www.google.co.uk
More helpfully tho, the Tornado can carry 4 fuel tanks in Heavy Ferry fit. These are the 1500l class tanks (Smaller) one on each inboard wing station, and 2 on the under fusilage. Realistically tho, this is very rare, because you lose most of the weapons capability and the a/c is aproaching it's max AUW. The GR Tornados used to fly a '3 Bag fit', with plenty of fuel, but also able to carry some 'popping stuff'. F3s don't, as you cannot also carry AMRAAMs, hence 'Ferry Fit'.
Hope this has helped, Oh, and it's all open source.
Advo
PS: Try- www.google.co.uk
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pba,
Quite right, in the F3, most a/c have the shoulder mounting fuel contacts disabled. Actually, it probably only flew in that fit once for the testing purposes! I've certainly never flown or even seen it.
I never quite understood the GRs doing 3 bag fit tho, surely 2x 2250L tanks are better than 3x 1500L tanks? (Drag?) Perhaps a GR chap might comment.
Regards, and thanks for the correction,
Advo
Quite right, in the F3, most a/c have the shoulder mounting fuel contacts disabled. Actually, it probably only flew in that fit once for the testing purposes! I've certainly never flown or even seen it.
I never quite understood the GRs doing 3 bag fit tho, surely 2x 2250L tanks are better than 3x 1500L tanks? (Drag?) Perhaps a GR chap might comment.
Regards, and thanks for the correction,
Advo
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Advo,
Perhaps part of the reason that the GR's tend to use the 3 tank fit, is the availability of the 1500L tanks to them. Having worked both GR and F3 aircraft, whilst on F3's I only ever saw one set of 1500L tanks on station, which were painted in Camo, and similarly, when on GR's, the 2250L tanks were equally as rare and painted Barley Grey.
I have actually seen GR1's with a 3 x 2250L tank fit, however, this was whilst on the SAOEU, so was most likely a one off. Interestingly, the early RAPTOR pod prototype was a modified 2250L tank, painted white and fitted to the LH shoulder pylon.
As you say, the majority of the F3 fleet now have the shoulder pylon fuel points disabled, however, it would not require much to get them back in a serviceable condition. It would likely require a fleets worth of serviceable 28v actuators for the fuel cocks however, as these are the first places a sootie looks for spares in the event of an actuator failure elsewhere in the system!!
Flipflopman
Perhaps part of the reason that the GR's tend to use the 3 tank fit, is the availability of the 1500L tanks to them. Having worked both GR and F3 aircraft, whilst on F3's I only ever saw one set of 1500L tanks on station, which were painted in Camo, and similarly, when on GR's, the 2250L tanks were equally as rare and painted Barley Grey.
I have actually seen GR1's with a 3 x 2250L tank fit, however, this was whilst on the SAOEU, so was most likely a one off. Interestingly, the early RAPTOR pod prototype was a modified 2250L tank, painted white and fitted to the LH shoulder pylon.
As you say, the majority of the F3 fleet now have the shoulder pylon fuel points disabled, however, it would not require much to get them back in a serviceable condition. It would likely require a fleets worth of serviceable 28v actuators for the fuel cocks however, as these are the first places a sootie looks for spares in the event of an actuator failure elsewhere in the system!!
Flipflopman
Some years ago, we flew an AAR trial for a Boscombe Girlie in a Tornado F2.
It had 4 tanks fitted.
IIRC, 15000 ft and 15-20 deg AoB at 285 KIAS and it was struggling...
Whereas the EuropHoon (once it has eventually filled up...
)... "Off the Tanker, request the block FL450 to FL500".
It had 4 tanks fitted.
IIRC, 15000 ft and 15-20 deg AoB at 285 KIAS and it was struggling...
Whereas the EuropHoon (once it has eventually filled up...
)... "Off the Tanker, request the block FL450 to FL500".
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Flip,
I think you are right, makes total sense. Although I didn't think the 2250L tanks could be fitted on the shoulders? (Ground Clearance) You might have seen 2 x 2250L on wings and 1 x 1500L on shoulder..... But I could definately be wrong.
Beages, Tanking is always a struggle with tanks in the mighty Fin! 4 Bags, just doesn't bare thinking about! (you'd be in for about a day and a half!) The Triangular Wonder Jet is certainly not short on power, so probably could tank easily at Max AUW.(provided they didn't rip their probe off!)
Regards,
Advo
I think you are right, makes total sense. Although I didn't think the 2250L tanks could be fitted on the shoulders? (Ground Clearance) You might have seen 2 x 2250L on wings and 1 x 1500L on shoulder..... But I could definately be wrong.
Beages, Tanking is always a struggle with tanks in the mighty Fin! 4 Bags, just doesn't bare thinking about! (you'd be in for about a day and a half!) The Triangular Wonder Jet is certainly not short on power, so probably could tank easily at Max AUW.(provided they didn't rip their probe off!
)Regards,
Advo
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Advo,
Was most definitely 3 x 2250L tanks fitted, as I carried out the Leak and Flow checks!
As I said though, this was on the OEU, so was likely connected to trials work, and not something you'd see on a day to day basis. We regularly flew with a 3 x 1500L fit when trailling out to the USA, so it was fairly unique to see a 3 x 2250L fit.
You are quite correct though, ground clearance is incredibly tight, and throughout the RAPTOR trials, with the modified 2250L tank fitted to the shoulder, the aircraft was only ever flown with 1500L tanks fitted, and many times with internals only.
Flipflopman
Was most definitely 3 x 2250L tanks fitted, as I carried out the Leak and Flow checks!
As I said though, this was on the OEU, so was likely connected to trials work, and not something you'd see on a day to day basis. We regularly flew with a 3 x 1500L fit when trailling out to the USA, so it was fairly unique to see a 3 x 2250L fit. You are quite correct though, ground clearance is incredibly tight, and throughout the RAPTOR trials, with the modified 2250L tank fitted to the shoulder, the aircraft was only ever flown with 1500L tanks fitted, and many times with internals only.
Flipflopman
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External tanks usually sit on the shoulder pylons. The centre pylon could carry a fuel tank but I don't believe that option was ever taken up. However, Buddy-Buddy refuelling is operated from the centre on the export IDS.
I bow to FLIP FLOP's obvious first hand experience but I'm surprised that 2250l tanks have been flown underfuse.
I bow to FLIP FLOP's obvious first hand experience but I'm surprised that 2250l tanks have been flown underfuse.
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Thinking about it, I'd like to see that jet! 4x 2250L 'Hindenbergs' Wow, it would look like a Tonka perched on 4 monster floats! Still, you'd have 15 Tonnes of Fuel. I wouldn't like to see the Vgo vs Vstop graph tho! 
Advo
Advo
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Seaking beats F3 to 10,000 - every time !
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In the Falklands the mighty Seaking used to easilybeat the F3 from brakes off to 10,000. 78 won many a beer from 1435 Flt proving it.
Not from me you didn't!
No one spotted the SAR boys con yet?
By the way 2250 Ltr tanks are not fitted normally on the shoulder pylons - only the 1500 ltr tanks.
Roymac
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In the Falklands the mighty Seaking used to easilybeat the F3 from brakes off to 10,000. 78 won many a beer from 1435 Flt proving it.
Not from me you didn't!
No one spotted the SAR boys con yet?
By the way 2250 Ltr tanks are not fitted normally on the shoulder pylons - only the 1500 ltr tanks.
Roymac
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LP,
Thank you for bowing so graciously to my first hand knowledge, but if you were to do a spot of research, you would perhaps see that it's not only my word you have to take, but several years of fully documented research, that show that the 2250s can be taken on the shoulders, whether that is in a wet fuel load situation, or a solid external hard stored situation. I spent 3 years on the Strike Attack OEU, 5 years on the F3 OEU and 2 years on the Fast Jet and Weapons OEU, so perhaps my memory is indeed clouded, but somehow I think not.
Roymac,
As I said mate, this was in a Trials environment, on the SAOEU, and was certainl ynot in a situation that you would normally find
As goes the Centre Line Pylon fuel points, they were most certainly designed to carry fuel, and indeed, the GR varient SI194 uses the centre line pylon fuel connection to drain the vent lines on the aircraft. The F3 does not have the plumbing for a centre line pylon, so has its SI194 vent line drain carried out via the Defuel line and the main fuel coupling.
Cheers,
Flipflopman
Thank you for bowing so graciously to my first hand knowledge, but if you were to do a spot of research, you would perhaps see that it's not only my word you have to take, but several years of fully documented research, that show that the 2250s can be taken on the shoulders, whether that is in a wet fuel load situation, or a solid external hard stored situation. I spent 3 years on the Strike Attack OEU, 5 years on the F3 OEU and 2 years on the Fast Jet and Weapons OEU, so perhaps my memory is indeed clouded, but somehow I think not.
Roymac,
As I said mate, this was in a Trials environment, on the SAOEU, and was certainl ynot in a situation that you would normally find
As goes the Centre Line Pylon fuel points, they were most certainly designed to carry fuel, and indeed, the GR varient SI194 uses the centre line pylon fuel connection to drain the vent lines on the aircraft. The F3 does not have the plumbing for a centre line pylon, so has its SI194 vent line drain carried out via the Defuel line and the main fuel coupling.
Cheers,
Flipflopman
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Flip Flop
What era were you flying 2250s on the shoulders?
It may well have been after my time on Tornado. I just don't recall ever seeing an RTS or SD for that fit (even trials work needs an SD), though I agree they will certainly function. The fuel totaliser won't unwind until you get to 10T remaining though!
What era were you flying 2250s on the shoulders?
It may well have been after my time on Tornado. I just don't recall ever seeing an RTS or SD for that fit (even trials work needs an SD), though I agree they will certainly function. The fuel totaliser won't unwind until you get to 10T remaining though!
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LP,
This was early to mid 90's. The RAPTOR trials, with the modified 2250L tank as the carrying body for the Raytheon equipment, was 1999. This was all with GR1's. It was also at this time that there was an uncommanded release of a 27mm round into the Arming pan at Boscombe from a certain GR1b, if you care to check the records (PM me for the serial No.)
As goes the RTS, or the SD, sorry mate, that is far beyond my remit, however, as you know full well, there was never an RTS for this fit, nor did I intimate there was one. The work with this fit was clearly trial related, and as such, I didn't have more to do with it than to ensure that the tanks all functioned as advertised, and that the fuel system was in perfect working order for the flights. As goes the RAPTOR fit, my role as Line Walker involved making sure that the prototype RAPTOR pod (as a 2250L tank) was not damaged in any way upon landing or otherwise, and also assisting the Raytheon agents in keeping the pod serviceable. That includes providing the broomhandle to reset the circuit breakers!!
Flipflopman
This was early to mid 90's. The RAPTOR trials, with the modified 2250L tank as the carrying body for the Raytheon equipment, was 1999. This was all with GR1's. It was also at this time that there was an uncommanded release of a 27mm round into the Arming pan at Boscombe from a certain GR1b, if you care to check the records (PM me for the serial No.)
As goes the RTS, or the SD, sorry mate, that is far beyond my remit, however, as you know full well, there was never an RTS for this fit, nor did I intimate there was one. The work with this fit was clearly trial related, and as such, I didn't have more to do with it than to ensure that the tanks all functioned as advertised, and that the fuel system was in perfect working order for the flights. As goes the RAPTOR fit, my role as Line Walker involved making sure that the prototype RAPTOR pod (as a 2250L tank) was not damaged in any way upon landing or otherwise, and also assisting the Raytheon agents in keeping the pod serviceable. That includes providing the broomhandle to reset the circuit breakers!!
Flipflopman
c. 2005, XXV(F) did quite a bit of F3 flying in '4 bag' fit to see if it was possible to make it to Akrotiri in a one-r (post AAR in the UK of course).
This was with 2250l tanks underwing and 2x 1500l tanks on the shoulders - takeoff from LEE was naturally tanks empty, you'd suck 12T off the tanker and then it would handle like an utter bag of ****, height loss on hdg changes at 20k
It never did get as far as AKR in the end, though the plan initially looked promising - a stonking headwind put the boys into Souda (where they subsequently stayed as it broke).
Not sure how official it was, but certainly on the sqn it was known as 'Hippo' fit...
This was with 2250l tanks underwing and 2x 1500l tanks on the shoulders - takeoff from LEE was naturally tanks empty, you'd suck 12T off the tanker and then it would handle like an utter bag of ****, height loss on hdg changes at 20k
It never did get as far as AKR in the end, though the plan initially looked promising - a stonking headwind put the boys into Souda (where they subsequently stayed as it broke).
Not sure how official it was, but certainly on the sqn it was known as 'Hippo' fit...