Pilot Officer Windsor anyone?
Can't see why people seem so surprised by this, after all as future head of what's left of the armed forces it was inevitable he would spend time with each.
Old Ned claimed that training Engineers to be pilots did not work.
Tony Craig (an Engineer) came top of his course at Valley and went on to be the Lightning display pilot during his tour with 23 Sqn. Later when in charge of Lightning majors at Leconfield, he did the post servicing test flights. He went on to be a test pilot with BAe after he retired.
Did the flying thing rather better than most GD(P) in fact.
Tony Craig (an Engineer) came top of his course at Valley and went on to be the Lightning display pilot during his tour with 23 Sqn. Later when in charge of Lightning majors at Leconfield, he did the post servicing test flights. He went on to be a test pilot with BAe after he retired.
Did the flying thing rather better than most GD(P) in fact.
Last edited by izod tester; 10th Oct 2007 at 20:02.
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Engineer Pilots
Isn't it a fact that any decent Test Pilot will have a very thorough knowledge of engineering indeed ?!
Maybe not all that much 'dirty hands' but some of that will I think have been involved, by choice.
Perhaps I don't clearly understand the remark that engineers don't make good pilots, but on the face of it this sounds more like the worst snobbishness of 'Officer class' thinking Oiks are best kept in their place -
I'd much rather fly with an engineer who knows what's going on, than a chinless wonder who's daddy was in the right club !
Recently I had the chance to try both types of pilot, very literally, in light aircraft with a small organisation.
The ex-RAF engineer was a good, careful pilot who was also fun to be with - the rich playboy who often turned up drugged / hung over was an accident waiting to happen, and I avoided flying with him as long as poss, advising other people of my trade to do the same.
When I did get stuck with him, he passed out at the controls, leaving me circling wondering whether to declare an emergency & get a straight in approach ( can navigate & 'fly' a light aircraft but not in a correct procedure way) thus rogering his career...
He came to after a while and got us back pronto for a rough landing.
I know I should have 'shopped' him, but hoped he might have learned - meanwhile he was failing all his airline interviews anyway...
That's an extreme example, but I do shudder when I read that engineers don't make good pilots.
Maybe not all that much 'dirty hands' but some of that will I think have been involved, by choice.
Perhaps I don't clearly understand the remark that engineers don't make good pilots, but on the face of it this sounds more like the worst snobbishness of 'Officer class' thinking Oiks are best kept in their place -
I'd much rather fly with an engineer who knows what's going on, than a chinless wonder who's daddy was in the right club !
Recently I had the chance to try both types of pilot, very literally, in light aircraft with a small organisation.
The ex-RAF engineer was a good, careful pilot who was also fun to be with - the rich playboy who often turned up drugged / hung over was an accident waiting to happen, and I avoided flying with him as long as poss, advising other people of my trade to do the same.
When I did get stuck with him, he passed out at the controls, leaving me circling wondering whether to declare an emergency & get a straight in approach ( can navigate & 'fly' a light aircraft but not in a correct procedure way) thus rogering his career...
He came to after a while and got us back pronto for a rough landing.
I know I should have 'shopped' him, but hoped he might have learned - meanwhile he was failing all his airline interviews anyway...
That's an extreme example, but I do shudder when I read that engineers don't make good pilots.
Last edited by Double Zero; 10th Oct 2007 at 20:04.
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Prince William.
Starting with K.G.V all male royals have been photographed in military uniforms sporting the pilot brevets of the three services. To my knowledge only the Princes Philip, Andrew, and Charles are entitled to do so, they having completed the course. Whatever the outcome of the next one, I predict an above average or an exceptional assessment, before the first engine start.
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Surely with the R in RN and in RAF, age waivers, eyesight and the like mean bugger all, it's his family firm let him do what he likes. Much like all of us he will be judged by his actions and by history, except that he has a little more at stake. Say what you like you wouldn't change places!
Comments concerning Miss Middleton not required ref changing places.
Comments concerning Miss Middleton not required ref changing places.
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Read a book about an American chap recently who was equally qualified as an Engineer and a Pilot, and in fact practiced both simultaneously for most of his career. He claimed that if questioned as to his profession he would answer Engineer, he claimed also that it was easier to turn an Engineer into a Pilot than Pilot into an Engineer.
The Book: First Man. About:Mr Neil Armstrong.
We've all got a job to do....
The Book: First Man. About:Mr Neil Armstrong.
We've all got a job to do....
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Chimp Boy,
so as it's his ' family firm ' I'll ignore the various things I've read ( here and other places ) about Andrew being incredibly arrogant & expecting 'normal' helo' aircrew to carry his baggage ? I'm happy to remember that he was told where it was & go get it in one report, which may have been career-limiting but worth it...
Call me a cynic, but I don't see a carrier skipper ( always a career minded position in itself ) allowing him to really go into harms' way decoying exocets - would be a rather awkward phone call if the decoy worked & he took the missile...
As for Edward, I can only feel sorry for whatever poor sod was told to look after him joining the Marines !
Hadn't anyone told him flower-arranging is not considered a martial art ?
so as it's his ' family firm ' I'll ignore the various things I've read ( here and other places ) about Andrew being incredibly arrogant & expecting 'normal' helo' aircrew to carry his baggage ? I'm happy to remember that he was told where it was & go get it in one report, which may have been career-limiting but worth it...
Call me a cynic, but I don't see a carrier skipper ( always a career minded position in itself ) allowing him to really go into harms' way decoying exocets - would be a rather awkward phone call if the decoy worked & he took the missile...
As for Edward, I can only feel sorry for whatever poor sod was told to look after him joining the Marines !
Hadn't anyone told him flower-arranging is not considered a martial art ?
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I'd rather 'waste' some flying trg hours on our future King than on some of the rubbish visits/senior officer courses/ACSC/RCDS stuff that goes on. I know that this gets hidden under the guise of MCT/SCT or trg hours but there are still a lot of jollies undertaken for a lot of people.
Look at the number of Stn Cdrs that have done some sort of course on all types on their station and tell me that some (not all granted) of that isn't wasted or fat. What about OC Ops on some stns? What about AOCs, CINCs etc doing Senior Officer Courses on the Hs125 and BAe 146 and then not ever using their 'qualifications'?
I'm not saying we can afford any waste and would rather do away with it all and utilise our ac to give experience to our ever increasing number of low hours CR pilots.
Whether we like it or not, the Royal family still have a lot of influence. Questions asked, points made get listened to at the highest levels. I'd rather have a tuned-in, lightly qualified Prince William as our future King. He won't have power, but he'll be able to make people squirm with the right questioning.
Or would you rather have the CAS going solo on the Typhoon? Again...
Look at the number of Stn Cdrs that have done some sort of course on all types on their station and tell me that some (not all granted) of that isn't wasted or fat. What about OC Ops on some stns? What about AOCs, CINCs etc doing Senior Officer Courses on the Hs125 and BAe 146 and then not ever using their 'qualifications'?
I'm not saying we can afford any waste and would rather do away with it all and utilise our ac to give experience to our ever increasing number of low hours CR pilots.
Whether we like it or not, the Royal family still have a lot of influence. Questions asked, points made get listened to at the highest levels. I'd rather have a tuned-in, lightly qualified Prince William as our future King. He won't have power, but he'll be able to make people squirm with the right questioning.
Or would you rather have the CAS going solo on the Typhoon? Again...
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Rudekid,
I'm tempted to think that hands-on experience for high-ups in the actual force may not be a complete waste of time, at least they get to understand their 'inferiors' jobs - so if they have any gumption ( here's the rub ) they can represent them in a better way...
As for the Royals, I'd suggest get him / them in a 2-seat whatever, and take them during a serious exercise like Red Flag or others - that might give them a clue & lead to fighting the right corner - that's if Wills or whoever else doesn't write it off straight after as a joyride time then go back to a fun lifestyle which does not involve nasty plebby forces stuff...
How would he feel about being on ( 2 seat ) QRA for a while ?
I'm tempted to think that hands-on experience for high-ups in the actual force may not be a complete waste of time, at least they get to understand their 'inferiors' jobs - so if they have any gumption ( here's the rub ) they can represent them in a better way...
As for the Royals, I'd suggest get him / them in a 2-seat whatever, and take them during a serious exercise like Red Flag or others - that might give them a clue & lead to fighting the right corner - that's if Wills or whoever else doesn't write it off straight after as a joyride time then go back to a fun lifestyle which does not involve nasty plebby forces stuff...
How would he feel about being on ( 2 seat ) QRA for a while ?
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Corrona
.
These would be the same engineers, then, who modified a 28v DC system to take 65 v ground power, omitting, (whoops), to modify all its critical components. They then (inadvisedly) used tank heaters continuously for 8 hours to burn off LOX which would not vent normally from the tank because it had already been damaged by mishandling (by other engineers) 18 months earlier - frying the unmodified components in the process, along with the insulation on the tank's internal wiring due to overheating. When the system was 'fired up' in flight, and given the propensity for LOX to go bang rather spectacularly in the presence of live, uninsulated electrical conductors, the predictable happened.
The ac? Apollo 13.
No offence to Mr Armstrong (whose own achievements were of course awesome) but some of the other engineering practices of that particular organisation - then and since - have proved, shall we say, sub-optimal.
Gadget
Read a book about an American chap recently who was equally qualified as an Engineer and a Pilot...he claimed also that it was easier to turn an Engineer into a Pilot than Pilot into an Engineer.
The Book: First Man. about: Mr Neil Armstrong.
The Book: First Man. about: Mr Neil Armstrong.
These would be the same engineers, then, who modified a 28v DC system to take 65 v ground power, omitting, (whoops), to modify all its critical components. They then (inadvisedly) used tank heaters continuously for 8 hours to burn off LOX which would not vent normally from the tank because it had already been damaged by mishandling (by other engineers) 18 months earlier - frying the unmodified components in the process, along with the insulation on the tank's internal wiring due to overheating. When the system was 'fired up' in flight, and given the propensity for LOX to go bang rather spectacularly in the presence of live, uninsulated electrical conductors, the predictable happened.
The ac? Apollo 13.
No offence to Mr Armstrong (whose own achievements were of course awesome) but some of the other engineering practices of that particular organisation - then and since - have proved, shall we say, sub-optimal.
Gadget
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Double Zero
Thread drift, I know
The military life is not for everyone.
An aside, would you be capable of successfully getting your green lid?
I for one thought that Edward made a brave call when he threw his hand in - he could possibly have scraped through by hiding behind his family name..... at the very least he could have made life very ackward for the training staff who may have had to decide to chop him.
He made his very public decision, despite the knowledge that it would be widely reported. Sometimes it takes a bigger man to admit that they are just not up to the job.
Thread drift, I know
As for Edward, I can only feel sorry for whatever poor sod was told to look after him joining the Marines !
Hadn't anyone told him flower-arranging is not considered a martial art ?
Hadn't anyone told him flower-arranging is not considered a martial art ?
An aside, would you be capable of successfully getting your green lid?
I for one thought that Edward made a brave call when he threw his hand in - he could possibly have scraped through by hiding behind his family name..... at the very least he could have made life very ackward for the training staff who may have had to decide to chop him.
He made his very public decision, despite the knowledge that it would be widely reported. Sometimes it takes a bigger man to admit that they are just not up to the job.
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Neil Armstrong was an Engineer in the sense that he had engineering degree and post-graduate qualifications. In some countries (Germany, Japan?) chartered engineers use the title Engineer like we use Doctor to denote a highly regarded professional qualification.
In the UK "engineer" is used in all walks of life for jobs that are actually being performed by technicians. In no way would using "technician" instead of "engineer" denigrate such demanding and skilful jobs - likewise the paramedics do not call themselves doctors. Our nomenclature does serve to reduce the kudos of engineering as a profession compared to say law, medicine, finance and perhaps makes it less attractive to the best brains - along with the pitiful financial rewards. In other countries engineering is regarded with equal if not superior social status - which may account for the success of their engineering and manufacturing industries.
That said, I can't imagine telling an Air Engineer that he cannot use the title Engineer and has to use something silly like WSOp - no one would be that silly, would they?
In the UK "engineer" is used in all walks of life for jobs that are actually being performed by technicians. In no way would using "technician" instead of "engineer" denigrate such demanding and skilful jobs - likewise the paramedics do not call themselves doctors. Our nomenclature does serve to reduce the kudos of engineering as a profession compared to say law, medicine, finance and perhaps makes it less attractive to the best brains - along with the pitiful financial rewards. In other countries engineering is regarded with equal if not superior social status - which may account for the success of their engineering and manufacturing industries.
That said, I can't imagine telling an Air Engineer that he cannot use the title Engineer and has to use something silly like WSOp - no one would be that silly, would they?
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Captain G, you forget to mention that Lovell (the mission commander) was well aware of the potential issues with regard to the No2 LOx tank, but rather than delay the mission the decision was made to press on. That is a systemic failure as it was not his decision alone, which NASA seems to have struggled to correct (witness Challenger).
To suggest that all engineers are incompetent in the manner you do is frankly childish. I would suggest equally that every ac loss due to pilot aircrew error indicates that no aircrew should be allowed to fly.
The critical point you make without seeming to realise it is of course that this was a chain of events, not one single person or group of people was responsible, although anyone saying stop this needs reconsidering would have ensured that the drama would not have occurred.
To suggest that all engineers are incompetent in the manner you do is frankly childish. I would suggest equally that every ac loss due to pilot aircrew error indicates that no aircrew should be allowed to fly.
The critical point you make without seeming to realise it is of course that this was a chain of events, not one single person or group of people was responsible, although anyone saying stop this needs reconsidering would have ensured that the drama would not have occurred.
Daring to take the thread back to its roots, may I suggest that Wills spends his RAF time at a SAR Flight - a timewarp back to yesteryear, to the Golden Age of Aviation (well, the 1960s), an era before sand (beaches excepted), bullets and JPA, where all one had to worry about was a Red under the bed...
Silly me, he'll be too busy doing ISS, and if his stint in the RAF drags on a bit longer than planned, he might even have to do two fitness tests...
Silly me, he'll be too busy doing ISS, and if his stint in the RAF drags on a bit longer than planned, he might even have to do two fitness tests...
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Can not agree less with Old Ned re the value of flying training and indeed a flying tour for some engineers that occurred in the 60's. Although Tony Craig stood out, indeed he totally out shone me as a recent CFS graduate when I flew with student Craig on a so called instructional sortie at Church Fenton, there were other engineers whom I met that had a much better understanding of the aircrew side of things as a result of their flying experience.
Could it not be to the Services advantage for Prince William to have been given a chance to experience all three services, after all we need all the friends in high places we can get.
Could it not be to the Services advantage for Prince William to have been given a chance to experience all three services, after all we need all the friends in high places we can get.
Last edited by Art Field; 11th Oct 2007 at 09:54. Reason: Grammer
