National Service Aircrew
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National Service Aircrew
How many of us were there ?
I went to Hornchurch for pre-selection and was quickly wafted from Padgate to Compton Bassett for Air Signaller ground school. Then off to Swanton Morley for flying training in Ansons and then Percival Proctors. Off to St Mawgan for maritime reconnaissance traing in Lancaster MR3's. Up to Kinloss for conversion to Lockheed Neptunes and finally to 36 Sqn at Topcliffe to see out the remainder of my National Service.
All done in two years with a very high level of competence displayed by the various trainers.
There were of course navs and pilots who also qualified during N.S. but I have rarely come across many others who had this very interesting way of passing their two years. The RAF was still a very big organisation then and many of the personnel were ex-WW2.
After leaving I was recalled for reserve training twice - to trundle around in Vickers Varsities which enhanced my student income considerably.
Things seemed very laid back at that time !
I went to Hornchurch for pre-selection and was quickly wafted from Padgate to Compton Bassett for Air Signaller ground school. Then off to Swanton Morley for flying training in Ansons and then Percival Proctors. Off to St Mawgan for maritime reconnaissance traing in Lancaster MR3's. Up to Kinloss for conversion to Lockheed Neptunes and finally to 36 Sqn at Topcliffe to see out the remainder of my National Service.
All done in two years with a very high level of competence displayed by the various trainers.
There were of course navs and pilots who also qualified during N.S. but I have rarely come across many others who had this very interesting way of passing their two years. The RAF was still a very big organisation then and many of the personnel were ex-WW2.
After leaving I was recalled for reserve training twice - to trundle around in Vickers Varsities which enhanced my student income considerably.
Things seemed very laid back at that time !
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I believe that part of the deal was that NS pilots had to join their local RAuxAF Sqn for a period after leaving regular service. Not entirely sure of the terms and conditions, but have seen references to this in several books/publications. Anybody out there able to fill in the blanks?
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Al R - National Service turned all three services into huge training machines, turning over everyone on NS every two years. It was therefore possible to double the size of the military overnight with people who had been out for less than two years. While they would have lacked currency, they'd have been fairly useful very fast, and that was the need during the cold war.
Now we have a much bigger problem trying to man-up for anything. Retention may sound like a good thing, but if you keep people for so long that you don't train many new people, then you can't expand very fast. The capacity of the training system can quickly become a limiting factor.
In the late 70s the RN took RW pilots from their first day at Dartmouth to their first front-line ASW squadron in about 27 months, as there were no hold-overs.
Now we have a much bigger problem trying to man-up for anything. Retention may sound like a good thing, but if you keep people for so long that you don't train many new people, then you can't expand very fast. The capacity of the training system can quickly become a limiting factor.
In the late 70s the RN took RW pilots from their first day at Dartmouth to their first front-line ASW squadron in about 27 months, as there were no hold-overs.
On my Provost T1 basic course at Tern hill in 1960 we had two NS pilots that had rejoined. They were both FOs as against we APOs. They had done the training during NS and had continued with the RAAuxAF until it folded in 1957. Despite this they were both required to start flyng training again from scratch.
Me, I went from South Cerney to Tern Hill, to Oakington,to Gaydon and then to Honington without a weekend between them because I was travelling beween units. Apart from the normal grants I didn't have any leave for over two years. Not that it mattered, the pay was so bad that I couldn't afford to.
Me, I went from South Cerney to Tern Hill, to Oakington,to Gaydon and then to Honington without a weekend between them because I was travelling beween units. Apart from the normal grants I didn't have any leave for over two years. Not that it mattered, the pay was so bad that I couldn't afford to.
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NS Aircrew
Al R
Thanks for the interest. I think that the training was pretty good because in the end I was able to function usefully in the Neptune which meant operating two radar systems, the APS 20 search radar and the high definition sector scan attack radar, the 20 mill ball turret from which we could drop munitions via the gun/bombsight, the very good hf/mf radio equipment and the(basic) sonar stuff.
Don't know about retention rates. Most of my course were Scottish public school boys most of whom would leave I guess.
It was intensive training but at 18 it's what you need and can handle.
Thanks for the interest. I think that the training was pretty good because in the end I was able to function usefully in the Neptune which meant operating two radar systems, the APS 20 search radar and the high definition sector scan attack radar, the 20 mill ball turret from which we could drop munitions via the gun/bombsight, the very good hf/mf radio equipment and the(basic) sonar stuff.
Don't know about retention rates. Most of my course were Scottish public school boys most of whom would leave I guess.
It was intensive training but at 18 it's what you need and can handle.
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My father was an NS pilot. Having applied some thought to what he could do in NS that was going to take the least effort, he applied to the RAF to be an Air Gunner, this was about 1951. After telling them he was off to college for 3 years they said "fine, come back when you've finished".
1954, he reports back to be told they were not recruiting Air Gunners anymore, he would have to be a pilot! Aircrew Selection at Hornchurch, OCTU at Kirton-in-Lindsey, Provosts at Ternhill (we have both done circuits at Chetwynd, though many years apart!), Vampires at Oakington, TWU at Chivenor, then 605 (County of Warwick) Sqn at Honiley until the disbandment of the Aux Sqns in 1957.
He was offered the chance to stay in as a regular, but turned it down. Good job, really or I would not be here!
1954, he reports back to be told they were not recruiting Air Gunners anymore, he would have to be a pilot! Aircrew Selection at Hornchurch, OCTU at Kirton-in-Lindsey, Provosts at Ternhill (we have both done circuits at Chetwynd, though many years apart!), Vampires at Oakington, TWU at Chivenor, then 605 (County of Warwick) Sqn at Honiley until the disbandment of the Aux Sqns in 1957.
He was offered the chance to stay in as a regular, but turned it down. Good job, really or I would not be here!
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NS Flying
Al R would find your post interesting because it also suggests that a lot could be done in two years. I presume that they were piston Provosts on which your father trained. Ugly things which didn't seem to last very long.
I guess attitudes were different too because I remember a night sortie from Swinderby in a Varsity, the crew of which were all under 21. It was probably a carry-over from WW2 ideas about age and suitability. Mind you we lost a lot more aircraft in training accidents.
I guess attitudes were different too because I remember a night sortie from Swinderby in a Varsity, the crew of which were all under 21. It was probably a carry-over from WW2 ideas about age and suitability. Mind you we lost a lot more aircraft in training accidents.
Piston Provost was a great trainer for its day and was still at CFS in the mid 1960s' Excellent rate of roll and a good aerobatic machine. They spoiled it by putting a Viper in it!
One of my neighbours, I found out after knowing him for years, had been a national service pilot. He told me he flew F86 Sabres, and was probably the only national service pilot who had gone supersonic. He is a retired aerodynamicist, and he went to great lengths to explain how and why it occured.
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mstjbrown, you're right, they were Piston Provosts. Chetwynd is no more than a large grass field, (albeit quite flat), not sure how the Jet variety would have coped!
My father tells of one trip, that sounds a bit like Circuit Consol to me, where he flew from Ternhill to Chetwynd, did a couple of circuits until his instructor was happy. Instructor jumped out with a bag of golf balls and a club, and spent half an hour or so practicing his swing (or whatever it is you do on a game of swish-fcuk), before waving to my Dad to come and get hm and take them back to Ternhill.
If we could guarantee enough aircraft and instructors were available all day every day for the training fleets, we also might be able to get done in two years. They had enough of them, I think it was '54 the RAF lost about 150 Meteors and about 90 Vampires. There were 2 consecutive days when (I think) 7 and 8 aircraft were lost?
My father tells of one trip, that sounds a bit like Circuit Consol to me, where he flew from Ternhill to Chetwynd, did a couple of circuits until his instructor was happy. Instructor jumped out with a bag of golf balls and a club, and spent half an hour or so practicing his swing (or whatever it is you do on a game of swish-fcuk), before waving to my Dad to come and get hm and take them back to Ternhill.
If we could guarantee enough aircraft and instructors were available all day every day for the training fleets, we also might be able to get done in two years. They had enough of them, I think it was '54 the RAF lost about 150 Meteors and about 90 Vampires. There were 2 consecutive days when (I think) 7 and 8 aircraft were lost?
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Thanks very much for the answers. Wasn't Tony Benn a National Service pilot too? I suppose the national mindset was different then too, things weren't as complicated and as mentioned, the whole set up was just one big sausage factory. What strikes me too, is that then, a Group Captain had so much more responsibility. I wonder if anyone has been bored enough to work out how many aircraft a Groupie may have commanded then, and what rank you have to be now, to command a similar number.
Thats what they tried to tell me too, but I wouldn't have any of it, no sirree bob. Gunner or nothing, I told 'em and they got the message in the end. Boy, the amount of times I did bunny hops around Catterick airfield laughing at those plonkers flying overhead in their Lightnings and Buccaneers and shiny Tornados.
f#ckwit says: My father was an NS pilot. .. he reports back to be told they were not recruiting Air Gunners anymore, he would have to be a pilot!
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One NS pilot on the course ahead if me at Weston Zoyland was sent to instructors course at CFS as soon as he finished AFS.
Assuming he passed, he would have had less than 6 months left to serve.
Al R: It wasn't uncommon in fighter command for there to be 3 squadrons on a station, 16 aircraft each.
Undoubtably some places had more than that.
Assuming he passed, he would have had less than 6 months left to serve.
Al R: It wasn't uncommon in fighter command for there to be 3 squadrons on a station, 16 aircraft each.
Undoubtably some places had more than that.
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Norman Tebbitt was a RAF Pilot and I believe NS According to his autobiography he once failed to take off in a Meteor,(Waterbeach) ending up on the overshoot. Apparantly the elevator trim was set full nose down. Not sure if he ever flew again.
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National Service Pilots
I tried originally to join the RAF as a boy entrant in July 1948 but the selection board at RAF North Weald turned me down as medically unfit, however in January 1950 I was "called up" for National Service and reported to Padgate.
At Padgate we were informed that anyone who had school certificate could volunteer for aircrew selection. I hadn't got school certificate but convinced those selecting the candidates that my City and Guilds Motor Vehicle Mechanics certificate was equivalent, and was, in company with about 100 other intake members, sent to Hornchurch.
On return I found I had been selected for National Service Pilot training. As I had only requested the RAF for my NS because I didn't fancy the hairy shirts worn by the Army and had only asked for aircrew because the Hornchurch climate was preferable to Padgate in the snow this astonished me somewhat. However the selection was confirmed when I had to hand one of my pairs of issue boots in exchange for a pair of shoes. These displayed at the foot of the bed signified that you were a u/t birdman. Remember that at that time National Service was only eighteen months, so everything was somwhat hectic. No 1 ITS was at RAF Wittering until the end of March 1950 when we were sent on ten days leave reporting to Jurby on our return. Sadly I did not complete my training being completely out of my depth with such things as calculus but I have always regretted not having made full use of the opportunity which I was offered, I still love flying and took my PPL in 2005 as something else to do in retirement.
At Padgate we were informed that anyone who had school certificate could volunteer for aircrew selection. I hadn't got school certificate but convinced those selecting the candidates that my City and Guilds Motor Vehicle Mechanics certificate was equivalent, and was, in company with about 100 other intake members, sent to Hornchurch.
On return I found I had been selected for National Service Pilot training. As I had only requested the RAF for my NS because I didn't fancy the hairy shirts worn by the Army and had only asked for aircrew because the Hornchurch climate was preferable to Padgate in the snow this astonished me somewhat. However the selection was confirmed when I had to hand one of my pairs of issue boots in exchange for a pair of shoes. These displayed at the foot of the bed signified that you were a u/t birdman. Remember that at that time National Service was only eighteen months, so everything was somwhat hectic. No 1 ITS was at RAF Wittering until the end of March 1950 when we were sent on ten days leave reporting to Jurby on our return. Sadly I did not complete my training being completely out of my depth with such things as calculus but I have always regretted not having made full use of the opportunity which I was offered, I still love flying and took my PPL in 2005 as something else to do in retirement.
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So, even post war, a Group Captain of a busy area was in charge of hundreds of aircraft then Henry? In the war, was the station commander of a flying stn always a Groupie, and did Group Captains actually run a Group, which I have always assumed to be a collection of flying stns? If so, were Group Captains subordinate to other Group Captains, or was the position of Group Captain originally a title, like Commodore?
I wonder when sqn commanders became Wing Commanders, was it because of the increasing complexity and responsibility, or has there always been instances when they ran sqns? I imagine not, otherwise we wouldn't have had the rank 'Sqn Leader'.
Just idle thoughts.. no need for a definitive response I guess. This is an interesting thread. I find the idea that the RAF could train someone to do such a massive job, and then only expect to get a matter of a few month's top end service amazing. Its almost like the public sector mentality of the 70s, when efficiency/ cost/ cost efficiency had no concept, just the end result.
I wonder when sqn commanders became Wing Commanders, was it because of the increasing complexity and responsibility, or has there always been instances when they ran sqns? I imagine not, otherwise we wouldn't have had the rank 'Sqn Leader'.
Just idle thoughts.. no need for a definitive response I guess. This is an interesting thread. I find the idea that the RAF could train someone to do such a massive job, and then only expect to get a matter of a few month's top end service amazing. Its almost like the public sector mentality of the 70s, when efficiency/ cost/ cost efficiency had no concept, just the end result.
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Al R: In the period I referred to a Group Captain commanded a station which, as I said, could have 48 aircraft, plus a few odds and sods in station flight.
AVM commanded a group.
I was thinking about training establishments that might have had more than that, but that was just a guess, I never checked the numbers.
The FTS's seemed to be overrun with aircraft in the early 1950's when the Korean war build up was still in full swing.
N/F squadrons started having Wing Commander c/o's about the mid 1950's; day fighters carried on with Sqn. Ldr's for a while, but I cannot remember when they changed.
AVM commanded a group.
I was thinking about training establishments that might have had more than that, but that was just a guess, I never checked the numbers.
The FTS's seemed to be overrun with aircraft in the early 1950's when the Korean war build up was still in full swing.
N/F squadrons started having Wing Commander c/o's about the mid 1950's; day fighters carried on with Sqn. Ldr's for a while, but I cannot remember when they changed.
Norman Tebbit
goudie,
After leaving the RAF, Norman Tebbit was an Airline Pilot with BOAC for 13 years.
In 1970 he left flying for his career in politics.
Not sure if he ever flew again.
In 1970 he left flying for his career in politics.
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Only 18 Months
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A very interesting post. I was about a year after you and NS was extended to two years. For the extra six months though we were on the full regular pay rates which as a (very) young sergeant aircrew seemed generous.
By the way, as I'm sure you remember, your phonetic alphabet was different. I tried to convert your title to the older form but after item, jig and king my recollection gave out.
Al R was right about Tony Benn's having been an RAF pilot. He must have been NS for one can hardly imagine him joining the regular RAF.
A very interesting post. I was about a year after you and NS was extended to two years. For the extra six months though we were on the full regular pay rates which as a (very) young sergeant aircrew seemed generous.
By the way, as I'm sure you remember, your phonetic alphabet was different. I tried to convert your title to the older form but after item, jig and king my recollection gave out.
Al R was right about Tony Benn's having been an RAF pilot. He must have been NS for one can hardly imagine him joining the regular RAF.
Al, I just missed NS, but my first squadron was commanded by a Wing Commander (1963/66). By the same token he was responsible for a good many men. Not only did the type (Hastings) have a 5 man crew, and a manning ratio IIRC 4-5 crews per aircraft, but all the first line servicing guys were under his command as well. Thinking back he must have had at least 200-250 men in the Squadron perhaps more. As regards RAF officer ranks, I do not think that the ranks ever had a direct relationship to the post, scarcely more than say within a crew. As a Flying Officer captain I was usually out ranked by the other officers in the crew and invariably the most underpaid, as the NCOs, Flt Sgt or Master Aircrew pulled in a packet particularly as they usually were married while I was not. But I didn't mind, no really, I really didn't.... listen you have to believe me....