Jailed Flt Lt
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I have to agree with Jacko - if this chap was a politician the media would sell a bunch of newspapers on the strength of the story, he would be taken to the Standards Board - they would probably just censor him and he would get re-elected at the next election by the same sort of stupid twits who have voted this government in twice.
OK - I am extremely pleased that the military are not of that ilk but jail seems a little harsh when set against civilian norms of today.
OK - I am extremely pleased that the military are not of that ilk but jail seems a little harsh when set against civilian norms of today.
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I know Dave well (worked in the same office 2002-2005) and I hope he manages to pick up the pieces of his life when he gets out. He clearly needs some psychological / counselling help.
Those that knew him best were well aware of his 'extra badges'.
It puts me in mind of a picture taken of him (still in the instructors office at boulmer sfc) to demonstrate the category Faker. Somehow seems very apt!
Will he be in Colchester or a civvie clink? Anyone know?
I'd like to write to him.
Those that knew him best were well aware of his 'extra badges'.
It puts me in mind of a picture taken of him (still in the instructors office at boulmer sfc) to demonstrate the category Faker. Somehow seems very apt!
Will he be in Colchester or a civvie clink? Anyone know?
I'd like to write to him.
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"An RAF airman has been jailed for three months and dismissed from the service for forging qualifications so he could go to Iraq, it was revealed yesterday."
Typical media!
Typical media!
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Without the facts and without knowing the idividual, it is almost impossible to reach a proper conclusion: perhaps it would be best not to comment at all. The case, however, raises important questions.
One can only trust that tried by serving officers, he got a fair hearing. Do not write this man off too eagerly: In the Words of 16th C English Protestant martyr John Bradford, "there but for the grace of God". The problem may, however, sometimes be that a moment's madness leads to inevitable further falsification to cover it up. There are people serving who may nver have made an error of judgement in their whole career: these I find very frightening. It takes enormous courage to confess failure but it also requires trust in superiors and support from them: in our new blame culture I find that this may be lacking. What sort of bureaucratically led culture do we have that someone thinks that they have to falsify paperwork in the first place?
I suspect that the savage (and possibly unhelpful) sentence of imprisonment relates more in our paranoid epoch of "gun crime" to the posession of ammunition, rather than the falsification of qualifications. I am appalled, though, at the suggestion that the ammunition would not be taken on charge/disposed of safely without the correct paperwork: I trust that this will be addressed internally.
If he potentially put others in danger, than that is bad news and his departure and conscience will haunt him always: what saddens me about this is that in an era when we are falling over ourselves to demonstrate duty of care, it appears that when there is greatest physical courage in our young people deploying into harm's way, there is the greatest moral cowardice amongst our leadership, particularly the politicians and our politicised seniors. Honesty is rightly highly prised amongst the more junior members of the Armed Forces: this appears to become less so higher up the tree.
The training is without question for the benefit of the individual: the certification is for the prevention of embarrasment to the CoC and the Gubment after things have gone wrong. I would like to pose one question: as we continue to pare down training on the grounds of cost are we certain that every qualification means "competent", or does it really mean "attended"? I think that this has important implications. I know people who are not professionally qualified but are competent and people who are not professionally competent who are fully trained. Do your people trust you enough to say either: "Boss, Ive f*cked up.." or "I am not fully confident with my abilty to..."? What would your reaction be?
It is a pretty pass when we concentrate so hard on the process and the paperwork that we cannot see if there is a real problem with our people? Less management, more leadership please.
One can only trust that tried by serving officers, he got a fair hearing. Do not write this man off too eagerly: In the Words of 16th C English Protestant martyr John Bradford, "there but for the grace of God". The problem may, however, sometimes be that a moment's madness leads to inevitable further falsification to cover it up. There are people serving who may nver have made an error of judgement in their whole career: these I find very frightening. It takes enormous courage to confess failure but it also requires trust in superiors and support from them: in our new blame culture I find that this may be lacking. What sort of bureaucratically led culture do we have that someone thinks that they have to falsify paperwork in the first place?
I suspect that the savage (and possibly unhelpful) sentence of imprisonment relates more in our paranoid epoch of "gun crime" to the posession of ammunition, rather than the falsification of qualifications. I am appalled, though, at the suggestion that the ammunition would not be taken on charge/disposed of safely without the correct paperwork: I trust that this will be addressed internally.
If he potentially put others in danger, than that is bad news and his departure and conscience will haunt him always: what saddens me about this is that in an era when we are falling over ourselves to demonstrate duty of care, it appears that when there is greatest physical courage in our young people deploying into harm's way, there is the greatest moral cowardice amongst our leadership, particularly the politicians and our politicised seniors. Honesty is rightly highly prised amongst the more junior members of the Armed Forces: this appears to become less so higher up the tree.
The training is without question for the benefit of the individual: the certification is for the prevention of embarrasment to the CoC and the Gubment after things have gone wrong. I would like to pose one question: as we continue to pare down training on the grounds of cost are we certain that every qualification means "competent", or does it really mean "attended"? I think that this has important implications. I know people who are not professionally qualified but are competent and people who are not professionally competent who are fully trained. Do your people trust you enough to say either: "Boss, Ive f*cked up.." or "I am not fully confident with my abilty to..."? What would your reaction be?
It is a pretty pass when we concentrate so hard on the process and the paperwork that we cannot see if there is a real problem with our people? Less management, more leadership please.
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Thanks for picking up on some of the issues that I was hinting at and commenting so eloquently Fawkes.
God knows what todays process driven system would have made of Lawrence of Arabia for example.......although I suppose he would be able to "come out" of course.....
You are probably right that the jail relates to the ammunition. Many years ago an ex-Para acquaintance of mine who had joined the Lothian and Borders police decided to liven up a terrorism lecture at Tulliallan Police College by bringing some souvenirs to class, oops
end of a fledgling police career, no jail though !
God knows what todays process driven system would have made of Lawrence of Arabia for example.......although I suppose he would be able to "come out" of course.....
You are probably right that the jail relates to the ammunition. Many years ago an ex-Para acquaintance of mine who had joined the Lothian and Borders police decided to liven up a terrorism lecture at Tulliallan Police College by bringing some souvenirs to class, oops
end of a fledgling police career, no jail though !
Rakshasa,
Some degree of punishment was clearly appropriate, and I'm sorry if I seemed to suggest otherwise.
It just seemed rather sad, to me, and I wondered whether there shouldn't be a bit more emphasis on helping the bloke than on simply locking him up.
No-one joins the services because they failed the M&S interview - it's a vocation and a lifestyle, and being slung out will be a disgrace and a trauma that might be (Might!) punishment enough?
Some degree of punishment was clearly appropriate, and I'm sorry if I seemed to suggest otherwise.
It just seemed rather sad, to me, and I wondered whether there shouldn't be a bit more emphasis on helping the bloke than on simply locking him up.
No-one joins the services because they failed the M&S interview - it's a vocation and a lifestyle, and being slung out will be a disgrace and a trauma that might be (Might!) punishment enough?
Why do people join?
At a small risk of thread creep, people do join the Services after they fail an M&S interview. Up to 30% of enlisted personnel in the British Army list that it joining the army was the 'career of last resort'.
Let's face facts. This Flt Lt deliberately wore badges he knew he was not entitled to wear; moreover he forged documents that could have endangered his life and the lives of others. He is a Walter Mitty, not Lawrence of Arabia or Orde Wingate or David Stirling or Douglas Bader...
For the outing of Walts, have a look at www.anzmi.net for a laugh.
Let's face facts. This Flt Lt deliberately wore badges he knew he was not entitled to wear; moreover he forged documents that could have endangered his life and the lives of others. He is a Walter Mitty, not Lawrence of Arabia or Orde Wingate or David Stirling or Douglas Bader...
For the outing of Walts, have a look at www.anzmi.net for a laugh.
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Rakshasa,
Some degree of punishment was clearly appropriate, and I'm sorry if I seemed to suggest otherwise.
It just seemed rather sad, to me, and I wondered whether there shouldn't be a bit more emphasis on helping the bloke than on simply locking him up.
No-one joins the services because they failed the M&S interview - it's a vocation and a lifestyle, and being slung out will be a disgrace and a trauma that might be (Might!) punishment enough?
Some degree of punishment was clearly appropriate, and I'm sorry if I seemed to suggest otherwise.
It just seemed rather sad, to me, and I wondered whether there shouldn't be a bit more emphasis on helping the bloke than on simply locking him up.
No-one joins the services because they failed the M&S interview - it's a vocation and a lifestyle, and being slung out will be a disgrace and a trauma that might be (Might!) punishment enough?
I must stress I agree with you and your opinion is a perfectly valid one, so there's no need to say sorry!
But as I said, I can see why the court weren't particularly lenient. You're right though, it's a very sad outcome for Dave, his friends and family and perhaps, a lesson for the rest of us about not getting too carried away.
"............ I am appalled, though, at the suggestion that the ammunition would not be taken on charge/disposed of safely without the correct paperwork: I trust that this will be addressed internally."
Slightly off-topic. Whatever happened to the phrase "Received without covering vouchers" that stackers used to use to cover a multitude of cases where kit turned up from unexpected quarters. That phrase has, over the years, got a lot of people out of the poo and could have been used by the (allegedly) dump jobsworths in this guy's case (that is, if he did indeed approach the dumpies).
If the matter is addressed internally, I would expect OC Supply (or whatever the title is these days) to be testing the trade knowledge of his staff.
Slightly off-topic. Whatever happened to the phrase "Received without covering vouchers" that stackers used to use to cover a multitude of cases where kit turned up from unexpected quarters. That phrase has, over the years, got a lot of people out of the poo and could have been used by the (allegedly) dump jobsworths in this guy's case (that is, if he did indeed approach the dumpies).
If the matter is addressed internally, I would expect OC Supply (or whatever the title is these days) to be testing the trade knowledge of his staff.
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Our station commander, an air commodore, completed a number of water jumps and awarded himself a set of para wings. No one commented. He was certainly a charismatic personality who sadly died before retirement.
Wasn't there also some question about Churchill and pilot's wings?
Wasn't there also some question about Churchill and pilot's wings?
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It seems to me that any member of the Armed Forces who has been guilty of forgery and firearms offences would be in serious trouble.
Mitigating factors:
1. By some accounts, he's a nice chap.
2. No malice seems to have been intended.
There are however some aggravating factors:
1. This was an commissioned officer, and the forgery calls into question his integrity.
2. These offences are related to deployment to an operational theatre, with its attendant dangers, not a backwater of the training establishment.
3. The ammunition was kept for seven months, not a week or two.
Imprisonment and being cashiered seems appropriate to the severity of the offences. Certainly an NCO would be looking at MCTC for this, therefore the sentence for an officer must be no less.
Maybe the time in the Greybar Hotel will be an opportunity to reflect on certain choices, and having paid the debt to military society, he can proceed with life from a new perspective. He will be free to choose his own future, and make the best out of life, like the rest of us.
Mitigating factors:
1. By some accounts, he's a nice chap.
2. No malice seems to have been intended.
There are however some aggravating factors:
1. This was an commissioned officer, and the forgery calls into question his integrity.
2. These offences are related to deployment to an operational theatre, with its attendant dangers, not a backwater of the training establishment.
3. The ammunition was kept for seven months, not a week or two.
Imprisonment and being cashiered seems appropriate to the severity of the offences. Certainly an NCO would be looking at MCTC for this, therefore the sentence for an officer must be no less.
Maybe the time in the Greybar Hotel will be an opportunity to reflect on certain choices, and having paid the debt to military society, he can proceed with life from a new perspective. He will be free to choose his own future, and make the best out of life, like the rest of us.
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Originally Posted by Jacko
It just seemed rather sad, to me, and I wondered whether there shouldn't be a bit more emphasis on helping the bloke than on simply locking him up.
The thing that sticks in my throat, and I'm sure AdanaKebab will be able to relate to it, is that for years we knew that he was acting out a role that he couldn't fulfill. At the moment, I can't help but think that, perhaps, if we'd told him to stop bulls
tting, if we'd stopped indulging his crass errors of judgment, we could have avoided the current mess. I guess he's been allowed to get himself into this situation when it really could have been avoided, and that makes me feel very uneasy. Sometimes the friendliest thing to do is to have some harsh words with someone for his own protection.
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My favourite Walt is Sir Alan McIlwraith KBE DSO MC. He certainly bears all the hallmarks associated with this sort of activity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Mcilwraith
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Mcilwraith
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Sometimes the friendliest thing to do is to have some harsh words with someone for his own protection.
His behavior should have been checked long before it got this far. I hope pertinent questions are asked re. his immediate Senior Officer(S)
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tablet eraser, you know as well as I do that Sharpy wouldn't listen even if you told him straight. He would have told you he was right and would have shown you the 'paperwork' if you'd asked him!
Reminds me of some Eagles lyrics ...' it seems to me some fine things have been laid upon your table, but you always want the ones that you can't get'
I guess he'll be realising now what he had ... and you're right .. it will be hitting him very hard which is why I wanted to write to him.
Do you know if he is doing civvie or military porridge?
Remember: A commission is an extremely difficult thing to gain and those of us who have, are extremely fortunate to hold one .... Earn it everyday!
Reminds me of some Eagles lyrics ...' it seems to me some fine things have been laid upon your table, but you always want the ones that you can't get'
I guess he'll be realising now what he had ... and you're right .. it will be hitting him very hard which is why I wanted to write to him.
Do you know if he is doing civvie or military porridge?
Remember: A commission is an extremely difficult thing to gain and those of us who have, are extremely fortunate to hold one .... Earn it everyday!
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Civvie or Mil Porridge?
I believe the normal course of events is for those expected to return to service to go to MCTC, whilst those who are dismissed go to a civvie prison.
I am not sure what category of prison he will go to in this case though.
More than anything else, this is a very sad case.
STH
I am not sure what category of prison he will go to in this case though.
More than anything else, this is a very sad case.
STH
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Sharpy wouldn't listen even if you told him straight. He would have told you he was right and would have shown you the 'paperwork' if you'd asked him!