Questions for the CAS?
Joined: Nov 2000
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From: South Wales
Quite right – back on thread. Must remember not to allow thread drift – Hideous crime. Ban them I say…… Bandwidth so vital ……no shoot them instead….. Dammed swine!!!!!!
My questions to CAS:
Do you think the “Can Do” attitude still exists despite layer after layer of bureaucracy, accountability, niff naff rules and those that impose niff naff rules protecting their rear ends?
If you think the “Can Do” attitude still exists do you think that those that display it have a harder task these days?
Do you enjoy “Beer Calls” the way you use to?
And finally, how do you rate the quality and more importantly the attitude of “some” personnel serving in today’s Royal Air Force in comparison with those serving….say 20/25 years ago?
PM me with the answers if you would prefer.
My questions to CAS:
Do you think the “Can Do” attitude still exists despite layer after layer of bureaucracy, accountability, niff naff rules and those that impose niff naff rules protecting their rear ends?
If you think the “Can Do” attitude still exists do you think that those that display it have a harder task these days?
Do you enjoy “Beer Calls” the way you use to?
And finally, how do you rate the quality and more importantly the attitude of “some” personnel serving in today’s Royal Air Force in comparison with those serving….say 20/25 years ago?
PM me with the answers if you would prefer.
Joined: Jul 2006
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From: South of Old Warden
Morale
Oh dear! Have just read through all these posts and have come to the conclusion (rightly or wrongly) that today the RAF, in general, mirrors our society. I did my service (20years) in the '50's thro' early,70's and boy did we winge. Officers, messing, pay, work hours, bull
, you name it we winged about it, it was our right!
But it was all hot air in the crew room and generally went no further. Then, winge over and feeling far better, we all got on with the job.
Today, it seems the 'somebody owes me' mentality reigns supreme. Chaps you disappoint me, if you can't take joke...................................!
, you name it we winged about it, it was our right! But it was all hot air in the crew room and generally went no further. Then, winge over and feeling far better, we all got on with the job. Today, it seems the 'somebody owes me' mentality reigns supreme. Chaps you disappoint me, if you can't take joke...................................!
Last edited by goudie; 4th November 2007 at 22:05.
Joined: Aug 2001
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From: United Kingdom
But it was all hot air in the crew room and generally went no further
An AVM I once had lunch with answered many questions, but by far the biggest surprise was an unprompted statement that "The only people in the RAF beyond Wg Cdr, remain because they cannot get a job", which was a bit surreal at the time.
Joined: Jul 2003
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From: UK
Nice one 'goudie'!
An AVM I once had lunch with answered many questions, but by far the biggest surprise was an unprompted statement that "The only people in the RAF beyond Wg Cdr, remain because they cannot get a job"
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I would like to think though that people have a rant on the net and then get on with their life.
Joined: Dec 2001
Aviation Qualifications: Military
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From: The Roman Empire
Goudie
Ah, they rant and then just get on with their life...........
That will be why the PVR rate at some RAF stations is currently quoted as 16-17%. There are embargos to prevent people from leaving from certain locations. Most people in the RAF know at least 3 people close to them leaving in the near future. There was a thread on here not long ago about all the QFIs on the Nimrod OCU having PVRed. The numbers of career list Sqn Ldrs leaving (because they consider themselves financially disadvantaged compared to PA spine Flt Lt) being unsustainable to the extent the RAF is working on a fix. The number of Sqn commanders, Stn Cdrs and supposedly even 1*s, AOCs, etc currently PVRing is previously unheard of.............
Yes, if you can't take it/a joke/the heat/etc... then leave. Unfortunately that is exactly what they are doing.....or are you from the 'those aren't the sort of people we want in the RAF anyway' mindset.....!!
Most of the people who 'whinge' on here actually are just highlighting the way things are in the hope of getting some improvements, because the normal command chain isn't working, and believe it or not, they still "care" for a service they believe is going rapidly downhill.....
It is not what it was like in the 50s-70s!!!!
Ah, they rant and then just get on with their life...........
That will be why the PVR rate at some RAF stations is currently quoted as 16-17%. There are embargos to prevent people from leaving from certain locations. Most people in the RAF know at least 3 people close to them leaving in the near future. There was a thread on here not long ago about all the QFIs on the Nimrod OCU having PVRed. The numbers of career list Sqn Ldrs leaving (because they consider themselves financially disadvantaged compared to PA spine Flt Lt) being unsustainable to the extent the RAF is working on a fix. The number of Sqn commanders, Stn Cdrs and supposedly even 1*s, AOCs, etc currently PVRing is previously unheard of.............
Yes, if you can't take it/a joke/the heat/etc... then leave. Unfortunately that is exactly what they are doing.....or are you from the 'those aren't the sort of people we want in the RAF anyway' mindset.....!!
Most of the people who 'whinge' on here actually are just highlighting the way things are in the hope of getting some improvements, because the normal command chain isn't working, and believe it or not, they still "care" for a service they believe is going rapidly downhill.....
It is not what it was like in the 50s-70s!!!!
Joined: Nov 2000
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From: South Wales
It is not what it was like in the 50s-70s!!!!
So what was it like in the 50s-70s?????
I have a reasonable idea because my old man was serving then. He was also involved in Aden, Radfan and Malaya.
Only in those days you did not have the luxury of the internet and the media so conditions tended to go un-noticed by the public.
Joined: Jul 2007
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From: Germany
If CAS is serious about retaining people (which he has to be), how about the following:
1) Sort out the married quarters and the messes as priority #1. Without the support of the missus/partner in this modern world, the system wont last much longer. I am not talking about a half arsed effort. I am talking about quality accom with decent insulation, glazing and a small garden. Not crap Barratt show homes with paper thin walls, tiny rooms and postage stamp garden/ Anything less, people will continue to leave in droves.
3) get rid of the fitness test. Sack all those unable to deploy due to unfitness, sack det dodgers. Limit individuals to a maximum of 2 weeks service sports a year. I am sick of covering dets for individuals because they are swanning it up playing tennis/sailing/surfing/bungy jumping (sic) whilst the rest of us get to do even more time away.
4) Increase home to duty to 30p per mile minimum. MPs get 44p. Ever heard of inflation? Notice oil is priced now at $96 a barrel? well stop punishing us all for insufficient service quarters and having to live miles away from our unit in the only affordable housing for miles by penalising us as a result of HTD.
5) No income tax on det. Period. If you are out of the country in the sandy place, you dont pay income tax.
6) Same for council tax.
7) Bin PAYD. It is a good idea, once again poorly implemented. Dont give the sods control of the messes. The current system works, it doesnt need a complete revamp. All it will take is a list for people to sign when they eat. You dont eat, you dont pay. Any budget shortfall should be paid out of the def. budget.
8) Tell the government we wont do any future ops without the proper kit. Read into this: Servicable modern suitable aircraft, sufficient parts, sufficient servicing/ops personel, appropriate DAS, suitable Logistics, sufficient AT and SH. Its all well and good having 232 eurofighters, but 232 eurofigters cant move a single bag or single squaddie to where they are needed. Expiditionary warfare? The clue is in the name. You cant commit to it without being able to move lots of stuff very quickly over long distances, in a sustainable manner. You quite simply need to double up on our AT/SH assets. Anything less wont do.
9) Stop doing things "top Down". Start doing things "bottom up" Its the people below you that know what needs fixing. You might start to hear the truth if your senior officers are held responsible for decisions they make in post; to this end, Grp Capt posts and above should be a minimum of 4 years tour length. If they dont like it, tough. Service before self I am afraid, and the sevices needs far outweigh individual career progression.
I dont doubt CAS is tring his best, but unless some of the above, or something else as groundbreaking is delivered, I can see a critical mass being reached pretty soon from where we will be an inefective force.
1) Sort out the married quarters and the messes as priority #1. Without the support of the missus/partner in this modern world, the system wont last much longer. I am not talking about a half arsed effort. I am talking about quality accom with decent insulation, glazing and a small garden. Not crap Barratt show homes with paper thin walls, tiny rooms and postage stamp garden/ Anything less, people will continue to leave in droves.
3) get rid of the fitness test. Sack all those unable to deploy due to unfitness, sack det dodgers. Limit individuals to a maximum of 2 weeks service sports a year. I am sick of covering dets for individuals because they are swanning it up playing tennis/sailing/surfing/bungy jumping (sic) whilst the rest of us get to do even more time away.
4) Increase home to duty to 30p per mile minimum. MPs get 44p. Ever heard of inflation? Notice oil is priced now at $96 a barrel? well stop punishing us all for insufficient service quarters and having to live miles away from our unit in the only affordable housing for miles by penalising us as a result of HTD.
5) No income tax on det. Period. If you are out of the country in the sandy place, you dont pay income tax.
6) Same for council tax.
7) Bin PAYD. It is a good idea, once again poorly implemented. Dont give the sods control of the messes. The current system works, it doesnt need a complete revamp. All it will take is a list for people to sign when they eat. You dont eat, you dont pay. Any budget shortfall should be paid out of the def. budget.
8) Tell the government we wont do any future ops without the proper kit. Read into this: Servicable modern suitable aircraft, sufficient parts, sufficient servicing/ops personel, appropriate DAS, suitable Logistics, sufficient AT and SH. Its all well and good having 232 eurofighters, but 232 eurofigters cant move a single bag or single squaddie to where they are needed. Expiditionary warfare? The clue is in the name. You cant commit to it without being able to move lots of stuff very quickly over long distances, in a sustainable manner. You quite simply need to double up on our AT/SH assets. Anything less wont do.
9) Stop doing things "top Down". Start doing things "bottom up" Its the people below you that know what needs fixing. You might start to hear the truth if your senior officers are held responsible for decisions they make in post; to this end, Grp Capt posts and above should be a minimum of 4 years tour length. If they dont like it, tough. Service before self I am afraid, and the sevices needs far outweigh individual career progression.
I dont doubt CAS is tring his best, but unless some of the above, or something else as groundbreaking is delivered, I can see a critical mass being reached pretty soon from where we will be an inefective force.
Last edited by VinRouge; 1st November 2007 at 21:43.
Joined: Nov 2006
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From: South of Penge
Senior officers are held responsible for decisions they make in post; to this end, Grp Capt posts and above should be a minimum of 4 years tour length.
Interesting point.
How many of us are bitterly familiar with the :
"He cocked it totally, then moved on and up; leaving his successor to pick up the devastation" syndrome.
Interesting point.
How many of us are bitterly familiar with the :
"He cocked it totally, then moved on and up; leaving his successor to pick up the devastation" syndrome.
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 375
Likes: 6
From: with the wife
"He cocked it totally, then moved on and up; leaving his successor to pick up the devastation" syndrome."
Isn't that the position CAS now finds himself in? Would it be fair to say that the problems that have been highlighted in this thread haven't just happened overnight on the current gentleman's watch?
Isn't that the position CAS now finds himself in? Would it be fair to say that the problems that have been highlighted in this thread haven't just happened overnight on the current gentleman's watch?
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 191
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From: UK
Interesting Points VR!
Tell them to get stuffed when they insist we wear uniform all over the place
get rid of the fitness test. Sack all those unable to deploy due to unfitness
Limit individuals to a maximum of 2 weeks service sports a year. I am sick of covering dets for individuals because they are swanning it up playing tennis/sailing/surfing/bungy jumping (sic) whilst the rest of us get to do even more time away.
Bin PAYD
Grp Capt posts and above should be a minimum of 4 years tour length
Some really juicy stuff in there VR!
Joined: Jul 2007
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From: Germany
What's the alternative in a military Service? Flip flops and 'Hard
Rock Cafe' T-Shirts?
Rock Cafe' T-Shirts?
How do you get rid of someone for being unfit if there is no fitness test?
More 'Donut Eating, Playstation GamesMeisters'! They're trying to keep fit by doing sports, to pass their non-existant fitness test, in case they get 'sacked'! If you can't beat 'em .... join 'em!
It's what the troops wanted for many, many years .. and now they've got it. What people didn't realise was that the quality of food was based on a proportion of those who paid, not eating. Try getting a breakfast, 2 course lunch and dinner for £3 something! Very difficult, but it's what people wanted. So the Top Brass were listening on that one.
4 years with a bad Staish!!!!! Wow, that might hurt! Especially when people think he won't be listening because they're ALL trying implementing a 'Top Down' approach and looking after themselves and promotion..... APPARENTLY!
4mastacker, agreed completely. CAS, an outstanding character no doubt, IMHO has been handed what could be considered the most difficult brief as a CAS since WW2. Of course, it all comes down to money. And with fiscal tightening, decreasing tax revenues and a possible recession, it isnt going to come easily. Unfortunately, if this government want to project its strategy to the Far East, they are going to have to pay the appropriate price.
Last edited by VinRouge; 1st November 2007 at 20:52.
Joined: Feb 2007
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From: Oxon
VR,
Apart from your theory on the fitness test I thought yours was a top post. I believe a fitness test if PROPERLY implemented is a valuable tool in doing exactly what you advocate.........getting rid of unfit people. We know the current system is completely flawed however the notion of testing for fitness is sound.
As regards GF I think you should simply ignore him/her as there is definite evidence to support egdg's post 113..............TROLL
Apart from your theory on the fitness test I thought yours was a top post. I believe a fitness test if PROPERLY implemented is a valuable tool in doing exactly what you advocate.........getting rid of unfit people. We know the current system is completely flawed however the notion of testing for fitness is sound.
As regards GF I think you should simply ignore him/her as there is definite evidence to support egdg's post 113..............TROLL
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 191
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From: UK
VR
Nice comebacks ... I don't necessarily agree with them, but still good.
I was suggesting that some good exped training / skiing / mountaineering / sailing ... all round sporty activity, is open to all and has extremely good benefits. In my experience (being involved with RAF representative sport), there are a lot of guys out there who do respresent the Service (as it was a recruiting hook by the RAF Careers Office) and feel very guilty about doing so. In my opinion, they shouldn't.
You can't ask opinion and then fill in the gaps of those who don't bother in which ever way it suits you. That would be naughty.
As for SFFP:
He's got a thing about thinking that people who have a contrary view must be NCOs and/or airman ... not sure what it's about ... just ignore him. Barrack Room Lawyer I think ... doesn't like people disagreeing with her.
If you suggest if you cant beat them join them is the right idea, I suggest you are lacking the team ethos the RAF ingrained in me from day 1.
its what the majority of those who could be bothered, or in fact were able, to complete the survey.
As for SFFP:
As regards GF I think you should simply ignore him/her as there is definite evidence to support egdg's post 113