PC/FTC Flying Pay to be considered for pension?
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PC/FTC Flying Pay to be considered for pension?
Am thinking of applying for PA/FTC(A) extension but have heard the buzz going around up here that due the lack of people on PC/FTC to grow for higher command (they are all leaving or going on to the PA/FTC(A) pay spine), the powers that don't be are considering extending the pension rights of PA/FTC(A) to those on a PC/FTC commission.
I know it has always been an old chestnut but if it is true then there would be little point going FTC(A) except for 5 years extra graft?
Can anyone shed any light on it or is rumour control set to max?
WDD
I know it has always been an old chestnut but if it is true then there would be little point going FTC(A) except for 5 years extra graft?
Can anyone shed any light on it or is rumour control set to max?
WDD
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I have heard a comment about this from a very well-placed source - so it may be a rumour, but a very well-placed one. I recall the discussions several years back ove whether it was legal to provide taxed but not pensionable pay (eg flying pay, submarine pay, sf pay etc) and a legal challenge was mounted and failed due to incorrect process - meaning there hasn't actully been a ruling on it yet.....
Nevertheless the motivation for being on PA is more than just financial. Essentially you could serve to 55 as a flt lt and retire on a Gp Capt's pension after a career of flying without getting involved in 'greasy pole' politics. Not an option for career streamers, even if the pension is enhanced.
Nevertheless the motivation for being on PA is more than just financial. Essentially you could serve to 55 as a flt lt and retire on a Gp Capt's pension after a career of flying without getting involved in 'greasy pole' politics. Not an option for career streamers, even if the pension is enhanced.
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I think that SammySue may be referring to the rumour that FRI 2 will soon be scrapped in favour of some sort of pensionable element of flying pay for those remaining on CS up to Wg Cdr. Anyone else heard anything?
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I attended JOCC at Shrivenham within the last 6 months and the brief from the posting man was there will be a Basic+flying pay stream (it has been staffed and with the bean counters as we speak) probably called Career Aviator. For those who wish to pursue promotion and not be disadvantaged by PAS.
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Apparently - well it is a rumour network - this has been an ongoing bugbear raised to the AFPRB year in year out since PAS was introduced and the RAF chaps in Main building are pushing for some form of equity to include pensionable flying pay.
The paper is being written sounds an awful lot like the cheque is in the post but maybe just maybe...
The paper is being written sounds an awful lot like the cheque is in the post but maybe just maybe...
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Maybe
Due to the high numbers pulled through onto PAS/FTC(A) there are insufficient Career Stream (CS) aviators to be promoted through to the higher echelons of a 2nd stage career (OF4/5 and beyond). The numbers volunteering are obviously due to the enhanced pension benefits of remaining at Sqn Ldr/Lt Cdr on the PAS/FTC(A) whilst those promoted beyond as CS aviators get less financial recompense for arguably greater responsibility and decision making. Therefore to encourage personnel to remain on the CS and redress the imbalance of the terminal financial benefits between the two, one workstrand that has a head of steam is to consider pensioning of flying pay for the CS aviator.
Obviously in the current climate of final salary pension schemes, credit squeeze etc the greatest challenge is undoubtedly going to be pushing it through the Treasury.
Obviously in the current climate of final salary pension schemes, credit squeeze etc the greatest challenge is undoubtedly going to be pushing it through the Treasury.
I too have heard of PAS 2009 from 2 seperate, but in the know, sources. I understand that it has been approved at a lower level and is awaiting higher level approval. From what I could gather it has both Career Stream (CS) and Profesionnal Aviator Spine (PAS) on the same pay-levels until Wg Cdr (forgot to ask whether that is inclusive, although PAS pension and Wg Cdr pension are about the same).
The driver is that the current system is @rse. You can stay a Flt Lt/Sqn Ldr PAS and get somewhere between a Wg Cdr's and Gp Capt's pension (depending on your flying branch) or take promotion and then stay a Sqn Ldr or even a Wg Cdr on the CS and get a lower pension. I understand that some succesful candidates on the Sqn Ldr and Wg Cdr promotion boards have been turning down promotion because of this ridiculous scheme.
If the scheme is accepted it could be in for Jan 2009 (hence the name PAS 2009).
PLEASE BEWARE THAT THIS WAS TAKEN FROM A COUPLE OF CONVERSATIONS OVER A MUG OF COFFEE - this is the Prof Pilots' RUMOUR Network after all! So don't take the above info as what will happen.
Finger's X'd
LJ
The driver is that the current system is @rse. You can stay a Flt Lt/Sqn Ldr PAS and get somewhere between a Wg Cdr's and Gp Capt's pension (depending on your flying branch) or take promotion and then stay a Sqn Ldr or even a Wg Cdr on the CS and get a lower pension. I understand that some succesful candidates on the Sqn Ldr and Wg Cdr promotion boards have been turning down promotion because of this ridiculous scheme.
If the scheme is accepted it could be in for Jan 2009 (hence the name PAS 2009).
PLEASE BEWARE THAT THIS WAS TAKEN FROM A COUPLE OF CONVERSATIONS OVER A MUG OF COFFEE - this is the Prof Pilots' RUMOUR Network after all! So don't take the above info as what will happen.
Finger's X'd
LJ
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Leon,
I too have heard the story. The new plan might well solve the problem in the future, but it does nothing to solve the huge problem that exists now!
Its not as if it wasn't predictable; there were rumblings about it here on Pprune about 3 years ago, but as usual, the wheels did nothing about it (I suspect that they didn't understand or even care). I've watched some really excellent up-and-coming senior officers leave over the last few years because they see their promotion efforts unrewarded when compared to PAS aircrew; quite justifiably, they get frustrated, feel undervalued and aim their careers elsewhere.
I suspect that the proposed new system you've heard about is designed to solve that long-term problem, but I bet you any money you like that it will not be retrospective (like pensionable flying pay was for spec aircrew moving to PAS). If it isn't, then a lot of people will be even more pi**ed off, and in the short-term, the problem will get even bigger!
I too have heard the story. The new plan might well solve the problem in the future, but it does nothing to solve the huge problem that exists now!
Its not as if it wasn't predictable; there were rumblings about it here on Pprune about 3 years ago, but as usual, the wheels did nothing about it (I suspect that they didn't understand or even care). I've watched some really excellent up-and-coming senior officers leave over the last few years because they see their promotion efforts unrewarded when compared to PAS aircrew; quite justifiably, they get frustrated, feel undervalued and aim their careers elsewhere.
I suspect that the proposed new system you've heard about is designed to solve that long-term problem, but I bet you any money you like that it will not be retrospective (like pensionable flying pay was for spec aircrew moving to PAS). If it isn't, then a lot of people will be even more pi**ed off, and in the short-term, the problem will get even bigger!
LFFC
Sadly, I hear you loud and clear 
Let's hope that we're incorrect...
LJ
I bet you any money you like that it will not be retrospective (like pensionable flying pay was for spec aircrew moving to PAS). If it isn't, then a lot of people will be even more pi**ed off, and in the short-term, the problem will get even bigger!
Let's hope that we're incorrect...
LJ
What was actually wrong with the old system? All that was really needed was to include flying pay in the total upon which the pension was based. Particularly for Spec Aircrew.
When the new system came up with nothing to recompense those Spec Aircrew with less than 5 years to NRD who could not transfer to the PA spine, yet another push factor was generated.....
When the new system came up with nothing to recompense those Spec Aircrew with less than 5 years to NRD who could not transfer to the PA spine, yet another push factor was generated.....
Champagne anyone...?
Sorry, what do you mean by rank bars? (other than the nice shiny silver BA ones I expect I'll be vying for shortly)
Is there the suggestion that to progress up the PAS pay bands one has to get promoted? Does that not actually defeat the object of PA? Getting promoted to Sqn Ldr PA immediately puts you into the melting pot of crap sqn ldr jobs that people accept PA to avoid. As said above, that'll ensure those of PA left will probably go...... Bizarre. Actually, I guess those of us already on the PAS won't be subjected to changed TOS.....
Is there the suggestion that to progress up the PAS pay bands one has to get promoted? Does that not actually defeat the object of PA? Getting promoted to Sqn Ldr PA immediately puts you into the melting pot of crap sqn ldr jobs that people accept PA to avoid. As said above, that'll ensure those of PA left will probably go...... Bizarre. Actually, I guess those of us already on the PAS won't be subjected to changed TOS.....
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Yes, that really is bizarre... but so, too, is the effect created by capping the PAS pay rate by trade. While what Leon J points out about being better off as a PAS Flt Lt than a Wg Cdr CS is correct for pilots, navs and other WSO types are prevented from reaching the top of the PAS pay scale (strange because, when the scheme was brought in, we were actually shorter of navs than we were of pilots). The upshot of this is that a nav who thinks he's got a decent crack at becoming a Wg Cdr has the incentive to stay on CS and get promoted, and if he's successful will get a better pension and be paid more during his service career than if he chose PAS.
Could this be why we seem to have a surprisingly large number of Wg Cdr navs while our front-line fleets are going more and more to aircraft that don't employ navigators, either because they don't have a crew position (Typhoon, C-130J, C-17 etc) or because their services are no longer required (SH)?
Could this be why we seem to have a surprisingly large number of Wg Cdr navs while our front-line fleets are going more and more to aircraft that don't employ navigators, either because they don't have a crew position (Typhoon, C-130J, C-17 etc) or because their services are no longer required (SH)?
A couple of points....
1) Surely if many (most) Sqn Ldrs are leaving or opting for PAS at 38, then for the 'career animals' out there the prospects of promotion to Wg Cdr are vastly improved!! I have heard of a couple being promoted recently that certainly raised my eyebrows!!!
2) If the lot of CS Sqn Ldrs are to be improved, will the FRI disappear (2x£50,000 at the moment for CS Sqn Ldr pilots I believe??).
3) While many people may not consider this relevant....'you can't fly without pilots'....etc, etc. How will 'apparent' improvements to the lot of Sqn Ldrs (who might still be getting £100,000 FRI) penisons and conditions go down with the junior ranks, where retention, feeling valued, etc is, I believe, an issue. Possible comments of '....officers looking after themselves.....', etc, etc. Don't tell me - 'they should have worked harder at school'....
1) Surely if many (most) Sqn Ldrs are leaving or opting for PAS at 38, then for the 'career animals' out there the prospects of promotion to Wg Cdr are vastly improved!! I have heard of a couple being promoted recently that certainly raised my eyebrows!!!
2) If the lot of CS Sqn Ldrs are to be improved, will the FRI disappear (2x£50,000 at the moment for CS Sqn Ldr pilots I believe??).
3) While many people may not consider this relevant....'you can't fly without pilots'....etc, etc. How will 'apparent' improvements to the lot of Sqn Ldrs (who might still be getting £100,000 FRI) penisons and conditions go down with the junior ranks, where retention, feeling valued, etc is, I believe, an issue. Possible comments of '....officers looking after themselves.....', etc, etc. Don't tell me - 'they should have worked harder at school'....
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Biggus,
Good points. Here's my 2 cents worth (about 1p given today's exchange).
There is a problem with junior ranks retention. Hence the FRI for Regiment and Firefighters. But S/L Aircrew CS types, by that stage, have had a huge investment into them, and to get someone else up to that level of qualification/experience would take the same amount of time/money, both of which the RAF don't have.
I don't mean to be blaise about this, but the workforce pool outside the RAF offers more opportunities to recruit someone into the junior ranks and get them to the point we need them to fill gaps. Not so easy to pick people off the streets and have them at Sqn Ldr level within a few years.
While I'm sure we all like to volcalise the value each one of us is to the service and the work we do, there is a pecking order and pyramid of abilities, to which you presume the higher up that pyramid you are, the more difficult it is the replace you with someone whose qualified to do so. As a Flt Lt pilot, I'm well aware of my place, and if retention is an issue for a branch / speciality I'm unable to fill myself, I recognise that fact and don't feel the need to turn the issue around to "What about me then ?"
Good points. Here's my 2 cents worth (about 1p given today's exchange).
There is a problem with junior ranks retention. Hence the FRI for Regiment and Firefighters. But S/L Aircrew CS types, by that stage, have had a huge investment into them, and to get someone else up to that level of qualification/experience would take the same amount of time/money, both of which the RAF don't have.
I don't mean to be blaise about this, but the workforce pool outside the RAF offers more opportunities to recruit someone into the junior ranks and get them to the point we need them to fill gaps. Not so easy to pick people off the streets and have them at Sqn Ldr level within a few years.
While I'm sure we all like to volcalise the value each one of us is to the service and the work we do, there is a pecking order and pyramid of abilities, to which you presume the higher up that pyramid you are, the more difficult it is the replace you with someone whose qualified to do so. As a Flt Lt pilot, I'm well aware of my place, and if retention is an issue for a branch / speciality I'm unable to fill myself, I recognise that fact and don't feel the need to turn the issue around to "What about me then ?"