Fat loadies!
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A few days ago I had the pleasure of visiting RAF Shawbury
Another Pongo v Crab* thread
Still light hearted humour that is easy on the palette I suppose. *A resonable assumption as Shawbury is similar to each and every SH Sqn in appearance. The SAR boys eat even more pies!
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Trap one: "You aparently seem to equate slim with brains and fat with incompedence"
I am guessing by that liitle rant that you fall in the 'competent' side. I agree with most of the replies placed on this subject and I am by no means saying that all front seat crews are racing snakes, but surely we need to draw the line on such a highly visible trade. After all, they are Aircrew at the end of the day and if memory serves me correctly the medicals on entry where quite stringent so at what point do we allow people to literally let it go!
Fat does not equall experience. it equals eating too much and not excercising!
I am guessing by that liitle rant that you fall in the 'competent' side. I agree with most of the replies placed on this subject and I am by no means saying that all front seat crews are racing snakes, but surely we need to draw the line on such a highly visible trade. After all, they are Aircrew at the end of the day and if memory serves me correctly the medicals on entry where quite stringent so at what point do we allow people to literally let it go!
Fat does not equall experience. it equals eating too much and not excercising!
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Oh crikey, let us not head down the whole fitness rabbit hole again. Don't judge too quickly by appearance, fit to do the job (ie passes all tests, meets all requirements) is enough, if they appear a bit lardy that is a lifestyle issue and I don't remember BMI being on any stat to assess one's ability to do one's job.
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I feel this thread has lost its way slightly. I think it is a fair point raised by GW, perhaps not phrased in the best way though. I would also wholeheartedly agree that thin does not necessarily equal competent, and fat equal incompetent. The real argument as I see it is one of self discipline. There is a reason for required fitness levels across the military, and this includes obesity. I am afraid you do not need to be a trained clinician to spot obesity, and yes I will agree there are some very large people, who remain very fit. This however is more of an exception than the rule, and very few fall into this category. I am afraid to say that in general - if they look obese, they probably are, and I can say this as it is a field in which I am trained.
Good physical fitness is directly related to overall good health, physical and just as importantly - mental. Operational environments create a huge amount of stress on the body, due to a number of factors. Long working hours, night flying and irregular sleep patterns, as well as environmental conditions, all add put a great strain on the mind and body, affecting many systems, including the immune sysytem, nervous system, and digestive systems. The evidence is overwhelming and indisputible that good physical fitness is the best way to cope with this. This does not mean being a marathon runner, but simple, regular exercise, weight under control and a healthy diet - no excuses.
I will agree that experience is very important, and these experienced individuals will understand the need to be best prepared for the job in all ways - mentally as well as physically. Being overweight means you are far more prone to illness, stress related issues, injury and feeling the need to defend your size! Anyone can train and get fit. If they cant, then they should be downgraded and removed placed in rehab, as they present a liability and burden to their crew and operation.
I dont intend to preach and appreciate the experience argument, as well as the fact that this may be sometimes unachievable, but their must be targets and every attempt made to reach them.
Good physical fitness is directly related to overall good health, physical and just as importantly - mental. Operational environments create a huge amount of stress on the body, due to a number of factors. Long working hours, night flying and irregular sleep patterns, as well as environmental conditions, all add put a great strain on the mind and body, affecting many systems, including the immune sysytem, nervous system, and digestive systems. The evidence is overwhelming and indisputible that good physical fitness is the best way to cope with this. This does not mean being a marathon runner, but simple, regular exercise, weight under control and a healthy diet - no excuses.
I will agree that experience is very important, and these experienced individuals will understand the need to be best prepared for the job in all ways - mentally as well as physically. Being overweight means you are far more prone to illness, stress related issues, injury and feeling the need to defend your size! Anyone can train and get fit. If they cant, then they should be downgraded and removed placed in rehab, as they present a liability and burden to their crew and operation.
I dont intend to preach and appreciate the experience argument, as well as the fact that this may be sometimes unachievable, but their must be targets and every attempt made to reach them.
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Guided weapons. What is your issue. Can they pass a fitness test? Yes. Are they fit to do the job? Yes. Are the 2/3 guys you refer to pulling their weight (no pun intended)? Yes.
If you want to open a real can of worms then look around and see how many people in the whole of the RAF are overweight and well past their sell by date. Visit an Army barracks and you wont see the same. That is because they realise they are a fighting force and are fit for purpose. Sadly an unhealthy minority(?) of the RAF percieve their job to be Admin or Supply or whatever. With the pace and demands of current ops if your not fit to fight then you really are no use to the service. Too many times i have seen people deploy at short notice to replace some waster who has gone sick due to poor maintanence of his body!
To go back to my first line, the 2/3 guys to whom you refer have probably been on more op dets than they would care to remember. So don't judge books by covers ok?
Rant over. P.S Ant spelling mistakes are anger induced.
If you want to open a real can of worms then look around and see how many people in the whole of the RAF are overweight and well past their sell by date. Visit an Army barracks and you wont see the same. That is because they realise they are a fighting force and are fit for purpose. Sadly an unhealthy minority(?) of the RAF percieve their job to be Admin or Supply or whatever. With the pace and demands of current ops if your not fit to fight then you really are no use to the service. Too many times i have seen people deploy at short notice to replace some waster who has gone sick due to poor maintanence of his body!
To go back to my first line, the 2/3 guys to whom you refer have probably been on more op dets than they would care to remember. So don't judge books by covers ok?
Rant over. P.S Ant spelling mistakes are anger induced.
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Being overweight means you are far more prone to illness, stress related issues, injury
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That maybe true but conversely how many extra shifts have Overweights picked up because of sports injuries and sports detachments.
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And how many fitness spods have dropped down dead for maintaining their "Phiz" routine whilst deployed in theatre.
2 whilst I have been in theatre. Oh, and I have had to cover at least 3 dets for fitties who have knackered themselves doing things as begnign as sit-ups.
Oh, and I have failed a fitness test before. So what. I provide the goods in theatre whilst those who break themselves just to look good in the mirror are sat at home in physio.
2 whilst I have been in theatre. Oh, and I have had to cover at least 3 dets for fitties who have knackered themselves doing things as begnign as sit-ups.
Oh, and I have failed a fitness test before. So what. I provide the goods in theatre whilst those who break themselves just to look good in the mirror are sat at home in physio.
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VinRouge, typical salad dodger comment.
I dont think anyone is advocating that all should be gym queens or Daly Thompson phizz gods.
Just seems odd that you are defending being the Pilsbury Dough Boy or at best, a fat knacker.
And I think you're getting away from the origins of the topic;
Setting an example has nothing to do with spending 12 hours a day in the gym. It's a military thing but I don't suppose you'd understand that.
I dont think anyone is advocating that all should be gym queens or Daly Thompson phizz gods.
Just seems odd that you are defending being the Pilsbury Dough Boy or at best, a fat knacker.
And I think you're getting away from the origins of the topic;
Shawbury I assume is the first place the students get to see their future Peers, what sort of example is it setting to see clinically obese bosses?
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Let's just sort a couple of things out here.....
The only really fat aircrew are loadies OK?
Anyway, the army blokes are only 'slim' 'cos they're made to walk everywhere! The rest of us have real aircraft.
Attempts to outrun the incoming......
The only really fat aircrew are loadies OK?
Anyway, the army blokes are only 'slim' 'cos they're made to walk everywhere! The rest of us have real aircraft.
Attempts to outrun the incoming......
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Trap one: "You aparently seem to equate slim with brains and fat with incompedence"
Mis-guided.
No to your quoting of my post, I don't. You apparently seem to assume a lot by looking, be it at people or posts. That was why I made that post.
I again ask you to respond to the allegation that you are a Medical officer and PTI, all rolled into 1.
If you read the rest of my post you will see that I gave you an example of a very good friend who stretched his size 12 (the biggest) flying suit and yet had an extremely low BMI. The same for the England Rugby team front row.
Whilst you seem to just jump in certain directions and assume that these people are "clinically obese" (your words) you fail to check that that is the case.
People are not perfect, someone who is fat could certainly be "fit". I could pass the Bleep test but not the cycle test as I had high blood pressure. My late friend also passed the bleep test, but died from a heart attack.
The fitness fatness argument has been exhausted on other threads, and it wont go away. My problem with your post and you is your apparent ability to decide instantly who is what, is that you fall into a very dangerous category.
In a war zone. Do you look at a clear sky and think lovely or do you check for clear air turbulence. Do you maintain lookout for SAM's/AAA, or because you see nothing do you fly normally? Do you look at a field and think lovely field of flowers or do you check for mines and trip wires. Do you set up a tent in the middle of an airfield and fail to dig a slit trench, because you assume nothing can reach you in the middle of the airfield.
If you do not ask/check and you are on your own then you are the only one killed if you get it wrong. If you have troops under your command, or rear crew down the back, they will get killed with you.
You I would refuse to fly with!!!
No to your quoting of my post, I don't. You apparently seem to assume a lot by looking, be it at people or posts. That was why I made that post.
I again ask you to respond to the allegation that you are a Medical officer and PTI, all rolled into 1.
If you read the rest of my post you will see that I gave you an example of a very good friend who stretched his size 12 (the biggest) flying suit and yet had an extremely low BMI. The same for the England Rugby team front row.
Whilst you seem to just jump in certain directions and assume that these people are "clinically obese" (your words) you fail to check that that is the case.
People are not perfect, someone who is fat could certainly be "fit". I could pass the Bleep test but not the cycle test as I had high blood pressure. My late friend also passed the bleep test, but died from a heart attack.
The fitness fatness argument has been exhausted on other threads, and it wont go away. My problem with your post and you is your apparent ability to decide instantly who is what, is that you fall into a very dangerous category.
In a war zone. Do you look at a clear sky and think lovely or do you check for clear air turbulence. Do you maintain lookout for SAM's/AAA, or because you see nothing do you fly normally? Do you look at a field and think lovely field of flowers or do you check for mines and trip wires. Do you set up a tent in the middle of an airfield and fail to dig a slit trench, because you assume nothing can reach you in the middle of the airfield.
If you do not ask/check and you are on your own then you are the only one killed if you get it wrong. If you have troops under your command, or rear crew down the back, they will get killed with you.
You I would refuse to fly with!!!
Last edited by trap one; 11th Oct 2007 at 21:58.
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Wg,
As you are in the Army you will not understand the light blue way of life in the same way we are often bemused by the antics you mad pongo's get up to.
The fat knackers you and your colleagues so gleefully disparage will, almost certainly have passed their one and now two annual fitness tests so therefore they are "technically", fit despite not being pleasing on your rather critical eye.
The system sets a level of fitness we need to achieve which pretty much all of us attain with great ease and if some choose to see that as sufficient AND are still capable of carrying out their primary role then what is the problem
As you are in the Army you will not understand the light blue way of life in the same way we are often bemused by the antics you mad pongo's get up to.
The fat knackers you and your colleagues so gleefully disparage will, almost certainly have passed their one and now two annual fitness tests so therefore they are "technically", fit despite not being pleasing on your rather critical eye.
The system sets a level of fitness we need to achieve which pretty much all of us attain with great ease and if some choose to see that as sufficient AND are still capable of carrying out their primary role then what is the problem
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I'm guessing some of them must have defied the laws of physics if they truly have passed a fitness test. I'm sure that, like us you have the types who seem to 'go sick' just before a test and find ways out of actually doing it. Either that or they are paying the PTIs a few quid.
Its not my eyes that find them displeasing but as the opening poster suggests, it doesn't give the correct military impression to the young students.
Would you want an instructor looking like a total bag of ****e? Long hair, dirty flying suit, dirty boots?
And before some of you say 'if he can do his job, who cares' I think you may have missed the lesson whilst at Grantham Poly that advised 'lead by example'.
Its not my eyes that find them displeasing but as the opening poster suggests, it doesn't give the correct military impression to the young students.
Would you want an instructor looking like a total bag of ****e? Long hair, dirty flying suit, dirty boots?
And before some of you say 'if he can do his job, who cares' I think you may have missed the lesson whilst at Grantham Poly that advised 'lead by example'.
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I only wish I had some stats regarding the Rotary WSOps that are broken, requiring a Fixed Wing crossover or Medical Discharge. For I know that there are, or at least have been, many, and those that I know about have been relatively young, active and fit individuals. One Martial Arts maestro is now sadly disabled for life and no longer in the RAF.
The point to which I am getting, is that most instructors are not the youth of today, but have survived physical aspects of the job for, in some cases, decades. Reoccuring injuries (particulary back) are commonplace, yet they get on with it without bitching. The Physio staff at Shawbury are never short of Aircrew customers, most of whome are youngsters.
To subscribe to Pprune just to start a thread such as this says a lot about the mindset and therefore mental state of the originator. In short he/she is a Troll and should be treated with the contempt that this deserves. No doubt he/she has also logged on with a secondary 'handle', especially for the purpose of this thread, and has probably contributed to his own thread under his original 'name'. A timely reminder perhaps that names are taken at meetings for the purpose of Minutes:
All this at a time when mutual respect across the wider SH / AH Fleet was at its highest ever.............. It is pathetic
The point to which I am getting, is that most instructors are not the youth of today, but have survived physical aspects of the job for, in some cases, decades. Reoccuring injuries (particulary back) are commonplace, yet they get on with it without bitching. The Physio staff at Shawbury are never short of Aircrew customers, most of whome are youngsters.
To subscribe to Pprune just to start a thread such as this says a lot about the mindset and therefore mental state of the originator. In short he/she is a Troll and should be treated with the contempt that this deserves. No doubt he/she has also logged on with a secondary 'handle', especially for the purpose of this thread, and has probably contributed to his own thread under his original 'name'. A timely reminder perhaps that names are taken at meetings for the purpose of Minutes:
All this at a time when mutual respect across the wider SH / AH Fleet was at its highest ever.............. It is pathetic
I'm afraid the WG13 has this right - having been in for 25 plus years and kept myself the right side (just) of the fat boy bracket by doing Phys - some of the sights you see in a flying suits are frankly a disgrace. We are supposed to be a fighting force and expect the respect from others for that but it is a difficult claim to substantiate when guys turn up to work in spray-on flying kit.
Sadly our system allows guys to keep flying with 'fablon biff-chits' - fit to fly but unable to complete a fitness test for medical reasons.
It is worse at Shawbury because in a loadies operational job, there is a lot of humping and dumping that keeps them fitter (certainly fit for their job) but in LFA 9 they probably see 1 bergen a year.
I take GW's point that they set a poor example to new boys and girls as role models - unfortunately that poor example was being set back in the 80s and probably beyond.
As for the criticsm of GW's ability to assess obesity - you don't have to be a doctor to spot a fat b*st*rd
Sadly our system allows guys to keep flying with 'fablon biff-chits' - fit to fly but unable to complete a fitness test for medical reasons.
It is worse at Shawbury because in a loadies operational job, there is a lot of humping and dumping that keeps them fitter (certainly fit for their job) but in LFA 9 they probably see 1 bergen a year.
I take GW's point that they set a poor example to new boys and girls as role models - unfortunately that poor example was being set back in the 80s and probably beyond.
As for the criticsm of GW's ability to assess obesity - you don't have to be a doctor to spot a fat b*st*rd