Close air support at its finest, from the squaddie's perspective
An offer of paying some of the costs of the A-10 upgrade in return for a 10 year lease of the aircraft? I'm sure there are a few spare airframes at AMARC that could be added to the program.
Give it 10 years and a couple of blokes in a porta cabin outside of Sandhurst ought to have the gear to do the job with whatever wonderful craft are in developement (still haven't worked out why you can't take the crews out of modern aircraft such as Typhoon and Apache and replace them with 250 kgs of comms and IT gear)
Give it 10 years and a couple of blokes in a porta cabin outside of Sandhurst ought to have the gear to do the job with whatever wonderful craft are in developement (still haven't worked out why you can't take the crews out of modern aircraft such as Typhoon and Apache and replace them with 250 kgs of comms and IT gear)
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Like Minded,
As I understand the ROE only allows a kill if the player is in the middle of a hostile act. This is why insurgents choose their firing points carefully and then walk away in full view of the place they have just mortared after the dirty deed is done. Or is that only the British ROE ? does the US operate to a different standard ? maybe the UK should too ?
In fact, stretching it a bit further, how about giving the Met police a couple of Apaches on loan
or do you think they would hose down a bus full of Brazilian students by accident ?
As I understand the ROE only allows a kill if the player is in the middle of a hostile act. This is why insurgents choose their firing points carefully and then walk away in full view of the place they have just mortared after the dirty deed is done. Or is that only the British ROE ? does the US operate to a different standard ? maybe the UK should too ?
In fact, stretching it a bit further, how about giving the Met police a couple of Apaches on loan
or do you think they would hose down a bus full of Brazilian students by accident ?
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>> As I understand the ROE only allows a kill if the player is in the middle of a hostile act.
This is not so. Have you never served before? The ROE you mention is only before any hostile act. If after the hostile act and the identified target walks away instead of surrendering, you clamp your jaws around his jugular and shake until his brains fall out.
If not you have a situation akin to the skit from Minister of Silly Walks, really.
This is not so. Have you never served before? The ROE you mention is only before any hostile act. If after the hostile act and the identified target walks away instead of surrendering, you clamp your jaws around his jugular and shake until his brains fall out.
If not you have a situation akin to the skit from Minister of Silly Walks, really.
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From my safety in Blighty the fighting in Afghanistan seems relativley low tech from the enemies point, are we not, with talk of putting guns on £80 million super high tech fighters and directing them against low tech tribeman, going about things the right way?
Are there aircraft in the world we could buy and re-equip. Reasonably in- expensively?
Are there aircraft in the world we could buy and re-equip. Reasonably in- expensively?
A valid question which is being asked elsewhere. Firstly, don't be suckered into thinking terry Taliban and his mates don't have access to some pretty decent threat systems. That's why we have to spend a fair bit of cash equipping our helos and mulit engined assets with advanced defensive aids systems (DAS).
Looking specifically at procuring a low cost CAS asset along the lines of a PC-21 or Super Tucano, there is undoubtedly some role for these assets in an Afghan type scenario. Their main limitation is their ability to persist around the battlespace and be retasked quickly.
Having flown in a C2 role over both Afghanistan and Iraq, it was and remains common for assets to be dynamically retasked. For instance, a USAF F-15E may be retasked from providing convoy route overwatch for NATO forces in Northern Afghanistan to providing CAS to UK ground forces in Helmand. Fast jets (even GR9s!) can get there quickly and have the ability to go and tank to maintain persistance.
A PC-21 type would take a lot longer (this is even a problem with the A-10 which would sometimes be overlooked for retasking simply because we knew it wouldn't get to an incident in time), and would be unable to tank. Yes you could fit AAR probes to a wing location but then you'd have to buy some C-130 type tankers which adds to the cost of procurement. It could be argued that the cheaper cost of a PC-21 allows persistence to be obtained by procuring more aircraft. However, to do this you'd need to stick turbo-prop CAS all over the place which is a very uneconomical way to use Air Power (and personnel). Deploy them to FOBs and hold them on GCAS? Trouble is you then immediately increase massively the force protection elements deployed out in the field and create numerous 'tethered goat' targets for the enemy!
Turbo-props also lack the sheer psychological impact of a fast and low 'show of force' which will often avoid the actual employment of weapons, and lack the sensors and payload of most fast jets. The sensor issue is another rarely acknowledged limitation of the A-10 which is a very good clear weather asset but severely limited when the weather clamps in.
In summary, cheap turbo-prop CAS would have some use in a modern COIN campaign, especially in an AFAC or SCAR type role. However, their slow speed and limited payload/sensors in particular limit their value in comparison to a combination of fast air, armed UAVs and AH.
If we were going to spend the cash on anything, a few AC-130s would be of more use. However, they'd be hugely expensive to operate unless we could get some sort of Ro-Ro 'Spooky-lite' capability for our Js.
(still haven't worked out why you can't take the crews out of modern aircraft such as Typhoon and Apache and replace them with 250 kgs of comms and IT gear)
Because you'd need a lot more than that to even come close to what a soft pink body or 2 can achieve. The technology is just not mature enough yet.
Have you never served before?
Please don't ever stop posting your comments on this board!! I know you're busy at the 'tip of the (combat flight sim) spear' seeing things that 'we can only dream of' but you brighten my day considerably with your descriptions of RoE application and kinematography etc!!!! Priceless!!!
Regards,
MM
Last edited by Magic Mushroom; 7th Jan 2008 at 22:03.
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Magic Mushroom,
Good staff paper on the merits of various types of air power, well explained.
With regards to ROE and " having served before" next comments to Like Minded refers
Like Minded,
Answer to the first question, yes, glad to get that out of the way.
Secondly I didn't want to get in to a complex discussion on ROE as we were apparently bantering, but as you want to;
In the case suggested by me, of the mortar tubes, if you can see them putting bombs in the tubes, or actually ID the tubes (threat) being carried by them, then go ahead. If however you see a bunch of guys moving in to dead ground, experience an indirect attack from that direction and subsequently see the same bunch of guys moving back the other way, you technically should not engage, as you have no way of knowing if they indeed actually were the firing team, if you believe that its OK to take a chance and remove them in that situation, then perhaps ROE should also include provision for the assassination of their known leaders and organisers in their own homes . And yes at times it does appear that ROE are drafted in the Ministry of Silly Walks, which is where IMHO the entire bloody war plan was drafted
Related to our exchange on the hoodie friend and the IED, it may be the case that the IED and the weapon were positively identified, but given that he was not an immediate threat, perhaps the option of lifting him for interrogation, or at least trying to, may have been a viable option. Maybe not, who knows, its a snapshot image, and a very dangerous one at that. If we need to kill in that manner, and maybe we do, there is little positive PR to be gained by putting it in the public forum.
Now can we drop the serious sh1t and get back to the banter ?
Good staff paper on the merits of various types of air power, well explained.
With regards to ROE and " having served before" next comments to Like Minded refers
Like Minded,
Answer to the first question, yes, glad to get that out of the way.
Secondly I didn't want to get in to a complex discussion on ROE as we were apparently bantering, but as you want to;
In the case suggested by me, of the mortar tubes, if you can see them putting bombs in the tubes, or actually ID the tubes (threat) being carried by them, then go ahead. If however you see a bunch of guys moving in to dead ground, experience an indirect attack from that direction and subsequently see the same bunch of guys moving back the other way, you technically should not engage, as you have no way of knowing if they indeed actually were the firing team, if you believe that its OK to take a chance and remove them in that situation, then perhaps ROE should also include provision for the assassination of their known leaders and organisers in their own homes . And yes at times it does appear that ROE are drafted in the Ministry of Silly Walks, which is where IMHO the entire bloody war plan was drafted
Related to our exchange on the hoodie friend and the IED, it may be the case that the IED and the weapon were positively identified, but given that he was not an immediate threat, perhaps the option of lifting him for interrogation, or at least trying to, may have been a viable option. Maybe not, who knows, its a snapshot image, and a very dangerous one at that. If we need to kill in that manner, and maybe we do, there is little positive PR to be gained by putting it in the public forum.
Now can we drop the serious sh1t and get back to the banter ?
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If a german company can make brand new FW190's for a few million a pop then surely we can sort out a few real Typhoons.
Thats a joke comment by the way LM.
The blokes on the ground would be glad of anything with wings and a gun to take the enemies mind of off the situation. Even the Gloster Gladiator at Old Warden. Note that I did not mention the Bleriot and some chap with an old Webley.....that would be plain daft wouldnt it?
Thats a joke comment by the way LM.
The blokes on the ground would be glad of anything with wings and a gun to take the enemies mind of off the situation. Even the Gloster Gladiator at Old Warden. Note that I did not mention the Bleriot and some chap with an old Webley.....that would be plain daft wouldnt it?
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Even the Gloster Gladiator at Old Warden. Note that I did not mention the Bleriot and some chap with an old Webley.....that would be plain daft wouldnt it?
I would add to MM's point:
A fast jet can do CAS, but a CAS "mudfighter" can't do counterair or air defense. And just because you're not doing the latter today does not mean that you will not do it in the lifecycle of a modern military aircraft.
A fast jet can do CAS, but a CAS "mudfighter" can't do counterair or air defense. And just because you're not doing the latter today does not mean that you will not do it in the lifecycle of a modern military aircraft.
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LikeMinded
What does that mean, exactly? Is that an extract from a Guard Commander's brief? If so, which planet?
The decision to return fire depends on a satisfactory answer to three questions;
Is my or my comrades' life in danger?
Is my pension in danger?
Are my promotion prospects in danger?
or
Who can afford the best lawyer
If after the hostile act and the identified target walks away instead of surrendering, you clamp your jaws around his jugular and shake until his brains fall out.
The decision to return fire depends on a satisfactory answer to three questions;
Is my or my comrades' life in danger?
Is my pension in danger?
Are my promotion prospects in danger?
or
Who can afford the best lawyer
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Please explain how the A10 becomes so disadvantaged when the weather clamps in in comparison to say the GR9?
I don't believe that I actually compared the GR9 and A-10.
However, the GR7/9 have enjoyed a couple of key advantages over the A-10 for quite a period in that the Harriers have had GPS weapons capability and a data link. In comparison the A-10s only had laser guided weapons which, in many scenarios prevented them dropping through cloud.
The A-10C upgrade aluded to by Green Knight is just starting to reach operational theatres and will add J series weapons to the aircraft as well as the SADL (although some have had a data link for a little while). When added to the already partially fielded and very capable Sniper XR targeting pod, this should address some of the A-10s limitations in terms of all weather capability.
Regards,
MM
Last edited by Magic Mushroom; 7th Jan 2008 at 22:42.
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Riskman,
I wouldn't take simple-minded too seriously. It is clear by his posts that he is a Jedi Walt of the highest order who has had little if any military service. However, his continued participation on PPRUNE should be encouraged for the following reasons:
1. He causes us all enormous amusement.
2. It means he's not hanging around outside primary schools.
I wouldn't take simple-minded too seriously. It is clear by his posts that he is a Jedi Walt of the highest order who has had little if any military service. However, his continued participation on PPRUNE should be encouraged for the following reasons:
1. He causes us all enormous amusement.
2. It means he's not hanging around outside primary schools.
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your assertions of American trigger-happiness and lack of IFF is completely wrong. Look at the following video:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=87f_1198860424
where they took extraordinary effort to identify a weapon, call back to the frontline lawyers and allowed a number to get away.
If I were one of the pair of Apache pilots, I would have thumbed the fire button repeatedly in the first few seconds when the truck was trundling along full of insurgents in the back, simply because they have already transgressed the Health and Safety law related to transport.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=87f_1198860424
where they took extraordinary effort to identify a weapon, call back to the frontline lawyers and allowed a number to get away.
If I were one of the pair of Apache pilots, I would have thumbed the fire button repeatedly in the first few seconds when the truck was trundling along full of insurgents in the back, simply because they have already transgressed the Health and Safety law related to transport.
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Boldface,
I apologise unreservedly for having me serious head on. I will try to keep things in perspective from now on.
Riskman,
I wouldn't take simple-minded too seriously.
I wouldn't take simple-minded too seriously.
I will try to keep things in perspective from now on.
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Oh my, the Apache is such a sexy beast (like Britney before her brain transplant), that it now has its own music video of its greatest hits.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=fb5_1200009506
Surely, this is a better brochure than any Discovery documentary.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=fb5_1200009506
Surely, this is a better brochure than any Discovery documentary.
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tucanos
I may be talking B0ll0k5 here! But im sure a couple of tucanos fitted with some sort of cannons and rockets with chaff and flares should do it. As long as its got a weapon sight and armour.
im sure if p47 and p51s and the good old typhoons and hurricane can do it im sure they can.
im sure the coloumbians have em
im sure if p47 and p51s and the good old typhoons and hurricane can do it im sure they can.
im sure the coloumbians have em
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http://www.embraerdefensesystems.com...multi_role.asp
heres a link to the tucano web site.
why cant we spend a little money upgrading the tucanos that are in storage already?
im sure it wouldnt be that much.
heres a link to the tucano web site.
why cant we spend a little money upgrading the tucanos that are in storage already?
im sure it wouldnt be that much.