Questions for the CAS?
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Now was the person responsible for JPA being pushed through not a certain senior sir who's surname begins with L and the rest sounds like odour?
On the subject of those lower down the food chain not telling those higher up things are either $hitty, or about to get that way. Where I work the FS, along with numerous SNCOs/JNCOs told those above their vision for improvement was a disaster waiting to happen. Their response? Don't care, make it work or you can kiss goodbye to any advancement past your current rank Flight. Net result is one pi$$ed of section about to loose a very good FS and things about to get worse.
On the subject of those lower down the food chain not telling those higher up things are either $hitty, or about to get that way. Where I work the FS, along with numerous SNCOs/JNCOs told those above their vision for improvement was a disaster waiting to happen. Their response? Don't care, make it work or you can kiss goodbye to any advancement past your current rank Flight. Net result is one pi$$ed of section about to loose a very good FS and things about to get worse.
Reference the comments in post 63 about passing concerns, problems, issues, the true state of play, etc up the command chain - in many (most?)cases they already know.
In the past 15 months I have had a Sqn Ldr, Wg Cdr and Gp Capt all in my direct command chain PVR. People on pprune and e-goat complain that when they leave/PVR nobody asks them why. Has it never occurred to you that on some occassions it is because they already know most of the issues that have made you leave? I have had guys in my section PVR, and I already know without a lengthy interview most of the reasons why - they are the same problems that effect me daily!
What I am about to say now is anectdotal (spelling?), but I have heard of an AOC, 1 and 2*s, Stn Cdrs, Wg Cdr squadron bosses all PVRing, things that were unheard of until recently. Knowledge of this must surely have reached the top.
I believe the 4*s are aware of many of the problems, but that doesn't mean they can solve them. CAS can't fix JPA overnight, nor is he allowed to ditch it!
CAS is no doubt looking to build the RAF into what it needs to be by say 2015, that is part of his job, when we will have Typhoon, A400M, Astor, MRA4, Predator, etc.... But he also needs to be able to adequately man the RAF of 2015, with highly motivated, trained personnel, and from where I sit that part of the plan doesn't look like it is working!
In the past 15 months I have had a Sqn Ldr, Wg Cdr and Gp Capt all in my direct command chain PVR. People on pprune and e-goat complain that when they leave/PVR nobody asks them why. Has it never occurred to you that on some occassions it is because they already know most of the issues that have made you leave? I have had guys in my section PVR, and I already know without a lengthy interview most of the reasons why - they are the same problems that effect me daily!
What I am about to say now is anectdotal (spelling?), but I have heard of an AOC, 1 and 2*s, Stn Cdrs, Wg Cdr squadron bosses all PVRing, things that were unheard of until recently. Knowledge of this must surely have reached the top.
I believe the 4*s are aware of many of the problems, but that doesn't mean they can solve them. CAS can't fix JPA overnight, nor is he allowed to ditch it!
CAS is no doubt looking to build the RAF into what it needs to be by say 2015, that is part of his job, when we will have Typhoon, A400M, Astor, MRA4, Predator, etc.... But he also needs to be able to adequately man the RAF of 2015, with highly motivated, trained personnel, and from where I sit that part of the plan doesn't look like it is working!
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The Royal Air Force, in it entirety, is no different to a Sqn – It will have its ups and downs in morale.
You can have a Sqn where morale is superbly high. In the space of 6 months that morale can plummet; all it takes is a few key players (i.e. characters) to be posted and a few bad apples posted in. You know the ones I mean: they don’t attend beer calls or any Sqn functions, eager to get away as soon as possible and they will always find reasons why the job can’t be done rather than it can be done.
When I joined the RAF in 78, I joined an Air Force that had recently lost a lot of people, aeroplanes and good postings. The RAF had recently pulled out of the Far East. It was shrinking rapidly. In fact my father had left in 1977 and he was a little bit concerned that I was joining. All in all morale was on a bit of a low.
However, the eighties brought the Falklands, a surge in the cold war (cruise missile and Greenham Commen etc, etc) and Tornado taking over Germany. It climaxed in 1991 with GW1. Morale just got better and better. During the late eighties and early nineties morale was at a peak. However (and this is only my opinion) after about 1997 morale started to go down again.
As a Sqn person, in one of four corners of Bruggen and a short tour on the SH force, we noticed that more and more people came out of the woodwork to cash in on the morale party. They introduced more and more petty rules such as CCS, fitness tests, IIP and tick in the box QA programs. They even told us how we should deploy to a bare based airfield in the desert.
The biggest problem was the way they portrayed their argument; it was almost impossible for anybody to counter it. Everybody that worked hard and deployed for several months of the year away suffered.
Then it got worse after GW2. “Lean” became the new buzz word. Manpower in the most hardworking of places was cut. Again people were told how to do their jobs by people that did not have a clue. Change after change took place; Forward and Depth replaced 1st and 2nd line and suddenly Sqn engineers and junior aircrew just became a pool of manpower. Finally JPA came along……no need to say any more on that subject.
The non deployable RAF have a lot of bad apples at the moment and they really do not help the real hard workers that actually do the work. A lot of those bad apples sit here on pprune arguing, slagging off and pretending to be whiter than white. They very much have a glass half empty attitude. These people will leave one day and they will be replaced by characters that will play in the big team.
And finally, a message to “The Swinging Monkey”, with respect to my flawed argument. Glenn was at Bruggen and morale was mega high. From what I can gather everybody that has met him thinks he is a top bloke. He rose above the rest, not because he was a yes man but because he was/is good. But a single man cannot get rid of the disease of bad morale overnight.
I have left the Royal Air Force recently; morale was probably at the lowest that I have ever known in 29 years. But it will bounce back with leaders like Glenn. And all the bad apples will either retire or put their money where their mouths are and PVR.
My question to CAS:
When you get rid of the bad apples will you let me join again – cause I loved it?
You can have a Sqn where morale is superbly high. In the space of 6 months that morale can plummet; all it takes is a few key players (i.e. characters) to be posted and a few bad apples posted in. You know the ones I mean: they don’t attend beer calls or any Sqn functions, eager to get away as soon as possible and they will always find reasons why the job can’t be done rather than it can be done.
When I joined the RAF in 78, I joined an Air Force that had recently lost a lot of people, aeroplanes and good postings. The RAF had recently pulled out of the Far East. It was shrinking rapidly. In fact my father had left in 1977 and he was a little bit concerned that I was joining. All in all morale was on a bit of a low.
However, the eighties brought the Falklands, a surge in the cold war (cruise missile and Greenham Commen etc, etc) and Tornado taking over Germany. It climaxed in 1991 with GW1. Morale just got better and better. During the late eighties and early nineties morale was at a peak. However (and this is only my opinion) after about 1997 morale started to go down again.
As a Sqn person, in one of four corners of Bruggen and a short tour on the SH force, we noticed that more and more people came out of the woodwork to cash in on the morale party. They introduced more and more petty rules such as CCS, fitness tests, IIP and tick in the box QA programs. They even told us how we should deploy to a bare based airfield in the desert.
The biggest problem was the way they portrayed their argument; it was almost impossible for anybody to counter it. Everybody that worked hard and deployed for several months of the year away suffered.
Then it got worse after GW2. “Lean” became the new buzz word. Manpower in the most hardworking of places was cut. Again people were told how to do their jobs by people that did not have a clue. Change after change took place; Forward and Depth replaced 1st and 2nd line and suddenly Sqn engineers and junior aircrew just became a pool of manpower. Finally JPA came along……no need to say any more on that subject.
The non deployable RAF have a lot of bad apples at the moment and they really do not help the real hard workers that actually do the work. A lot of those bad apples sit here on pprune arguing, slagging off and pretending to be whiter than white. They very much have a glass half empty attitude. These people will leave one day and they will be replaced by characters that will play in the big team.
And finally, a message to “The Swinging Monkey”, with respect to my flawed argument. Glenn was at Bruggen and morale was mega high. From what I can gather everybody that has met him thinks he is a top bloke. He rose above the rest, not because he was a yes man but because he was/is good. But a single man cannot get rid of the disease of bad morale overnight.
I have left the Royal Air Force recently; morale was probably at the lowest that I have ever known in 29 years. But it will bounce back with leaders like Glenn. And all the bad apples will either retire or put their money where their mouths are and PVR.
My question to CAS:
When you get rid of the bad apples will you let me join again – cause I loved it?
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SRENNAPPS- You can have my job mate. I joined the RAF in 1988 and have seen good and bad times, but nothing like today.
I agree with your chronilogical history of Air Force morale, but fundamentally disagree with your outcome. I try really bloody hard to contribute, and to leave a place better for my having been there. I strive hard to ensure that I pass on everything of use, and nothing of little use to the Front-line aircrew I train.
I have the greatest of respect for the Engineers I know (very few post-leaning, as they have been culled to dangerous levels and taken off the squadrons).
I lead by example, taking my turn with the crappiest of tasks, and having an early night when I would much rather be getting in as the world rises. I defend my lads, and support my bosses(Flt/Sqn/Stn level).
I have 2 and a half years left, and am sure the RAF would dearly like me to stay to 55, but they have nothing to offer.
Ther is nothing the poster can offer me, but more of the same. As I spend each day trying to achieve success, I am blocked, sandbagged, blindsided and generally dragged down by a plethora of people who either don't understand, don't care, or just can't be bothered.
Everyday brings a new PI, regulation or target. Focus shifts and the trivial surpasses new levels of priority.
It is in short, like swimming the channel blindfolded and with your arms and legs tied, whilst men in boats shout contradictory advice.
Does CAS care? Yes, he probably does, yet it continues day after day. He stated earlier in the year that 'distraction' was an issue that bothered him. He must have been talking about lack of it, as it has sky rocketed this year and seems set to reach stratospheric levels.
I'm in the minority here. I love my job, wouldn't fly any other type (despite the crap lifestyle and danger that goes with it) and will continue to give 500%.
But come late 2010, I'm off and someone else can replace me. On our Flt, 45 % are LCR and 20 % first tourists. Good luck!
WM
I agree with your chronilogical history of Air Force morale, but fundamentally disagree with your outcome. I try really bloody hard to contribute, and to leave a place better for my having been there. I strive hard to ensure that I pass on everything of use, and nothing of little use to the Front-line aircrew I train.
I have the greatest of respect for the Engineers I know (very few post-leaning, as they have been culled to dangerous levels and taken off the squadrons).
I lead by example, taking my turn with the crappiest of tasks, and having an early night when I would much rather be getting in as the world rises. I defend my lads, and support my bosses(Flt/Sqn/Stn level).
I have 2 and a half years left, and am sure the RAF would dearly like me to stay to 55, but they have nothing to offer.
Ther is nothing the poster can offer me, but more of the same. As I spend each day trying to achieve success, I am blocked, sandbagged, blindsided and generally dragged down by a plethora of people who either don't understand, don't care, or just can't be bothered.
Everyday brings a new PI, regulation or target. Focus shifts and the trivial surpasses new levels of priority.
It is in short, like swimming the channel blindfolded and with your arms and legs tied, whilst men in boats shout contradictory advice.
Does CAS care? Yes, he probably does, yet it continues day after day. He stated earlier in the year that 'distraction' was an issue that bothered him. He must have been talking about lack of it, as it has sky rocketed this year and seems set to reach stratospheric levels.
I'm in the minority here. I love my job, wouldn't fly any other type (despite the crap lifestyle and danger that goes with it) and will continue to give 500%.
But come late 2010, I'm off and someone else can replace me. On our Flt, 45 % are LCR and 20 % first tourists. Good luck!
WM
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That is the crux of the problem, we are going to let the poster above and hundreds like them walk away saddened, disillusioned and feeling thoroughly let down. Instead of addressing his issues and encouraging him to stay and continue to give his very best, which we desperately need we will ignore him and lose another one of our most valuable assets.
No I do not know him but I do know many like him and despair at where we are heading.
No I do not know him but I do know many like him and despair at where we are heading.
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Gasfitter,
I take it you are Navy by the use of 'Crabfats'.
I take it you are Navy by the use of 'Crabfats'.
Firstly, unless I missed the Carrier Group on Kajaki Dam, what do you know about the Taliban?
Secondly, why do you feel the need to post on a thread concerning the CAS?
Knob off and find your own argument. This is ours.
CAS can't fix JPA overnight, nor is he allowed to ditch it!
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Gasfitter,
Are you saying there is no level to which the service could sink before you would express your dissatisfaction? You'll just take the pain no matter what damage you see inflicted by crass policies.
Everyone has done a hell of a lot of 'just getting on with it' over the past few years and none of our leaders have drawn a line and said "enough" as the politicians push more commitments and less resources. To me that would indicate that this will continue until, one way or another, they get finally get the message that we can take no more.
With such wet middle management, I think some folks hope that sentiments posted on boards like these might actually get through to the upper management. As much as journalists are overtly reviled, some of the recent articles that seek to reflect the current sorry state of the armed forces must have have had some research based on internet forums.
You're assertion that our despair gives succour to enemies may carry some truth. But who is responsible for the morale of the troops? The troops themselves! The responsibility for the state of our armed forces lies with the government and the top servicemen. It must truly be a first for the modern British Military to be asked to fight nasty 2 wars abroad by a government who won't provide sufficient money to do so. After these 2 wars are over we will be totally spent. Furthermore, how do you think Gordon Brown will view the defence budget with no ongoing operations.
Don't blame servicemen for complaining when it is the only form of protest available short of leaving. If everyone that you class as a "whinger" did leave, your job would become intolerable and you would leave. Critical Mass I think they call it.
Are you saying there is no level to which the service could sink before you would express your dissatisfaction? You'll just take the pain no matter what damage you see inflicted by crass policies.
Everyone has done a hell of a lot of 'just getting on with it' over the past few years and none of our leaders have drawn a line and said "enough" as the politicians push more commitments and less resources. To me that would indicate that this will continue until, one way or another, they get finally get the message that we can take no more.
With such wet middle management, I think some folks hope that sentiments posted on boards like these might actually get through to the upper management. As much as journalists are overtly reviled, some of the recent articles that seek to reflect the current sorry state of the armed forces must have have had some research based on internet forums.
You're assertion that our despair gives succour to enemies may carry some truth. But who is responsible for the morale of the troops? The troops themselves! The responsibility for the state of our armed forces lies with the government and the top servicemen. It must truly be a first for the modern British Military to be asked to fight nasty 2 wars abroad by a government who won't provide sufficient money to do so. After these 2 wars are over we will be totally spent. Furthermore, how do you think Gordon Brown will view the defence budget with no ongoing operations.
Don't blame servicemen for complaining when it is the only form of protest available short of leaving. If everyone that you class as a "whinger" did leave, your job would become intolerable and you would leave. Critical Mass I think they call it.
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BP
Dissatisfaction should be expressed. It's good for an organization to have healthy debate on what is good and what is not. I just don't think that a public forum is the best way, as it gives 'oxygen of hope' to those who we oppose. There are better ways.
Dissatisfaction should be expressed. It's good for an organization to have healthy debate on what is good and what is not. I just don't think that a public forum is the best way, as it gives 'oxygen of hope' to those who we oppose. There are better ways.
Gasfitter and BP you make good points, but I will ask Gasfitter;
If historically all those still in/recently left the service who are/have been highlighting all these problems to their management (who patently do not pass them upwards) and get threatened (promotion, posting etc) or ignored as morale and loss of life continues due to lack of commitment/resources/interest from those at the top, could you please enlighten us all on what those 'better ways of doing this' are that you elude to, or is the forum not the place that you can detail the right way in which the current members should get their concerns aired and possibly sorted.
If historically all those still in/recently left the service who are/have been highlighting all these problems to their management (who patently do not pass them upwards) and get threatened (promotion, posting etc) or ignored as morale and loss of life continues due to lack of commitment/resources/interest from those at the top, could you please enlighten us all on what those 'better ways of doing this' are that you elude to, or is the forum not the place that you can detail the right way in which the current members should get their concerns aired and possibly sorted.
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Gasfitter - I find you very odd!
In some ways, I admire your dogged loyalty, despite the fact you seem to be a lone voice. In a way, it is an endearing quality.
But referring to your own service as 'whinging crabfats' is har to reconcile with the above.
It's almost as if you love the RAF and the CAS, but none of the other members, and certainly none of the ones with an opinion.
Good luck when we have all gone. It may well change for the better as new blood enters with no knowledge of what the RAF used to be, but I don't think so.
Apologies for accusing you of being RN, but you do give that impression.
WM
In some ways, I admire your dogged loyalty, despite the fact you seem to be a lone voice. In a way, it is an endearing quality.
But referring to your own service as 'whinging crabfats' is har to reconcile with the above.
It's almost as if you love the RAF and the CAS, but none of the other members, and certainly none of the ones with an opinion.
Good luck when we have all gone. It may well change for the better as new blood enters with no knowledge of what the RAF used to be, but I don't think so.
Apologies for accusing you of being RN, but you do give that impression.
WM
Dear CAS,
1. Have you ever heard of the word "No"?
2. If the answer to 1 is "Yes", have you ever used the word "No" to politicians?
3. If not, why not?
4. Do you know what happens when you stretch things beyond their elastic limit?
5. If not, why not?
1. Have you ever heard of the word "No"?
2. If the answer to 1 is "Yes", have you ever used the word "No" to politicians?
3. If not, why not?
4. Do you know what happens when you stretch things beyond their elastic limit?
5. If not, why not?
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Left in Sep and have just logged on to see how you're coping without me. Same old same old it appears. Saddamslovechild suggested utilising the AFBLT. It appears to have escaped everyones notice but the AFBLT was disbanded in 2005 following, but "apparently" unrelated to, a highly critical report from the team representing the views of the very people with whom CAS now wishes to engage. He wasn't CAS then, of course, but his current boss was and I doubt that the reluctance of the airships (or is that heads) to acknowledge bad news has improved with time. It was the first report not to be released and perhaps that tells you something.
Accept it guys. The military will always be the poor reltion of the public sector. Tommy this etc, and each of us, sorry you, has to weigh up the pros and cons and make a decision about staying in or not. If you choose to stay then stay safe and squeeze every last drop out that you can but remember: no one likes a miserable bugger so lighten up.
Accept it guys. The military will always be the poor reltion of the public sector. Tommy this etc, and each of us, sorry you, has to weigh up the pros and cons and make a decision about staying in or not. If you choose to stay then stay safe and squeeze every last drop out that you can but remember: no one likes a miserable bugger so lighten up.
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In some ways, I admire your dogged loyalty, despite the fact you seem to be a lone voice. In a way, it is an endearing quality.
But referring to your own service as 'whinging crabfats' is har to reconcile with the above.
It's almost as if you love the RAF and the CAS, but none of the other members, and certainly none of the ones with an opinion.
Good luck when we have all gone. It may well change for the better as new blood enters with no knowledge of what the RAF used to be, but I don't think so.
Apologies for accusing you of being RN, but you do give that impression.
Those who think that the Heads of the three Services are not involved in politics are, in my opinion very, very naive in the extreme.
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Gas Fitter
Ref your comment.......
'I just don't think that a public forum is the best way, as it gives 'oxygen of hope' to those who we oppose'
Why are you still here ?? Or are you some secret 'mole' for CAS maybe???
hmmmmmmmmmm
TSM
Ref your comment.......
'I just don't think that a public forum is the best way, as it gives 'oxygen of hope' to those who we oppose'
Why are you still here ?? Or are you some secret 'mole' for CAS maybe???
hmmmmmmmmmm
TSM
Gasfitter,
WOKKAMEISTER Said.
The RAF does not have a monopoly on going to hot and sandy places. Last autumn 50% of UK forces in Afghanistan were Royal Navy and a fresh element has just deployed.
So why do you need to apologise for suggesting he was Navy?
Lieutenant Andrew McLachlan, of 40 Commando said:
"This deployment is well suited to the nature and ethos of the Royal Marines. Military force can only be part of the solution. We will be there to help with the development and reconstruction of the area, but are robust enough to stop those intent on undermining the work already achieved. Conditions will be tough but 40 Commando are well equipped and well prepared for the task."
Working alongside their colleagues from the Army and RAF, the Royal Marines will also be joined by a large deployment of the Royal Navy's Fleet Air Arm who will be supporting the efforts on the ground.
The Royal Marine Commandos will also work alongside and support the Afghan security forces as they continue to develop and take on a greater role in providing security to the province.
It is a tri-service and multi-national operation.
Keep safe and stop wingeing
WOKKAMEISTER Said.
I take it you are Navy by the use of 'Crabfats'.
Firstly, unless I missed the Carrier Group on Kajaki Dam, what do you know about the Taliban?
Firstly, unless I missed the Carrier Group on Kajaki Dam, what do you know about the Taliban?
So why do you need to apologise for suggesting he was Navy?
Lieutenant Andrew McLachlan, of 40 Commando said:
"This deployment is well suited to the nature and ethos of the Royal Marines. Military force can only be part of the solution. We will be there to help with the development and reconstruction of the area, but are robust enough to stop those intent on undermining the work already achieved. Conditions will be tough but 40 Commando are well equipped and well prepared for the task."
Working alongside their colleagues from the Army and RAF, the Royal Marines will also be joined by a large deployment of the Royal Navy's Fleet Air Arm who will be supporting the efforts on the ground.
The Royal Marine Commandos will also work alongside and support the Afghan security forces as they continue to develop and take on a greater role in providing security to the province.
It is a tri-service and multi-national operation.
Keep safe and stop wingeing
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Or are you some secret 'mole' for CAS maybe???