Iranian Patrol boats threaten US Warships
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Another poster put a very succinct digest of the Gulf of Tonkin incident on the Iranian gun boat thread:
archimedes:
I find it an easy explanation for the loss of the two jets (and all three crewmembers are ok): Simply, they were from the USS Harry Truman and as he so famously said, "The bug stops here......"
archimedes:
Just for clarity there were supposedly two attacks on the Maddox.
The first, on 2 Aug 64, certainly happened (General Giap acknowledged this, and he doesn't exactly count as a pro-US source) , and may, stress may) have been enough to trigger retaliatory action and get the TGR anyway. That's a matter for debate, but there is little doubt that there was a confrontation between Maddox and Turner Joy and NV PT boats that night.
The supposed 2nd attack is the one that didn't happen - something that was known and accepted within parts of the USN at the time, since the F-8 and A-1 drivers sent to provide support against the 2nd attack spent their time trying to find enemy PT boats but couldn't. US Naval Aviators were expressing doubts about the 2nd attack from the early morning of 5 August 1964, and the consensus at the time was that the crew on watch on the Maddox were jumpy after the 2nd August, and a series of c*ck-ups led to the crew believing (genuinely) that they were under attack. This was then exploited by LBJ's administration to reinforce efforts to gain approval for the executive's actions in Vietnam in response.
The first, on 2 Aug 64, certainly happened (General Giap acknowledged this, and he doesn't exactly count as a pro-US source) , and may, stress may) have been enough to trigger retaliatory action and get the TGR anyway. That's a matter for debate, but there is little doubt that there was a confrontation between Maddox and Turner Joy and NV PT boats that night.
The supposed 2nd attack is the one that didn't happen - something that was known and accepted within parts of the USN at the time, since the F-8 and A-1 drivers sent to provide support against the 2nd attack spent their time trying to find enemy PT boats but couldn't. US Naval Aviators were expressing doubts about the 2nd attack from the early morning of 5 August 1964, and the consensus at the time was that the crew on watch on the Maddox were jumpy after the 2nd August, and a series of c*ck-ups led to the crew believing (genuinely) that they were under attack. This was then exploited by LBJ's administration to reinforce efforts to gain approval for the executive's actions in Vietnam in response.
I find it an easy explanation for the loss of the two jets (and all three crewmembers are ok): Simply, they were from the USS Harry Truman and as he so famously said, "The bug stops here......"
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Video footage is available now, although blurry does show Iranian boats coming at and then circling the warships.
USS Hopper, Ingraham and Port Royal were the ships involved.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=652_1199828142
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=0ff_1199829583
USS Hopper, Ingraham and Port Royal were the ships involved.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=652_1199828142
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=0ff_1199829583
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Anyone out there who speaks Farsi and has actually heard the comments made by the radioman on the Iranian gunboat?
Shades of the Gulf of Tonking incident(s), I can't help but feel this story might have grown somewhat in the (re)telling - or been embellished just a little to fit in with someone's agenda.
Shades of the Gulf of Tonking incident(s), I can't help but feel this story might have grown somewhat in the (re)telling - or been embellished just a little to fit in with someone's agenda.
Originally Posted by Pureteenlard
I can't help thinking that the what the Navy really needs out in the Gulf right now is half a dozen MGB's . . .
It was all a fake, concocted by the filthy Yankee imperialists 
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/me...ats/index.html
Predictable, or what?
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/me...ats/index.html
Predictable, or what?
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This will prove to be the biggest propaganda victory for the US since Gulf War 1.
Iran shown clearly to be bad for regional oil stability, and a lot of countries from Europe to Asia depend on this shipped oil. It's no laughing matter.
Iran then shown clearly to be lying saying nothing happened, raising questions as well of whether the government is in control.
In the face of blatant evidence, Iran shown lying yet again saying that the video is fake.
A rogue state, a renegade state, uncooperative, aggressive, having evil intent. After a few years of sanctions, they'll be ripe for the pickin'.
Iran shown clearly to be bad for regional oil stability, and a lot of countries from Europe to Asia depend on this shipped oil. It's no laughing matter.
Iran then shown clearly to be lying saying nothing happened, raising questions as well of whether the government is in control.
In the face of blatant evidence, Iran shown lying yet again saying that the video is fake.
A rogue state, a renegade state, uncooperative, aggressive, having evil intent. After a few years of sanctions, they'll be ripe for the pickin'.
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A snippit taken from an interview from a defector in Iranian intelligence in Europe.
He goes on to say that Iran has plans to close the St of Hormuz in any event that the US will strike nuclear facilities, ending trade for a considerable amount of time...
"Iran plans to begin offensive operations by launching successive waves of explosives-packed boats against U.S. warships in the Gulf, piloted by "Ashura" or suicide bombers.
The first wave can draw on more than 1,000 small fast-attack boats operated by the Revolutionary Guards navy, equipped with rocket launchers, heavy machine-guns and possibly Sagger anti-tank missiles.
In recent years, the Iranians have used these small boats to practice "swarming" raids on commercial vessels and U.S. warships patrolling the Persian Gulf.
The White House listed two such attacks in the list of 10 foiled al-Qaida terrorist attacks it released on Feb. 10. The attacks were identified as a "plot by al-Qaida operatives to attack ships in the [Persian] Gulf" in early 2003, and a separate plot to "attack ships in the Strait of Hormuz."
A second wave of suicide attacks would be carried out by "suicide submarines" and semi-submersible boats, before Iran deploys its Russian-built Kilo-class submarines and Chinese-built Huodong missile boats to attack U.S. warships, the source said."
Note this paragraph:-
In recent years, the Iranians have used these small boats to practice "swarming" raids on commercial vessels and U.S. warships patrolling the Persian Gulf.
That looks to be what they were doing here, swarming around the convoy all over the place. The fast attack craft he was on about was not military types but commercial speed boats fitted with explosives and suicide bombers at the helm.
(the fact we hear "We are coming at you, you will explode in a few minutes - gives more in the direction of what they were training for perhaps, as above)
The boats we see in the video are exactly this...commercial type speed boats.
He goes on to say that Iran has plans to close the St of Hormuz in any event that the US will strike nuclear facilities, ending trade for a considerable amount of time...
"Iran plans to begin offensive operations by launching successive waves of explosives-packed boats against U.S. warships in the Gulf, piloted by "Ashura" or suicide bombers.
The first wave can draw on more than 1,000 small fast-attack boats operated by the Revolutionary Guards navy, equipped with rocket launchers, heavy machine-guns and possibly Sagger anti-tank missiles.
In recent years, the Iranians have used these small boats to practice "swarming" raids on commercial vessels and U.S. warships patrolling the Persian Gulf.
The White House listed two such attacks in the list of 10 foiled al-Qaida terrorist attacks it released on Feb. 10. The attacks were identified as a "plot by al-Qaida operatives to attack ships in the [Persian] Gulf" in early 2003, and a separate plot to "attack ships in the Strait of Hormuz."
A second wave of suicide attacks would be carried out by "suicide submarines" and semi-submersible boats, before Iran deploys its Russian-built Kilo-class submarines and Chinese-built Huodong missile boats to attack U.S. warships, the source said."
Note this paragraph:-
In recent years, the Iranians have used these small boats to practice "swarming" raids on commercial vessels and U.S. warships patrolling the Persian Gulf.
That looks to be what they were doing here, swarming around the convoy all over the place. The fast attack craft he was on about was not military types but commercial speed boats fitted with explosives and suicide bombers at the helm.
(the fact we hear "We are coming at you, you will explode in a few minutes - gives more in the direction of what they were training for perhaps, as above)
The boats we see in the video are exactly this...commercial type speed boats.
Last edited by Razor61; 9th Jan 2008 at 13:46.
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Has Phalanx been given an IR sight/tv point and shoot capability?
I would have thought given it's rate of fire and elevated strutural position this would have been better placed at dealing with swarming attacks than the rather slow 25mm gun featured in a previous video.
Thank god the navy has rid itself of earlier type 22 frigates with no main gun, albeit having a 40mm Bofors.
The next time the Iranians try circling one of our ships we should launch a rib and tow 6 big matlows behind waterskiing like on Jaws 3, all dressed in very tight Borat style swimsuits, hairy brains bulging forthwith.
I would have thought given it's rate of fire and elevated strutural position this would have been better placed at dealing with swarming attacks than the rather slow 25mm gun featured in a previous video.
Thank god the navy has rid itself of earlier type 22 frigates with no main gun, albeit having a 40mm Bofors.
The next time the Iranians try circling one of our ships we should launch a rib and tow 6 big matlows behind waterskiing like on Jaws 3, all dressed in very tight Borat style swimsuits, hairy brains bulging forthwith.
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Tonker, Yes, a (British) dual fov TI Camera with a range in excess of blurble kilometres ideal for shooting down Pasdaran peasants. Don't know about FIAC but depression angles to cater for close in Cruise Missiles should do the trick.
A few dozen GPMG would be much better though - best weapon ever invented to deliver the Iranian wannabes to "Firdous" for their ludicrous 72 virgins and rewards which they will never see in Iran in this miserable life of theirs
A few dozen GPMG would be much better though - best weapon ever invented to deliver the Iranian wannabes to "Firdous" for their ludicrous 72 virgins and rewards which they will never see in Iran in this miserable life of theirs
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I'm sure many of you already know of this but it has been covered again in the OpEd section of today's IHT:
Full article here:
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/01/...on/edstern.php
In a war game in 2002, Lieutenant General Paul Van Riper of the Marines was called from retirement to lead a surrogate Iranian force defending against a U.S. attack. The general was recruited for his special talent, devising creative ways to fight stronger, technologically superior opponents.
Using motorbike messengers to keep his communications secure from high-tech eavesdropping, he launched a surprise attack on the U.S. Navy from a fleet of small, fast missile boats.
The barrage was intended to saturate U.S. anti-missile radars, allowing at least a few missiles to reach their targets. This worked perfectly. A U.S. aircraft carrier and 15 other warships went to the bottom.
It was a rout of the Donald Rumsfeld theory of high-tech warfare. In response, the Department of Defense stopped the game, changed the rules, and pretended nothing had happened. By so doing, the department reprised the first act in the worst naval defeat in U.S. history.
Using motorbike messengers to keep his communications secure from high-tech eavesdropping, he launched a surprise attack on the U.S. Navy from a fleet of small, fast missile boats.
The barrage was intended to saturate U.S. anti-missile radars, allowing at least a few missiles to reach their targets. This worked perfectly. A U.S. aircraft carrier and 15 other warships went to the bottom.
It was a rout of the Donald Rumsfeld theory of high-tech warfare. In response, the Department of Defense stopped the game, changed the rules, and pretended nothing had happened. By so doing, the department reprised the first act in the worst naval defeat in U.S. history.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/01/...on/edstern.php
Last edited by PPRuNe Towers; 10th Jan 2008 at 13:24. Reason: A matter of scale?
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Threat is completely fake.
Here is my opinion on this "incident"...
As a former Deck officer with a Western European Navo Navy, I feel the need to remind all of you here about one detail:
The "so-called" threat "We are coming to you, you will explode in 2 minutes"
is broadcasted very clearly. An IMPOSSIBLE thing on open-deck fast moving speedboats. It is therefore clear that this transmission did not come from any Iranian Speedboats.
As the Street of Hormuz is one of the densest navigated parts, it is therefore my professional opinion that the "threat" came from another ship in the vicinity. Incredibly stupid obviously, but a lot of deck officers and crewmembers only use "channel16" (the channel on which the threat was made In my opinion) for stupid remarks. eg. "pilipino monkey, Russian Donkey,etc..." It is therefore plausible that someone overheard the transmissions of the American fleet and decided to "participate".
I must stress again that the broadcast could NOT have come from these Iranian speedboats.
This is also the opinion of all my former collegues in the Belgian Navy, and we've been patrolling in that area before.
As a former Deck officer with a Western European Navo Navy, I feel the need to remind all of you here about one detail:
The "so-called" threat "We are coming to you, you will explode in 2 minutes"
is broadcasted very clearly. An IMPOSSIBLE thing on open-deck fast moving speedboats. It is therefore clear that this transmission did not come from any Iranian Speedboats.
As the Street of Hormuz is one of the densest navigated parts, it is therefore my professional opinion that the "threat" came from another ship in the vicinity. Incredibly stupid obviously, but a lot of deck officers and crewmembers only use "channel16" (the channel on which the threat was made In my opinion) for stupid remarks. eg. "pilipino monkey, Russian Donkey,etc..." It is therefore plausible that someone overheard the transmissions of the American fleet and decided to "participate".
I must stress again that the broadcast could NOT have come from these Iranian speedboats.
This is also the opinion of all my former collegues in the Belgian Navy, and we've been patrolling in that area before.
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Interesting, but not relevant, is it?
The fact that the Iranians came at the USN flotilla at high speed, zipped in and amongst their formation, as well as heaving things overboard in the path of the oncoming ships to cause them to change course repeatedly would seem to be enough.
Guess I'm a typical Yank because had I been in command, I would have opened fire. As mentioned previously, the USS Cole is still fresh in our minds.
Not firing was the correct call in this instance, but what if it had gone the other way and a USN ship now had a big hole in it and dead sailors? That captain would have rightly been court-martialed for hazarding his ship.
Also very interesting tactics used and written about, i.e., the war games and the Iranian defectors debrief. Another case of overwhelming a billion dollar system with low-tech. Gotta give 'em credit for brains.
The fact that the Iranians came at the USN flotilla at high speed, zipped in and amongst their formation, as well as heaving things overboard in the path of the oncoming ships to cause them to change course repeatedly would seem to be enough.
Guess I'm a typical Yank because had I been in command, I would have opened fire. As mentioned previously, the USS Cole is still fresh in our minds.
Not firing was the correct call in this instance, but what if it had gone the other way and a USN ship now had a big hole in it and dead sailors? That captain would have rightly been court-martialed for hazarding his ship.
Also very interesting tactics used and written about, i.e., the war games and the Iranian defectors debrief. Another case of overwhelming a billion dollar system with low-tech. Gotta give 'em credit for brains.
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It is therefore clear that this transmission did not come from any Iranian Speedboats.
Perhaps you Belgians should invest in throat mikes, then people might hear you whilst traveling at speed.