Questions for the CAS?
I am afraid we must face the fact the the Armed Forces (and the Royal Air Force in particular ) have been 'abandoned' by the politicians, the public and most disgracefully of all by the 'grownups'. I have no doubt that most of our senior officers know the true state of affairs but do not speak out for fear of the impact on their careers.
Some of course will have both eyes on a post RAF career with a defence contractor, a path well trodden by retired senior RAF officers.
Some of course will have both eyes on a post RAF career with a defence contractor, a path well trodden by retired senior RAF officers.
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I love the way that only politicians and senior officers are blamed for everything. Politicians seem to be held totally responsible and the top senior officers are accused of being spineless and only interested in their careers.
Maybe we (sorry you – I left in May) should look a little bit closer to home:
How many SNCOs and WOs tell their JengOs that the RAF is in meltdown?
How many JengOs tell their SengOs how pi$$ed off the lads are.
How many SengOs tell OC Sqn or OC Eng (Forward or Depth?) how hacked off their entire Sqn is.
How many OC Sqns or OC Eng’s tell the Stn Cdr’s that there might be a problem with morale on a particular Sqn.
How many Stn Cdr’s tell the AOC that their station is overworked and undermanned & basically can’t cope anymore?
How many AOCs tell Glenn how it really is???
They can’t because nobody gets the truth from the bottom.
Two problems exist:
1. There will always be a “Can Do” attitude from those that care and they will always sort it. This hides the problem.
2. Those that only play at being in the RAF will always suck up to their boss and tell them what they want to here - whatever the rank.
I think a few of you that post here and make such strong comments need to take a long hard look on just how brave you are to tell your Bosses how it is – ????
I knew Glenn when he was Stn Cdr at Bruggen – and he was a bloody good bloke.
Finally pause for thought – just how many top Civil Servant type chappies really care about what goes on at the front line. They are the ones that make the real decisions. They dictate the size of our forces, they dictate where the money is spent, and they take the credit when it all goes well and destroy military careers when it all goes wrong. And then they sit back and watch the politicians and senior officers take all the flack.
Regards
Maybe we (sorry you – I left in May) should look a little bit closer to home:
How many SNCOs and WOs tell their JengOs that the RAF is in meltdown?
How many JengOs tell their SengOs how pi$$ed off the lads are.
How many SengOs tell OC Sqn or OC Eng (Forward or Depth?) how hacked off their entire Sqn is.
How many OC Sqns or OC Eng’s tell the Stn Cdr’s that there might be a problem with morale on a particular Sqn.
How many Stn Cdr’s tell the AOC that their station is overworked and undermanned & basically can’t cope anymore?
How many AOCs tell Glenn how it really is???
They can’t because nobody gets the truth from the bottom.
Two problems exist:
1. There will always be a “Can Do” attitude from those that care and they will always sort it. This hides the problem.
2. Those that only play at being in the RAF will always suck up to their boss and tell them what they want to here - whatever the rank.
I think a few of you that post here and make such strong comments need to take a long hard look on just how brave you are to tell your Bosses how it is – ????
I knew Glenn when he was Stn Cdr at Bruggen – and he was a bloody good bloke.
Finally pause for thought – just how many top Civil Servant type chappies really care about what goes on at the front line. They are the ones that make the real decisions. They dictate the size of our forces, they dictate where the money is spent, and they take the credit when it all goes well and destroy military careers when it all goes wrong. And then they sit back and watch the politicians and senior officers take all the flack.
Regards
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My only involvement with CAS came about with the Herc foam campaign. I watched him brief the Parliamentary Defence Committee that he would never send a Herc crew against a threat it could not counter. (Afg Deployment, 2006). At the time, no RAF Hercs had foam and the J had a very basic DAS. I was perplexed, how could CAS say this? Why should I believe that he has fought tooth and nail for the RAF, when he couldn't even say that Herc crews had no protection against bullets? Since then every Herc going sausage has been installed with foam and the J is in the process of getting a DAS upgrade.
What exactly is so difficult about telling the truth to politicians? Why do military leaders have to play the same games?
If Glenn stepped forward and explained what is wrong he wouldn't be saying anything new, but it would be extremely powerful coming from the horses mouth.
What exactly is so difficult about telling the truth to politicians? Why do military leaders have to play the same games?
If Glenn stepped forward and explained what is wrong he wouldn't be saying anything new, but it would be extremely powerful coming from the horses mouth.
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The crux of the problem is that the troops have too much pride to just sit back and let things get so bad the grown ups take notice... 99% of people I work with ALL tell seniors our problems, we all want to make things better, easier, more efficient, less time consuming, etc etc etc. The trouble is, no one ever LISTENS 
Just look at the eng wing at Lyneham, the HLS/FLECS lean project got pushed through against the advice of countless sac's/cpls/sgts/fs/wo/jengos/sengos etc etc. 2 years later it was canned as it was a disaster, but STILL no one would admit it was a complete mistake..... we are still suffering from that now. And again, senior staff must know that manpower is at a low, dets are at a high, just look at the threads on here.. do they think we make these threads for fun?
Why has it taken years of pressure, a number of tragic deaths and a few frame losses and lots and lots of hard work by Nigegilb amonst others to get the BASIC protection for the herc fleet?? why was it not put in place pro-activley?
why do none of the senior officer ranks ever come and speak to people on thier own, instead of with the entourage of staish, swo, and about 20 other hangers on?? No one will speak thier mind as they will get labelled as a whinger for airing thier views. Now this sounds hypocritical as this is what we are asking our seniors to do, but we need to be sure that the chain of command works for us, not just ignore us and do what they think is best regardless of anything else......
Just look at the eng wing at Lyneham, the HLS/FLECS lean project got pushed through against the advice of countless sac's/cpls/sgts/fs/wo/jengos/sengos etc etc. 2 years later it was canned as it was a disaster, but STILL no one would admit it was a complete mistake..... we are still suffering from that now. And again, senior staff must know that manpower is at a low, dets are at a high, just look at the threads on here.. do they think we make these threads for fun?
Why has it taken years of pressure, a number of tragic deaths and a few frame losses and lots and lots of hard work by Nigegilb amonst others to get the BASIC protection for the herc fleet?? why was it not put in place pro-activley?
why do none of the senior officer ranks ever come and speak to people on thier own, instead of with the entourage of staish, swo, and about 20 other hangers on?? No one will speak thier mind as they will get labelled as a whinger for airing thier views. Now this sounds hypocritical as this is what we are asking our seniors to do, but we need to be sure that the chain of command works for us, not just ignore us and do what they think is best regardless of anything else......
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SRENNAPS ,
Are you saying we have commanders who are so out of touch with reality, they a) don't know the truth and don't know what you're saying either, or b) they don't know how the system works?
That worries me.
Are you saying we have commanders who are so out of touch with reality, they a) don't know the truth and don't know what you're saying either, or b) they don't know how the system works?
That worries me.
SRENNAPS
Wise words.
And whilst I've been typing there have been two responses:
Al R - we have weak commanders out of touch with reality at all levels. But they know how the system works - keep your nose clean, perhaps be a yes man, and bingo you're promoted. Maybe that is true of some or all of our most senior commanders but having worked for CAS at various stages of his career I would like to think he is the exception.
KEng - do you think the Chiefs like having the stn entourage with them? I would suggest that more often than not the stn cdr, SWO etc are there to make sure no one screws their careers or prevents their MBE/OBE/CBE etc! Best thing I ever saw was seeing a 4* direct the hangers leave the crewroom so he could have an open, "no holds barred", chat with those present (with ranks from SAC to sqn ldr). He got the no holds chat he wanted, ensured his ADC took notes, and responded to the issues in writing. Sadly said 4* gets little respect on this forum (3 letter surname - say no more
)
How many people who have demanded CAS falls on his sword ticked the "I have no comment to make" on their annual report and then bitched and moaned about their report in the bar? Or stood up to be counted at the numerous roadshows (albeit the CASWO / AFPRB or whatever). How many of those who have PVR'd have sent a formal letter to the Air Sec to formally state their reasons for leaving (as opposed to waiting for someone from on high to wonder why they are leaving and then bitch when they didn't ask). How many of those demanding CAS speaks his mind are actually armchair Air Marshals?
How many people who have bitched about the current CAS have actually worked for him? I have at sqn, stn as well as in an operational theatre. And I guess I still work for him seeing as he is CAS. He knows his stuff and how to work his political masters (as well as his Fish Head and Pongo oppos). Yes he may bang on about Typhoon at times but in the big Defence scheme of things he has to balance the future with the present. SH is a Land thing. It is nothing more than a tank that flies to them. Maybe the answer ther would be to transfer all SH aircrew and groundcrew to the AAC (joking - dons helmet!
). Don't forget nothing comes quickly in the Air Force (fnarr fnarr). Most of our budget for the forseeable future is already spent and even if we were able to free up considerable sums of cash you can't just pop down to the supermarket and pick up a load of SH/AT/UAV etc. How long has it taken to get Pred B? If any of you armchair Air Marshals can forsee the op situation in 10 years then please drop by Whitehall and let them know your wisdom because I'm sure that in 1997 nobody thought we'd be up to our necks in Irag and Afghanistan.
My only question to him - if you bowed to the armchair Air Marshals and resigned, who would you want to replace you?
Wise words.
And whilst I've been typing there have been two responses:Al R - we have weak commanders out of touch with reality at all levels. But they know how the system works - keep your nose clean, perhaps be a yes man, and bingo you're promoted. Maybe that is true of some or all of our most senior commanders but having worked for CAS at various stages of his career I would like to think he is the exception.
KEng - do you think the Chiefs like having the stn entourage with them? I would suggest that more often than not the stn cdr, SWO etc are there to make sure no one screws their careers or prevents their MBE/OBE/CBE etc! Best thing I ever saw was seeing a 4* direct the hangers leave the crewroom so he could have an open, "no holds barred", chat with those present (with ranks from SAC to sqn ldr). He got the no holds chat he wanted, ensured his ADC took notes, and responded to the issues in writing. Sadly said 4* gets little respect on this forum (3 letter surname - say no more
)How many people who have demanded CAS falls on his sword ticked the "I have no comment to make" on their annual report and then bitched and moaned about their report in the bar? Or stood up to be counted at the numerous roadshows (albeit the CASWO / AFPRB or whatever). How many of those who have PVR'd have sent a formal letter to the Air Sec to formally state their reasons for leaving (as opposed to waiting for someone from on high to wonder why they are leaving and then bitch when they didn't ask). How many of those demanding CAS speaks his mind are actually armchair Air Marshals?
How many people who have bitched about the current CAS have actually worked for him? I have at sqn, stn as well as in an operational theatre. And I guess I still work for him seeing as he is CAS. He knows his stuff and how to work his political masters (as well as his Fish Head and Pongo oppos). Yes he may bang on about Typhoon at times but in the big Defence scheme of things he has to balance the future with the present. SH is a Land thing. It is nothing more than a tank that flies to them. Maybe the answer ther would be to transfer all SH aircrew and groundcrew to the AAC (joking - dons helmet!
). Don't forget nothing comes quickly in the Air Force (fnarr fnarr). Most of our budget for the forseeable future is already spent and even if we were able to free up considerable sums of cash you can't just pop down to the supermarket and pick up a load of SH/AT/UAV etc. How long has it taken to get Pred B? If any of you armchair Air Marshals can forsee the op situation in 10 years then please drop by Whitehall and let them know your wisdom because I'm sure that in 1997 nobody thought we'd be up to our necks in Irag and Afghanistan.My only question to him - if you bowed to the armchair Air Marshals and resigned, who would you want to replace you?
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Fantaman -
That is truly shocking. I wasn't going to comment here. I'm an ex-Pongo that spent a bit of time on RAF stations, and playing with your SH toys. The RAF is your trainset however, and far be it for me to comment on your issues.
However, in light of your photos, I can't help myself but to speak out.
Ok, those aircraft aren't the type we're short of, but the imagery is indicative of the mindset.
Questions for CAS:
1. Are you confident that there are no fundamental flaws in the RAF's policy regarding people, aircraft, and stations?
2. Do you have confidence in your government's resolve to address any points arising from 1?
3. Do you believe that the RAF's commitments are being met satisfactorily?
4. Do you believe that the RAF's foreseeable future commitments are likewise achieveable?
5. What troubles you?
That is truly shocking. I wasn't going to comment here. I'm an ex-Pongo that spent a bit of time on RAF stations, and playing with your SH toys. The RAF is your trainset however, and far be it for me to comment on your issues.
However, in light of your photos, I can't help myself but to speak out.
Ok, those aircraft aren't the type we're short of, but the imagery is indicative of the mindset.
Questions for CAS:
1. Are you confident that there are no fundamental flaws in the RAF's policy regarding people, aircraft, and stations?
2. Do you have confidence in your government's resolve to address any points arising from 1?
3. Do you believe that the RAF's commitments are being met satisfactorily?
4. Do you believe that the RAF's foreseeable future commitments are likewise achieveable?
5. What troubles you?
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Message to All
Any adversary out there is lapping up all this public comment from the disaffected. Every whinge is another feather in the cap of the Taliban/AQ/HIG fighter and without really knowing it, you're unwittingly lining up with those that we fight .. making our jobs just that little bit more difficult. If it's too hard ... leave ... or is the pay/boarding school allowance/sporting opportunities/social life/mates/travel/pension etc, too attractive to let go ....... Oh, there still is something that's good then! We know it's a dangerous business and there are things that need improving, but stop all this crabfat whinging .. for goodness sake!
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SRENNAPS
Your post has a ring of truth about it, but is flawed I'm afraid, and et me give you just a brief reason why............
'How many OC Sqns or OC Eng’s tell the Stn Cdr’s that there might be a problem with morale on a particular Sqn.
How many Stn Cdr’s tell the AOC that their station is overworked and undermanned & basically can’t cope anymore?
How many AOCs tell Glenn how it really is???'
All of the above (which you wrote) is 100% true and correct, so I have just one simple question for you.......
Where has Glenn T been for the last 25 years of his carreer?
Do you think he dosn't know any of the above? I rest my case.
Oh, and one last point. The reason why ploiticians come in for so much stick also is because they are the ones who control the purse strings. Not Jengos or Sengos or even Sqn and Stn Cdrs, its government who say how much we can have to spend.
So, when you have past CDS, and other very senior officers all bleating almost exclusively about ££££££ who else do you point the finger at? the boys on the line maybe? crew chiefs?
Wrathmonk
When I PVRd, I did just as you suggest. I wrote to the Air Sec and my AOC a formal letter pointing out the reasons why I was leaving the service after 30+ years. I explained the reasons in a calm and logical manner to them both. The responce from the Air Sec was 'thank you for your letter' and from my AOC just a simple 'thank you'
So, if you think that they are any more interested than Torpy is, then I'm afraid you are mistaken.
And lastly, let me reiterate that Glenn Torpy is a top bloke. He is a charming and likeable man. But that does NOT make him a strong and powerful leader I'm afraid. Far from it in fact.
Your post has a ring of truth about it, but is flawed I'm afraid, and et me give you just a brief reason why............
'How many OC Sqns or OC Eng’s tell the Stn Cdr’s that there might be a problem with morale on a particular Sqn.
How many Stn Cdr’s tell the AOC that their station is overworked and undermanned & basically can’t cope anymore?
How many AOCs tell Glenn how it really is???'
All of the above (which you wrote) is 100% true and correct, so I have just one simple question for you.......
Where has Glenn T been for the last 25 years of his carreer?
Do you think he dosn't know any of the above? I rest my case.
Oh, and one last point. The reason why ploiticians come in for so much stick also is because they are the ones who control the purse strings. Not Jengos or Sengos or even Sqn and Stn Cdrs, its government who say how much we can have to spend.
So, when you have past CDS, and other very senior officers all bleating almost exclusively about ££££££ who else do you point the finger at? the boys on the line maybe? crew chiefs?
Wrathmonk
When I PVRd, I did just as you suggest. I wrote to the Air Sec and my AOC a formal letter pointing out the reasons why I was leaving the service after 30+ years. I explained the reasons in a calm and logical manner to them both. The responce from the Air Sec was 'thank you for your letter' and from my AOC just a simple 'thank you'
So, if you think that they are any more interested than Torpy is, then I'm afraid you are mistaken.
And lastly, let me reiterate that Glenn Torpy is a top bloke. He is a charming and likeable man. But that does NOT make him a strong and powerful leader I'm afraid. Far from it in fact.
TSM
Now that saddens me that neither the Air Sec nor the AOC were interested. You would like to think that, at the very least, their outer office staff may, if nothing else, touch base on the phone (even perhaps out of curiosity). Perhaps this may change as the trickle of those leaving becomes a tidal wave.
I'm obviously in a huge minority as I believe the current CAS is a strong leader. May not be all puffed chest and volume (like Gen Jacko perhaps) but a strong leader in his own way - and I think as I've said previously he is very good at playing the politcos at their own game. Sometimes playing the waiting game and not shouting your problems from the roof top can work. I guess the next 6 months will be critical once the impact of the CSR works through the system. Of course, I may well be proven wrong and it will all end up in tears. Comes back to my question for him - if he was to leave who would he want to replace him. Perhaps more to the point who is there to replace him - better the devil you know and all that!
Now that saddens me that neither the Air Sec nor the AOC were interested. You would like to think that, at the very least, their outer office staff may, if nothing else, touch base on the phone (even perhaps out of curiosity). Perhaps this may change as the trickle of those leaving becomes a tidal wave.
I'm obviously in a huge minority as I believe the current CAS is a strong leader. May not be all puffed chest and volume (like Gen Jacko perhaps) but a strong leader in his own way - and I think as I've said previously he is very good at playing the politcos at their own game. Sometimes playing the waiting game and not shouting your problems from the roof top can work. I guess the next 6 months will be critical once the impact of the CSR works through the system. Of course, I may well be proven wrong and it will all end up in tears. Comes back to my question for him - if he was to leave who would he want to replace him. Perhaps more to the point who is there to replace him - better the devil you know and all that!
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Travel
1. Sir, I know it may seem insignificant, but if the minions have to travel by the cheapest means 'by car or train' then how can it be justified that the senior staffs still travel by helicopter?
Surely they can get more staffwork completed on a train or in the back of a car than they can whilst poling an augusta round the skies.
I dont remeber seeing an announcement to say ' Sweeping changes to travel across the board' in an IBN or on the MOD Website.
Its all down to communication and it isnt happening down the chain at the moment...............
Surely they can get more staffwork completed on a train or in the back of a car than they can whilst poling an augusta round the skies.
I dont remeber seeing an announcement to say ' Sweeping changes to travel across the board' in an IBN or on the MOD Website.
Its all down to communication and it isnt happening down the chain at the moment...............
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Wrathmonk
It is indeed a sad tale, but I don't think mine would have been isolated.
I left the RAF after 33 years aircrew and frankly, it counted for squat. I did get a valedictory letter which amounted to 3/4 of a side of A4. Not bad really I suppose. It's more than most people are getting these days I hear. The problem is that no one gives a stuff.
Glenn Torpy must be aware of these things. He is NOT an idiot or a fool. The problem is that like most people when they get on the promotion ladder, are not prepared to stand up and tell it as it is. It's outrageous that he will not go public and tell it as it is.
GasFitter,
Are you being serious or just being plain stupid? You should retract your comment about people like me (who are prepared to tell it as it is) as lining up with the likes of the Taliban & AQ etc. What utter nonesence you speak. How does it make your job any harder by me having a moan? I left, not because it was too hard, on the contrary. I left because the RAF had ceased to be run by the likes of Torpy and his band of AOCs. Stations and Sqns were being run by PTIs, Rocks, Blunties and Scribblies and faceless civilians who believed it was more important to have some niff-naff form filled in rarther than going to the sandpit yet again on ops.
I didn't have boarding school allowance thank you. My kids went to the local secondary school, and I wish I had had the time to use the sports facilities, travel and social life that you elude to.
TSM
It is indeed a sad tale, but I don't think mine would have been isolated.
I left the RAF after 33 years aircrew and frankly, it counted for squat. I did get a valedictory letter which amounted to 3/4 of a side of A4. Not bad really I suppose. It's more than most people are getting these days I hear. The problem is that no one gives a stuff.
Glenn Torpy must be aware of these things. He is NOT an idiot or a fool. The problem is that like most people when they get on the promotion ladder, are not prepared to stand up and tell it as it is. It's outrageous that he will not go public and tell it as it is.
GasFitter,
Are you being serious or just being plain stupid? You should retract your comment about people like me (who are prepared to tell it as it is) as lining up with the likes of the Taliban & AQ etc. What utter nonesence you speak. How does it make your job any harder by me having a moan? I left, not because it was too hard, on the contrary. I left because the RAF had ceased to be run by the likes of Torpy and his band of AOCs. Stations and Sqns were being run by PTIs, Rocks, Blunties and Scribblies and faceless civilians who believed it was more important to have some niff-naff form filled in rarther than going to the sandpit yet again on ops.
I didn't have boarding school allowance thank you. My kids went to the local secondary school, and I wish I had had the time to use the sports facilities, travel and social life that you elude to.
TSM
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CAS Question
I can put up with a lot but!
"Why is it that JPA is unaccountable to anyone? A chap doesn't get paid and no one (and we mean no one) will stand up and take the blame. Faceless apathetic call centres, decent folk in SHQ powerless to help, and rank of little use in trying to get it sorted. People have to spend hours on a phone or computer trying to get what is rightly theirs without recall to any 'liaison' staff . Put a face to JPA, stand up and be counted"
"Why is it that JPA is unaccountable to anyone? A chap doesn't get paid and no one (and we mean no one) will stand up and take the blame. Faceless apathetic call centres, decent folk in SHQ powerless to help, and rank of little use in trying to get it sorted. People have to spend hours on a phone or computer trying to get what is rightly theirs without recall to any 'liaison' staff . Put a face to JPA, stand up and be counted"
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4 Types,
You will NEVER get to see the face of the lunatic that dreamed up and got JPA installed into the RAF, because he is one of those many faceless people that have conned the services into buying a heap of rubbish!
No one has the guts to say it's crap, and all of those at the top, from 1* upwards (and God knows there's plenty of them!) won't have a bad word said about it because.........
a) they may have been involved in it, and.......
b) most of them want a job in industry when they call it a day from the service.
I have yet to hear a good thing said about JPA, and yet CAS is asking people what's the matter?? and why are the boys pi$$ed off?? I'll bet JPA would soon be sorted out if he or his mates had their pay screwed up!
God help us!
TSM
You will NEVER get to see the face of the lunatic that dreamed up and got JPA installed into the RAF, because he is one of those many faceless people that have conned the services into buying a heap of rubbish!
No one has the guts to say it's crap, and all of those at the top, from 1* upwards (and God knows there's plenty of them!) won't have a bad word said about it because.........
a) they may have been involved in it, and.......
b) most of them want a job in industry when they call it a day from the service.
I have yet to hear a good thing said about JPA, and yet CAS is asking people what's the matter?? and why are the boys pi$$ed off?? I'll bet JPA would soon be sorted out if he or his mates had their pay screwed up!
God help us!
TSM
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You should retract your comment about people like me (who are prepared to tell it as it is)
What utter nonesence you speak.
How does it make your job any harder by me having a moan?
I left, not because it was too hard, on the contrary.
Stations and Sqns were being run by PTIs, Rocks, Blunties and Scribblies and faceless civilians
have some niff-naff form filled in rarther than going to the sandpit yet again on ops.
I didn't have boarding school allowance thank you. My kids went to the local secondary school,
I wish I had had the time to use the sports facilities, travel and social life that you elude to.
Barrack Room Lawyers are all talk ... no trousers. The last thing we need on Ops is 'Bleaters' like you ... indirectly supporting the other side.
Thanks mate ... NOT!
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Gasfitter,
I take it you are Navy by the use of 'Crabfats'.
Firstly, unless I missed the Carrier Group on Kajaki Dam, what do you know about the Taliban?
Secondly, why do you feel the need to post on a thread concerning the CAS?
Knob off and find your own argument. This is ours.
WM
I take it you are Navy by the use of 'Crabfats'.
Firstly, unless I missed the Carrier Group on Kajaki Dam, what do you know about the Taliban?
Secondly, why do you feel the need to post on a thread concerning the CAS?
Knob off and find your own argument. This is ours.
WM