Non-Commissioned Pilots
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SNCO Pilots?
Why does the rank matter, surely it is the ability to do the job which counts. In the past I have flown with a number of NCO pilots on multi engined aircraft, they were professionals in the truest sense of the word. The Army have had non-commissioned pilots flying twins in recent years, successfully. Until WWII the RAF had Corporal pilots and those 'down the back end' were often aircraftsmen. The top scoring Battle of Britain fighter pilot (ours) was a SNCO (who was commissioned when his score started creeping up). To finish - the first DFM of WWII was won by an LAC wireless operator.
MY GOD I DO FEEL OLD!
MY GOD I DO FEEL OLD!
Last edited by Papa Whisky Alpha; 13th Aug 2007 at 23:01. Reason: SPELLING
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As is the nature of this world... Those who got there, often without reason, stay there and those that started "lower" find it to be a handicap later on. As it is some of those didn't "stay put"... But some of those "less than average" pilots seem to still be hanging around as Flt. Lts and maybe Sqn Ldrs after 20+ years...
... and your offensive attitude implies you are still in, or served a long time and reached the all hallowed rank of [Fill in your rank below Wing Commander here] thus proving my point.
Hint: Good officers don't get offensive right off the bat...
... and your offensive attitude implies you are still in, or served a long time and reached the all hallowed rank of [Fill in your rank below Wing Commander here] thus proving my point.
Hint: Good officers don't get offensive right off the bat...
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'your' pilots abilities
BTW, the "all mouth, no trousers" was the offensive and typically juvenile comment if you need your inability to communicate effectively with others pointed out to you. It goes most of the way to proving my point actually, so I thank you for it.
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
Jacketp,
Welcome to the world of crushing disappointment...
I am hoping that this will provoke some serious comments rather than a general moan.
Welcome to the world of crushing disappointment...
Cunning Artificer
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Dealing With Advances in Technology
Just got my 'Flight International' yesterday morning. There's more than a hundred UAV types in production or design now: they don't carry crew but they need an 'operator.' Some of these machines are sophisticated jet powered stealth aircraft carrying smart weapons. Will we need Flying Officers and Flight Lieutenants to fly them - with a Squadron Leader to organize them of course? Or would a team of NCOs or even - dare I say it - airmen/airwomen coordinated and organized by a Flight Lieutenant be sufficient?
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When I was on the directing staff at IOT Cranwell we were busily graduating commissioned pilots - they had, of course, about the same officer qualities as the lads that were undergoing their 6 weeks initial training at nearby Swinderby.
They were graduated on the understanding that the flying training schools would "iron out" the (very) rough edges. The flying training schools were of the opinion that if Cranditz said that they were good enough to be commissioned officers then who were they to say different.
And the system ground ever onwards............
And now some of these people are in senior wg cdr/gp capt/star appointments making decisions which affect the whole of the RAF.
And there are people posting on here who wonder why the RAF appears to be going to hell in a handbasket!! Strewth!
They were graduated on the understanding that the flying training schools would "iron out" the (very) rough edges. The flying training schools were of the opinion that if Cranditz said that they were good enough to be commissioned officers then who were they to say different.
And the system ground ever onwards............
And now some of these people are in senior wg cdr/gp capt/star appointments making decisions which affect the whole of the RAF.
And there are people posting on here who wonder why the RAF appears to be going to hell in a handbasket!! Strewth!
It would appear that you are drawing the rank comparisons between a Battalion (850 strong unit) and an RAF squadron; rather than a Sqn (sub-unit) and an RAF Sqn. This appears to quadruple the importance of an RAF sqn size!
No I didn't. I pointed out that the org of a typical RAF Sqn contains a number of flights each commanded by a Sqn Ldr by virtue of the number of JO and SNCO ranks contained within them. A military unit that contains a number of sub-units each commanded by a Sqn Ldr/Major/Lt Cdr would, I suggest, be not unreasonably commanded by a Wg Cdr/Lt Col/Cdr.
By my logic reduce the junior officers to NCOs, the flights to be commanded by Flt Lts and the squadrons to be commanded by 'Leaders of Squadrons'.
I'm sure we could do that. However, it would give little, if any, cost savings, cause vast disruption to a long established and working system, and we will not do it simply to satisfy the clamourings of those who are unable to make the distinction between the rank of Sqn Ldr, and the appointment of Squadron Commander.
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I understood that battalion strength was being reduced to under 500 fighting troops with the introduction of the new army structure. Does this mean that in the future a Company will be commanded by a "Minor"? 
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Deliverence quoted:
"As for UAVs, CAA regs require a qualified pilot to be in command when they fly outside of danger areas, so I don't see much of cost saving there".
Out of interest what pilot qualifications are required by the CAA ? For example could a LAC/Pvt/Leading Hand with a PPL qualify or would a CPL be required.
"As for UAVs, CAA regs require a qualified pilot to be in command when they fly outside of danger areas, so I don't see much of cost saving there".
Out of interest what pilot qualifications are required by the CAA ? For example could a LAC/Pvt/Leading Hand with a PPL qualify or would a CPL be required.
Deliverence quoted:
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Debate? Bah. I've had my say, I'm right, nothing more to say.
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Now where does the guy label ALL pilots as arrogant? He implies that some are, and in my experience they make themselves abundantly apparent, usually with a high pitch whine - rather like tinnitis but much more persistent and annoying - which remains long after any sortie. In the FAA at sea it is usually cured with a bout of night flying, after which they're quieter, paler and with a much less chisseled jawline.
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Unfortunately in the RAF there is no cure. Left unchecked they usually reach Air rank, from where they proceed to perpetuate the species.
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The current system works, if you read the link I posted on the first page you will find no benefit to changing over to the army system. Case closed.
Debate? Bah. I've had my say, I'm right, nothing more to say.
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Are you sure it is not your own inadequacies and insecurities that you are highlighting when you label all pilots as arrogant?
Now where does the guy label ALL pilots as arrogant? He implies that some are, and in my experience they make themselves abundantly apparent, usually with a high pitch whine - rather like tinnitis but much more persistent and annoying - which remains long after any sortie. In the FAA at sea it is usually cured with a bout of night flying, after which they're quieter, paler and with a much less chisseled jawline.
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Unfortunately in the RAF there is no cure. Left unchecked they usually reach Air rank, from where they proceed to perpetuate the species.
Red On, Green On
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Out of interest what pilot qualifications are required by the CAA ? For example could a LAC/Pvt/Leading Hand with a PPL qualify or would a CPL be required.
Out of interest what pilot qualifications are required by the CAA ? For example could a LAC/Pvt/Leading Hand with a PPL qualify or would a CPL be required.
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Are you sure it is not your own inadequacies and insecurities that you are highlighting when you label all pilots as arrogant?
And are you not being arrogant when you suggest that you could replace some of your 'less than average' pilots with rear-crew and not notice the difference.
Methinks one of two things happened when you read and started typing:-
1. Your arrogance and misguided feelings of superiority came glaringly to the forefront, or
2. Your "stupid gene" kicked in per your nick.
You decide whether it was number one or "here piggy, piggy, piggy?...
The point being made is that the RAF is top-heavy in it's lower rank structure amongst aircrew with Flt Lt being the "default" rank which, in turn results in higher costs. Before you start saying that people won't work for FO wages I'd maintain they would if they are also paid on a sliding scale of flying pay per their experience. Then we can have Flt Lt's in charge of a flight and Sqn Ldr's in charge of squadrons rather than a gaggle of Flt Lt's standing around with no commensurate responsibility yet bathing in the glow of the undeserved rank.
Better yet, and the thing that seems to rankle you, is that the front crew could equally well be SNCO's. The argument that one can't trust SNCO's with nuclear weapons is, frankly, downright insulting. I'd measure the loyalty and reliability of SNCO's against officers any day and wager there is no discernible difference. If front crew were, largely SNCO, we could, again see proper manning in the rank structure within units and again save money. (Funny how a Sergeant Pilot will work for Sergeant's pay but a Flt Lt of three years won't work for a FO's wages yet the nuclear weapons issue implies a greater level of commitment on the part of Officers isn't it?).
The only reason why the RAF don't want SNCO pilots is because it "degrades" the officer pilot's position on the basis that, really, "anyone" can do it.
After commissioning into the RAF from NCO Army pilot, I commanded a Flight as a flight lieutenant and then commanded a Squadron (78 Sqn) as a squadron leader.
I was commissioned as a flying officer (not officer cadet) into the RAF 6 months before being discharged as a sergeant from the Army! (My discharge sheet stated "Primary trade; avionics technician. Secondary employment; pilot")
I received both Army and RAF pay for those six months but was told to save the lower salary (the RAF one!) until the Army discharged me!
I found that commissioning did not improve my distinctly average flying ability in any way!
I was commissioned as a flying officer (not officer cadet) into the RAF 6 months before being discharged as a sergeant from the Army! (My discharge sheet stated "Primary trade; avionics technician. Secondary employment; pilot")
I received both Army and RAF pay for those six months but was told to save the lower salary (the RAF one!) until the Army discharged me!
I found that commissioning did not improve my distinctly average flying ability in any way!
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Its surprising how many SNCOs say that they could easily do an officer's job yet when offered a commission they turn it down. There is a little word called responsibility that several SNCOs do not want to accept yet they want the "fun" part of the job. Sounds a bit selfish to me......
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I haven't read every post, so apologies if this had been said before.
I'm also not sure if, with the increasingly different cultures of the two countries - (or "kulchur", as we say in the Antipodes) - the same applies to the RAF as did/does to the RAAF. However, harking back to my RAAF days, I think a first tour as a Sgt pilot after getting their wings would be a major learning experience, as well as giving young officers-to-be an invaluable insight into how "the System" works by having them mix closely with the people who have always really made the Air Force work.
I imagine it would also go a long way towards sorting the sheep from the goats.
I'm also not sure if, with the increasingly different cultures of the two countries - (or "kulchur", as we say in the Antipodes) - the same applies to the RAF as did/does to the RAAF. However, harking back to my RAAF days, I think a first tour as a Sgt pilot after getting their wings would be a major learning experience, as well as giving young officers-to-be an invaluable insight into how "the System" works by having them mix closely with the people who have always really made the Air Force work.
I imagine it would also go a long way towards sorting the sheep from the goats.
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As for UAVs, CAA regs require a qualified pilot to be in command when they fly outside of danger areas, so I don't see much of cost saving there.
The Army have just taken delivery of the Hermes 450 for operations in Iraq and probably later in Afghanistan. These UAVs will be flown by personnel from 32 Regt Royal Artillery, who deployed to Iraq to operate the Desert Hawk UAV.
As far as I am aware, none of the 32 Regt personnel who will fly the Hermes 450 will be military pilots in the traditional sense, they will simply be personnel who are trained and qualified on type by the Army and remain with the regiment, rather than moving on after a 3 year tour.
Perhaps the UAV only stream would be a cost-effective way of re-introducing NCO pilots? Either way, I remain to be convinced that the current RAF system is particularly cost-effective or ideal for retaining the appropriate experience on 39 Sqn who currently operate the Predator UAV.
Heimdall
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Ability is ability whatever rank or service. Responsibility come with the job, respect is earned not awarded whatever the colour of the uniform. The difference in the roles may dictate what rank and experience may be required.
This subject has been and will continue forever
This subject has been and will continue forever