Yanks in the Falklands War?

[taxydual]

Or a photographic satellite in stationary orbit? 14521, I'm told.

[MAINJAFAD]

In fact, reading Jerry Pooks' excellent book ' RAF Harrier Ground Attack Falklands ' the French helped out a great deal with DACT involving Mirages & Super Etendards.

His book also backs up a great deal of what 'Sharkey' Ward mentioned, in that his team on Invincible were the only Seajet pilots fully trained up on the Blue Fox radar, and there was a serious lack of intelligence - in every sense - from Hermes - sorry if that doesn't suit some people, as it seems fashionable to knock Sharkey, but it all has a sadly 'ring true' factor to me...

Well just read it on your recommendation, and with chapters like, ‘More Navy Cockups’ and ‘Yet More Navy Cockups’ with explanations on how advice by people who actually knew what they were doing was totally ignored by the Flag staff on Hermes (backed up by Mike Clapp’s book, if you read between the lines). It does have a few errors in it, as does ‘Sea Harrier Over the Falklands’. But on the whole it rings true with what I’ve read on the subject from most sources I’ve seen, including the one I read back in 89 which is still as far as I know classified. Sharkey is wrong about the Vulcan in 'Sea Harrier' (most of his info in the book sounds like hearsay, events he quotes actually happened, but not in the order or circumstances that he places them), in that it was the most effective way of hitting the airfield at Stanley (Like a bomb from 607 did actually hit the runway, how many high altitude ones from the SHAR’s did??? Answer, about zero, I think you will find). As for the Shrike attacks, that TPS-43 was a major thorn in our operations, and the Vulcan ARM missions were the only way of nailing it (as stated, it very nearly came off). As for the TPS-43, I’ve actually been in it, when it was deployed to my unit in the 1990’s. Horrible purple CRT display’s and the inside of the thing was like a freezer, I wouldn’t have liked to have been an Argie operator of it in the Falklands.

[Ray Dahvectac]

He claims the Yanks provided AWACs cover for the task force.

He is wrong. They didn't.

[davejb]

Ewen,

Dave

Why assume an E-3? How about an E-2 off the boat?

Because there'd have had to have been a USN Carrier somewhere for it to fly off, and I think we'd have spotted an aircraft carrier, seeing as we were quite keen to locate the Argie one at the time.

As for satellites - yes, I'm sure satellite info was provided, but AWACS isn't satellite based and the question was whether the US provided AWACS to the fleet.

A geostationary satellite is in equatorial orbit (it has to be) and I'd be quite surprised if an equatorial satellite could 'see' something near the Falklands, which must be approx 50S...that's a slant range in excess of 3000nm. Any photo support would, I imagine, have been from a periodic overflight by a 'normally' orbiting photosat. I'd have thought Elint and radio intercept via satellite was probably more useful. (If you read the recent book about the sinking of the Belgrano it's apparent that somebody was reading the Argentine orders - make your own mind up about how that was being done).

How could a USAF AWACS fly in support of the fleet? It took masses of AAR to put each aircraft near the F.I., AAR's to refuel AARs, each creeping ever closer until the last tanker could refuel the Vulcan, Nimrod, Herc... (Vulcan 607 describes the extent of this AAR effort). Where did the AWACS and its associated AAR come from? It wasn't Ascension Is. and if you think Ascension was a long way from the F.I. then see how far away the next closest UK or US (or friendly enough to allow such a flight) base would have been.

No, even if I knew nothing about it anyway, I'd still have to say the whole idea has more holes in it than a big holey thing with a huge number of holes in it.

Mind you, Andrew Marr doubtless has as much idea of what AWACS is as most of the media - he probably thought he was describing the little shop on Ascension where you could buy flip flops and garish T shirts, or perhaps the Class 6.

Dave

[brickhistory]

TPS-43?!

Loved it! Great for controlling and getting inside a fight even at a merge.

"Raider 1, look through that bandit for 1/2 mile.........."

"Raider 1,tally two, fox two, fox two..........."


Good times............

[ORAC]

Depends what you'd been used to operating, if you'd been operating the T259, then the T-43 was like something like the sensor out of the starship Enterprise...

[MAINJAFAD]

Seen it the other way around, Scopie who'd worked on SLEWC and T94 get thrown into a T95 (S259). the comment ' What's this Sh!t' when he found it had no computer labelled displays and returns the size of sausages. Priceless!!!

[Double Zero]

High Altitude bombing, Port Stanley

I don't think the Seajet pilots had many hopes with CCIP aiming, just hoped they might get lucky ! Which I suppose is why BL755's were a popular option.

I filmed ( both externally & more usefully P.D.R. & pods ) most bombing trials of F.R.S.1 & 2, then G.R.5; a lot seemed to concentrate on dive attacks, which would obviously have been suicidal in the real world, like the Wonder-Bomber's JP-233...

Although the GR5 etc has the ARBS dual-mode tracker ( what fun it was to see bombs going into range targets a rather short distance away ) I'm always amazed when I read of the duff attempts in the F.I. With GR3 LRMTS & Paveway - surely might have been worth asking someone who knew the systems - I can think of several people who'd have known - or doing an urgent test range trial first !

[nmt]

The T-43 was the mutts nuts! Although a digital baby I did enjoy the joys of the "purple tube" at Loch Ewe and Otterburn. (All puns intended)

[Warmtoast]

I'd have thought Elint and radio intercept via satellite was probably more useful. (If you read the recent book about the sinking of the Belgrano it's apparent that somebody was reading the Argentine orders - make your own mind up about how that was being done

FWIW Former Labour Foreign Affairs minister Edward (Ted) Rowlands MP (now Baron Rowlands), in a debate in Parliament on the Falklands War on 3 April 1982 revealed that we (the British) were reading Argentine diplomatic codes. Rowlands was criticised for revealing this intelligence source, as the likely result of his disclosure was that the Argentinians would secure their systems and the intelligence would dry up. Mrs Thatcher called it "utterly devastating".

As Labour MP for Merthyr Tydfil, Rowlands was an experienced former Foreign Office minister in the Labour government who was involved in earlier Falklands negotiations in the late 1970's

He remained a Labour MP and from 1987 onwards served on the Foreign Affairs Select Committee. His "reading the codes" disclosure obviously had no effect on his future prospects as he was appointed a CBE in 2002, and in June 2004 he was given a life peerage, as Baron Rowlands of Merthyr Tydfil and of Rhymney.

As Hansard reported on Rowlands' participation in the debate on 3 April 1982:

Secondly, I have great difficulty in understanding how the intelligence failed. Our intelligence in Argentina was extremely good. That is why we took action in 1977. We found out that certain attitudes and approaches were being formed. I cannot believe that the quality of our intelligence has changed. Last night the Secretary of State for Defence asked "How can we read the mind of the enemy?" I shall make a disclosure. As well as trying to read the mind of the enemy, we have been reading its telegrams for many years. I am sure that many sources are available to the Government, and I do not understand how they failed to anticipate some of the dangers that suddenly loomed on the horizon.

[taxydual]

Where's the Treason Act when you want it? And to get a peerage as well!!!

[Archimedes]

I think he managed to get away with it thanks to the fact that, as usual, no-one, including the Argentines, paid any great attention to anything he said...

[Union Jack]

ATO parachuting into the Atlantic in 1972

Conjurer

I can confirm that the ATO did get presented his Para wings ....

Delighted to hear it, and also very taken with his modest response to questions as to how he "qualified"! Many thanks.

Jack

[Ray Dahvectac]

as usual, no-one, including the Argentines, paid any great attention to anything he said...

Unlike the 'I speak your weight' pronouncements of official MoD spokesman Ian McDonald, who explained that the reason the 1,000lb bombs the Argies were rolling off the ramps of their Herc were not exploding, was that they were being dropped from insufficient height to allow the bombs to arm correctly.

Next day they worked.

[RETDPI]

As I recall it that was the BBC talking about bombs dropped by Skyhawks. Ian McDonald was very carefully scripted.

[Ray Dahvectac]

Ian McDonald was very carefully scripted.

True, and most of his scripts were written (or at least, vetted) by Sir Frank Cooper, then PUS at MoD and a former Spitfire pilot (and, briefly a PoW before his escape).

Perhaps time and impending old age are dulling the memory, but I vaguely remember the McDonald monotone talking about the C130 bombing efforts. Perhaps that was after the BBC had let the cat out of the bag though.

[Heimdall]

What about the radar in Chile?

Since the end of the Falklands War in 1982 there has been considerable speculation about the support and facilities provided by Chile to the UK. The publication of ‘The Official History of the Falklands Campaign’ by Sir Lawrence Freedman has at last shed fresh light of what actually happened.

Undoubtedly the most significant assistance provided by Chile, which can be confirmed with certainty, was in allowing a powerful radar to be sighted near the border with Argentina to give advance warning of Argentinean fighters taking off for sorties against the Task Force.

Certain previous histories of the Falklands Air War, noteably 'Sea Harrier over the Falklands' by Commander Sharkey Ward, have commented on how the RN Sea Harriers often had an uncanny ability to be in the right place at the right time when attacking Argentinean fighters arrived. We now know that it certainly wasn’t due to the telepathic ability of the brave, but rather self-serving and egotistical ‘Sharkey’ Ward, but was yet again down to the timely gathering and dissemination of accurate intelligence - in this case not by a USAF E-3A or USN E-2C, but by UK forces on the ground.

There's more on this topic here http://www.spyflight.co.uk/chile.htm

Heimdall

[ninja-lewis]

I thought the raid warning was attributed to the submarines lying off the Argentine coast? The Times IIRC did an article on it a while back. Admittedly I haven't had a chance to read the Official History myself.

[Manuel de Vol]

Quote:"I think i read somewhere..possibly Vulcan 607?! that the U.S. provided a Tanker moored off of Ascension , to provide enough fuel for the Black Missions. Without it the Bombing of Stanley would never have taken place"

The tanker was a Maersk Line vessel with a British Crew.

[Manuel de Vol]

Quote:"Like it or not Ladies and Gentlemen, there is no doubt that the UK had "tacit" assistance from the U.S. during the Falklands War.
This may not have come as direct military logistical help, but given the tight political relationship between Thatcher and Regan at the time, intelligence and political pressure would have been made available at every opportunity."

Intelligence, yes.

'Concertina City' down on 'American Base' (The US/NASA enclave) was supplied by the 4055th Mobility Support Squadron from Holloman AFB.