Shackleton/Nimrod Stage 2 & ACT
Shackleton/Nimrod Stage 2 & ACT
Does anyone know of anywhere on the internet where there is a description of Stage 2 & ACT. I have tried Google but without success. I could I write one but it would be lengthy and I only require it as an example to illustrate a point about task simulation.
I suppose that Stage 2 could also be used to illustrate the spirit of Heath-Robinson as well!
YS
PS
I know what Stage 3 was, but does anyone know of Stage 1?
I suppose that Stage 2 could also be used to illustrate the spirit of Heath-Robinson as well!
YS
PS
I know what Stage 3 was, but does anyone know of Stage 1?
Last edited by Yellow Sun; 15th Aug 2007 at 13:54.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: NW England
Age: 62
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Conflict of abbreviations?
ACT means Acoustics Crew Trainer to me - Last version was the ACT2. But I suspect that's not what you mean, is it? Mainly 'cause I can't work out the relevance of Stage 1, 2 or 3!
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: In the workshop, Prune-whispering.
Age: 71
Posts: 744
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
I remember being given a tour of the stage 2 when I was at St. Mawgan by Terry Hatherley. I'm by no means certain, but Stage 1 may have been passive only i.e. no Mk1C active input/output.
Stage 2
This trainer required comms between the crew flying out in the firth and the trainer team in that building on the right hand side of the road going down to the airfield (grew good tomatoes in the west facing windows). The crew reported the position of the sonobuoys they dropped in a grid that was replicated on the "table" in the ground station. The "Target" was an electromechanical pointer that crawled across the table on the X/Y coordinates of the grid. The "sonobuoys" were similar electromechanical "pots" that were locked in place above the table IAW the reported grid posns from the a/c. They were tied (literally) to the target as it moved around by wires that reeled out from the bottom of the "pots". Still with me?
As the target moved, the wires tying it to the pots replicated the "range" and the "bearing" which were transmitted to the Mk1C receivers in the a/c and triggered both the "echo" from the acoustic "ping" from the active and the "hydrophone effect" detected on the passive buoys. This required a whole bunch of VHF transmitters working continuously for all the buoys that were "dropped". It also needed a well worked up tream in the trainer for it to work well. As already mentioned it was designed by heath robinson and supplied us with the best simulation that was available before computers were invented.
It's amazing what comes into ones mind when is bored on a wet afternoon when one can't get on with jobs in the garden.
There will NOT be any questions at the end.
The Ancient Mariner
PS As sure as S£$%T there will be someone along dreckly telling me where I got it wrong.
As the target moved, the wires tying it to the pots replicated the "range" and the "bearing" which were transmitted to the Mk1C receivers in the a/c and triggered both the "echo" from the acoustic "ping" from the active and the "hydrophone effect" detected on the passive buoys. This required a whole bunch of VHF transmitters working continuously for all the buoys that were "dropped". It also needed a well worked up tream in the trainer for it to work well. As already mentioned it was designed by heath robinson and supplied us with the best simulation that was available before computers were invented.
It's amazing what comes into ones mind when is bored on a wet afternoon when one can't get on with jobs in the garden.
There will NOT be any questions at the end.
The Ancient Mariner
PS As sure as S£$%T there will be someone along dreckly telling me where I got it wrong.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: NW England
Age: 62
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So he does mean ACT on the MR2
May have some info somewhere - I certainly know some-one with one (leaving RAF present)
Doptrack
PS Stage 2 sounds like something else. I wish I'd seen it
Doptrack
PS Stage 2 sounds like something else. I wish I'd seen it
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: N London
Posts: 120
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
At St Mawgan there was some input from the Sonobuoy bay. We had antennas on the roof of the bay which we attached 15053 or 15054 buoys too, as and when we got a phone call about stage 2 or was that something else !!! 
Ahhhggghhh Too long ago to remember.
There was also some semi permenant buoys in the Bristol channel. They were serviced via the MCU at Pembroke Docks.
Ahhhggghhh Too long ago to remember.There was also some semi permenant buoys in the Bristol channel. They were serviced via the MCU at Pembroke Docks.
But has anyone got any photos of the Stage 2 in all it's Heath Robinson glory?
dervish
Your HAAT is a version/development of ACT, or ACT2 that is the current version.
PTR175
I think that was related to Stage 2, but not part of it. I seem to recall that we had to to a signal cal. before starting. Any wet men fill in on this one?
The buoy(s) you refer to could have been the radar reflector buoy in D201 and there were other range related buoys around the coast.
Just so the "youngsters"
are understand, Stage 2 ended when the MK1 Nimrod went out of service. ACT was fitted to the MK2 and obviated the need for it.
YS
dervish
Did the RAF ever get a version of the RN's HAAT? Helicopter Airborne Acoustic Trainer.
PTR175
We had antennas on the roof of the bay which we attached 15053 or 15054 buoys too, as and when we got a phone call about stage 2 or was that something else
The buoy(s) you refer to could have been the radar reflector buoy in D201 and there were other range related buoys around the coast.
Just so the "youngsters"
are understand, Stage 2 ended when the MK1 Nimrod went out of service. ACT was fitted to the MK2 and obviated the need for it.YS
I think most Maritime bases had Stage 2 trainers - certainly St Mawgan and Changi and I believe Ballykelly - and Rossian brings it all back. Yes it was Heath Robinson, but it worked well and we seemed to do an awful lot of it.
Was Stage 1 the static crew simulator at MOTU alongside the Seal Bar at St Mawgan? Again it's a long time ago, but I remember doing something similar (at length) during the ground phase and we could play at chase the contact, before going on to Stage 2 during the applied flying part of the course.
It was finally withdrawn when the 1C sonar went (no point afterwards) - was that the same time as the Nimrod upgrade?
Was Stage 1 the static crew simulator at MOTU alongside the Seal Bar at St Mawgan? Again it's a long time ago, but I remember doing something similar (at length) during the ground phase and we could play at chase the contact, before going on to Stage 2 during the applied flying part of the course.
It was finally withdrawn when the 1C sonar went (no point afterwards) - was that the same time as the Nimrod upgrade?
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Middle England
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Stage 1 - No idea, though I did ask the question at MOTU
Stage 2 - Great description by Rossian at #4 - though you missed the stats board they kept at ISK giving the total of buoys 'dropped' and the relevant saving to HM the Qs purse.
Stage 3 - Was passive data tramsmitted to the Nimrod MR1 crews from actual recordings of contacts - though from recollection there was a debate as to whether broadcasting these tapes for the Wet team to analyse could be viewed as a security problem. In the end the answer was no becasue the actual analysis was condcuted inside the aircraft while operating in D807. But the ACT on the MR2 meant goodbye to all that, and to the tomatoes that the ISK Satge 2 team used to grow.
Stage 2 - Great description by Rossian at #4 - though you missed the stats board they kept at ISK giving the total of buoys 'dropped' and the relevant saving to HM the Qs purse.
Stage 3 - Was passive data tramsmitted to the Nimrod MR1 crews from actual recordings of contacts - though from recollection there was a debate as to whether broadcasting these tapes for the Wet team to analyse could be viewed as a security problem. In the end the answer was no becasue the actual analysis was condcuted inside the aircraft while operating in D807. But the ACT on the MR2 meant goodbye to all that, and to the tomatoes that the ISK Satge 2 team used to grow.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Lincoln Massif
Age: 65
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As an ex dry-man (I was never confused) I can't contribute much to this debate - but I do recall the large sheets of tracing paper awating our return to Ops post-flight for the Stage 2 debrief, and also that Stage 2 made us honk our rings...
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: N London
Posts: 120
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Shackman Quoted
"It was finally withdrawn when the 1C sonar went (no point afterwards) - was that the same time as the Nimrod upgrade?"
Sure was Mk 1C Sonics went the same way as AQA5 i.e. into the bin when the whole fleet was converted to MR 2s. It was replaced by the Mighty (Marconi/Computing Devices of Canada) AQS 901 with all its Magnetic core memory and reel to reel tape loader.
The ASNI went as well, thank god !!
"It was finally withdrawn when the 1C sonar went (no point afterwards) - was that the same time as the Nimrod upgrade?"
Sure was Mk 1C Sonics went the same way as AQA5 i.e. into the bin when the whole fleet was converted to MR 2s. It was replaced by the Mighty (Marconi/Computing Devices of Canada) AQS 901 with all its Magnetic core memory and reel to reel tape loader.
The ASNI went as well, thank god !!
WRT Stage 2, I find it interesting that a device that we all spent many "happy" 
hours using now appears to be consigned to the collective folk memory. As I said in the opening thread of this post, there appears to be nothing on the internet about Stage 2. I accept that it was a training device but for all its "wheels, wires and pulleys" it was an effective one. If it had not existed we would have had to have invented something like it.
So, we had Stage 2 but what did the other MPA; USN (R)CAF, Dutch, French; operators use? Does anyone know?
YS
hours using now appears to be consigned to the collective folk memory. As I said in the opening thread of this post, there appears to be nothing on the internet about Stage 2. I accept that it was a training device but for all its "wheels, wires and pulleys" it was an effective one. If it had not existed we would have had to have invented something like it.So, we had Stage 2 but what did the other MPA; USN (R)CAF, Dutch, French; operators use? Does anyone know?
YS
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: In the workshop, Prune-whispering.
Age: 71
Posts: 744
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
The aerial & transmitter at NLF St. Mawgam was for 'Linepost' transmissions on CH9. It sent out calibration signals for the AQA5(M). It was represented as differing dB level signals used to work out Median Detection Ranges (MDR's) on acoustics.
PingDit
PingDit
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 181
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Stage 3 - Was passive data tramsmitted to the Nimrod MR1 crews from actual recordings of contacts... the actual analysis was condcuted inside the aircraft while operating in D807.
And was not ACT the AIRBORNE (rather than Acoustic) Crew Trainer, as the Navs used to get involved too, though it was never a particularly inspiring training device.
