Close air support at its finest, from the squaddie's perspective
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I think the real value of the Jag IDM was it's ability to hand off targets between aircraft, slave sensors straight onto them, and the SA provided to the pilot. So while it was manpower intensive for the FAC, it could speed engagement for the pilots. Additionally, the 9 line brief could potentially be relayed into the cockpit whilst the jet was still on GCAS or in transit.
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MM good point and I do agree,however it does take time which is great if you have the time to do it.Of course jet to jet handover whilst still at the CP or in transit the IDM would be great but today I think the SA is changing so rapidly the info may be stale by the time the jet checks in with the FAC. Hope you are well,I am the guy that was about to join your
gang.''Ops room Basra''
gang.''Ops room Basra''
I'd have expected the IDM/HMS combination to help the FAC know that the pilot and he were looking at/talking about the same target, saving time in getting the pilots eyes on target.
Interesting stuff, though.
Interesting stuff, though.
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It would be quicker if the FAC was not busy dodging rounds taking cover returning fire etc.I am not being dramatic by the way.Its just a radio chat with the pilot is possible whilst doing the above.If the jet has a pod then a quick Lat long and he has eyes on.To behonest a FAC has enough kit to lug around the battlespace (LTD,TACSAT/secureUHF,IZLID, NIGHT SIGHT RIFLE,AMMO,BATTS,RATIONS) without carrying a piece of kit that is very very handy on the odd ocasion.Its the world the FAC is living in at the moment.
Ignoring the fact that we're talking about the J-word (gone forever, and with many limitations) a senior J-word mate spoke very highly of the combination of HMS and IDM, and said that:
“With a known target position, the pilot simply plugs the coordinates into the navigation system, and then follows the HMS cueing to get ‘eyes-on’ to a target, confirming with the FAC that he is looking at the right target. Medium-level CAS used to take upwards of 20 minutes trying to get ‘eyes-on’, depending upon the terrain and the FAC’s ability to describe the target. It still does for every other air-to-ground platform. I estimate that we are typically hot on target in under 5 minutes. No one else can do that. During recent exercises in the UAE the Jaguars proved able to find a target and strike it with four aircraft within three minutes – something that might take more than five times as long with a formation of Harriers or Tornados."
It was also said that:
"Alternatively a Jaguar pilot could search for targets of opportunity, targets of unknown location or Time Sensitive Targets and, once found, instantly generate accurate coordinates using the HMS sightline, loading the co-ordinates into the nav attack system with a single stick-top button press, with no need to overfly the target or to point the aircraft’s nose at the target (‘nose-point’) to position it in the head up display. This meant that the aircraft could remain non-escalatory (not pointing directly at the intended target), avoiding warning the enemy, and avoiding having to dive and risk exposure to enemy MANPADS. The alternative, of using TIALD or Litening to locate and fix a target is much more long-winded, searching for the target via the pod’s much smaller field of view.
Target coordinates generated via the HMSS sightline could then be transmitted to the rest of the formation, or to a Forward Air Controller on the ground, via the datalink, allowing much more rapid engagement of time sensitive targets.
Receiving aircraft get a HUD message, make 2 stick top selections to view it on the AMLCD and can then, with one single button press, drop the coordinates into the IN and simultaneously send an ‘accept’ message back to the leader. Two further stick-top selections bring up steering to the target and weapon aiming.
The IDM also allowed the Jaguar to talk to any other IDM-equipped platform – notably the RAF’s Nimrod R.Mk 1, the USAF’s RC-135V ‘Rivet Joint’ and USN EA-6B Prowlers, as well as F-16CJs and F-16MLUs and AH-64 Apaches."
These sound like pretty compelling advantages, to me.
Perhaps there's an element of the needs of the pilot and the needs of the FAC are not always being the same - but it would seem that the ability to get the nine line direct to the cockpit display (rather than via radio, with the pilot copying it all down and confirming it) would always be best for the pilot, if not for the FAC.
This isn't a reason to "bring back the Jag" nor am I arguing for that. But it does seem that this would be a useful capability for other, in-service, CAS platforms.
And rather than dragging the thread off-topic with "give it up Jacko, the Jag's gone" abuse, why not explain to me why these equipment capabilities aren't useful, and won't be missed.
“With a known target position, the pilot simply plugs the coordinates into the navigation system, and then follows the HMS cueing to get ‘eyes-on’ to a target, confirming with the FAC that he is looking at the right target. Medium-level CAS used to take upwards of 20 minutes trying to get ‘eyes-on’, depending upon the terrain and the FAC’s ability to describe the target. It still does for every other air-to-ground platform. I estimate that we are typically hot on target in under 5 minutes. No one else can do that. During recent exercises in the UAE the Jaguars proved able to find a target and strike it with four aircraft within three minutes – something that might take more than five times as long with a formation of Harriers or Tornados."
It was also said that:
"Alternatively a Jaguar pilot could search for targets of opportunity, targets of unknown location or Time Sensitive Targets and, once found, instantly generate accurate coordinates using the HMS sightline, loading the co-ordinates into the nav attack system with a single stick-top button press, with no need to overfly the target or to point the aircraft’s nose at the target (‘nose-point’) to position it in the head up display. This meant that the aircraft could remain non-escalatory (not pointing directly at the intended target), avoiding warning the enemy, and avoiding having to dive and risk exposure to enemy MANPADS. The alternative, of using TIALD or Litening to locate and fix a target is much more long-winded, searching for the target via the pod’s much smaller field of view.
Target coordinates generated via the HMSS sightline could then be transmitted to the rest of the formation, or to a Forward Air Controller on the ground, via the datalink, allowing much more rapid engagement of time sensitive targets.
Receiving aircraft get a HUD message, make 2 stick top selections to view it on the AMLCD and can then, with one single button press, drop the coordinates into the IN and simultaneously send an ‘accept’ message back to the leader. Two further stick-top selections bring up steering to the target and weapon aiming.
The IDM also allowed the Jaguar to talk to any other IDM-equipped platform – notably the RAF’s Nimrod R.Mk 1, the USAF’s RC-135V ‘Rivet Joint’ and USN EA-6B Prowlers, as well as F-16CJs and F-16MLUs and AH-64 Apaches."
These sound like pretty compelling advantages, to me.
Perhaps there's an element of the needs of the pilot and the needs of the FAC are not always being the same - but it would seem that the ability to get the nine line direct to the cockpit display (rather than via radio, with the pilot copying it all down and confirming it) would always be best for the pilot, if not for the FAC.
This isn't a reason to "bring back the Jag" nor am I arguing for that. But it does seem that this would be a useful capability for other, in-service, CAS platforms.
And rather than dragging the thread off-topic with "give it up Jacko, the Jag's gone" abuse, why not explain to me why these equipment capabilities aren't useful, and won't be missed.
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Jacko,your spot on mate(in a way) I am sure IDM is better for air crew up at 15 grand with no known ''manpad threat'' however as the title of this thread says''from the squaddie on the grounds''point of view.From this squaddie on the ground's point of view,IDM is not really viable for me.Now of course If I was a FAC based on the english side of the Wales/England border sporting a nice pair of side burns with a nickname such as ''dinger'' IDM is perfect. For us council house FAC's that do not get on planned ops,we have to control A/C off the cuff with a ''5-line'' at best whilst we wait for the AAC to bail us out of the sh@t.
Best for the aircraft to have the kit, then, but for aircrew not to be reliant on it, and for FACs to have and use it as an extra club in the Golf Bag, when they're able to carry the full bag?
Is there no similar ground system to the HMS/IDM combo on the aircraft? A range finding scope and GPS unit combination (or something) to allow communication of targetting data to the aircraft quickly or is it all eyeballing the target and manually transmitting the co-ordinates?
Cyclone,
The capabilities of much of the kit used by FACs can be googled, but is perhaps best passed over here.
But you want to be able to pass information, quickly, reliably and safely in BOTH directions, not just from FAC to aircraft.
With this in mind, it would be interesting to know what difference PRISM IDM (which allows the transmission of imagery to and from the aircraft) would make for a FAC.
I guess we need someone with experience of Gold Strike F-16s to tell us that.
The capabilities of much of the kit used by FACs can be googled, but is perhaps best passed over here.
But you want to be able to pass information, quickly, reliably and safely in BOTH directions, not just from FAC to aircraft.
With this in mind, it would be interesting to know what difference PRISM IDM (which allows the transmission of imagery to and from the aircraft) would make for a FAC.
I guess we need someone with experience of Gold Strike F-16s to tell us that.
, think the Bone has Sniper now.
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I've had my attention drawn to today's Sun; http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...icle710650.ece
