2007 Puma Crash, Enquiry and Inquest (Merged)
...it may be that Nr droop and/or the lack of anticipators may be involved (or contributed in some way), as mentioned by others. If so, then it will not have escaped the notice of the AAIB/RNFSAIC that these problems have been raised, time and time again after past Puma accidents but yet nothing has been done to fix the problem; maybe the Puma MLU and engine upgrade is long, long overdue?
Now, I can't recall many (any!) Puma accidents prior to 94 where this lack of anticpation was an issue - but stand to be corrected. I do know this theme has been a feature in many accidents since, so can't help conclude that it possibly points to a lack of this 'anticpator' awareness. There are many old aircraft still out there with similar issues which, if handled correctly and flown sensibly, should remain safe. I know many fixed-wing aircraft have a minimum power setting on finals so the engine(s), albeit producing a bit more residual thrust, are ready and waiting to provide power at short notice. I do hope that the level of Nr awareness including on-sqn trg is as good as it was in my day when it helped me, my crew and passngers stay safe.
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H Peacock
I left the Puma force in 97 and know of at least two fatal accidents directly attributable to the lack of anticipators prior to 94. There were a number of incidents that involved minor damage (certainly to pride) not least a certain display at a Shawbury graduation in 88 when all the ex-Puma instructors were seen heading for the door as the alternators tripped offline and that tell tale shudder as the autopilot dropped out!
I left the Puma force in 97 and know of at least two fatal accidents directly attributable to the lack of anticipators prior to 94. There were a number of incidents that involved minor damage (certainly to pride) not least a certain display at a Shawbury graduation in 88 when all the ex-Puma instructors were seen heading for the door as the alternators tripped offline and that tell tale shudder as the autopilot dropped out!
...not least a certain display at a Shawbury graduation in 88 when all the ex-Puma instructors were seen heading for the door as the alternators tripped offline and that tell tale shudder as the autopilot dropped out!
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Don't get me wrong, the guy flying was one of the most talented, competent and generally decent blokes I ever served with. It just proves that the beast could catch anyone - it was just a matter of degrees (no pun intended).
Re: "Sloppy Unit"
It would be a shame if the actions of one crew, on one day, were to marr the reputation of an entire squadron, let alone of a whole force.
I would hope that a more balanced view will prevail, that the 'sloppy unit' slur will be quickly forgotten, and that the 'Loyalty', professionalism and flair that the heirs of Pattle's boys have always shown will once again be properly recognised.
This is a Force that has faced and mastered the demands of "unprecedented operational commitment", and its chaps deserve congratulation for having done so, and 33 have always been at the fore. You'd need to 'Search Far' to find their like....
It would be a shame if the actions of one crew, on one day, were to marr the reputation of an entire squadron, let alone of a whole force.
I would hope that a more balanced view will prevail, that the 'sloppy unit' slur will be quickly forgotten, and that the 'Loyalty', professionalism and flair that the heirs of Pattle's boys have always shown will once again be properly recognised.
This is a Force that has faced and mastered the demands of "unprecedented operational commitment", and its chaps deserve congratulation for having done so, and 33 have always been at the fore. You'd need to 'Search Far' to find their like....
Red On, Green On
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Coroner now rowing back on the "sloppy" remark:
BBC NEWS | UK | England | North Yorkshire | Coroner sorry for 'sloppy' remark
BBC NEWS | UK | England | North Yorkshire | Coroner sorry for 'sloppy' remark
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flipster
What you say is true to some extent in respect of RAF Accidents in Categories 3-5 or involving Fatalities; Categories 1&2 would normally be a Unit Inquiry. Any Investigating Officer or Board President will however have access through the Chain of Command, via the Flight Safety Staff, to whatever assistance is deemed necessary by the Convening Officer to fulfill the requirements of the Terms of Reference for the Inquiry. To put that in plain English - it means that the BOI are not guaranteed a week in a Hotel in DisneyWorld just because the last refuelling stop prior to the Accident was in Florida.
PS Thanks for the query - taking it a day at a time.
What you say is true to some extent in respect of RAF Accidents in Categories 3-5 or involving Fatalities; Categories 1&2 would normally be a Unit Inquiry. Any Investigating Officer or Board President will however have access through the Chain of Command, via the Flight Safety Staff, to whatever assistance is deemed necessary by the Convening Officer to fulfill the requirements of the Terms of Reference for the Inquiry. To put that in plain English - it means that the BOI are not guaranteed a week in a Hotel in DisneyWorld just because the last refuelling stop prior to the Accident was in Florida.
PS Thanks for the query - taking it a day at a time.
Last edited by cazatou; 8th Oct 2009 at 19:14.
What I think Jacko should have been using was 'Loyalty'.
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Jayteeto
You'd know better than me, being a QFI, but the retreating blade stall sound is a dagga dagga dagga when you are low, fast and going round a corner a bit sharp. You fix it by dropping a bit of collective, or you end up rolling nose down heading in the direction of travel of the blade. At least thats what I was told 30 odd years ago, and as I've said I'm always prepared to be wrong.
Nr Droop, as you haven't got anticipators on the Puma- very likely, but I have never heard it, so I wouldnt know, Ive always flown Gnome.
You'd know better than me, being a QFI, but the retreating blade stall sound is a dagga dagga dagga when you are low, fast and going round a corner a bit sharp. You fix it by dropping a bit of collective, or you end up rolling nose down heading in the direction of travel of the blade. At least thats what I was told 30 odd years ago, and as I've said I'm always prepared to be wrong.
Nr Droop, as you haven't got anticipators on the Puma- very likely, but I have never heard it, so I wouldnt know, Ive always flown Gnome.
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Nr Droop, as you haven't got anticipators on the Puma- very likely, but I have never heard it
In follow-up discussion*, the 'system' (Sqn Execs & Trainers) was an advocate of anticipaters being in the head of the pilot in command, despite 38years of associated accidents. Duty of care legislation these days means that those nonchallent responses are a thing of the past.
*The situation was openly discussed to all Sqn members, and rightfully so.
Rogersofarover,
Read my post again:
"I would hope that a more balanced view will prevail, that the 'sloppy unit' slur will be quickly forgotten, and that the 'Loyalty', professionalism and flair that the heirs of Pattle's boys have always shown will once again be properly recognised.
This is a Force that has faced and mastered the demands of "unprecedented operational commitment", and its chaps deserve congratulation for having done so, and 33 have always been at the fore. You'd need to 'Search Far' to find their like...."
I even used a winking smiley to make my respect for BOTH Puma mobs clear.
Read my post again:
"I would hope that a more balanced view will prevail, that the 'sloppy unit' slur will be quickly forgotten, and that the 'Loyalty', professionalism and flair that the heirs of Pattle's boys have always shown will once again be properly recognised.
This is a Force that has faced and mastered the demands of "unprecedented operational commitment", and its chaps deserve congratulation for having done so, and 33 have always been at the fore. You'd need to 'Search Far' to find their like...."
I even used a winking smiley to make my respect for BOTH Puma mobs clear.
'Mr Fell said his comments were aimed at the leadership at RAF Benson in Oxfordshire and not the rank and file.
He said he did not "resile" from his remarks but "apologised unreservedly" if they had been misconstrued.'
Mr Fell should remember that 'leadership' does not stop at Benson's main gate!
He said he did not "resile" from his remarks but "apologised unreservedly" if they had been misconstrued.'
Mr Fell should remember that 'leadership' does not stop at Benson's main gate!
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Caz,
You are right but as this ac was Cat 5 with fatalities, I would have thought that the AAIB would have been invited (under the MoU) to 'participate' because I presume the RNFSAIC are being kept quite busy out of area (not that the RAF has any expert accident investigators on which to call anyway!). Nonetheless, as long as either the AAIB or the RNFSAIC have done both the tech side and the ops side, that is a good start - this would be a whole lot better than a BoI/SI anyway....the way ahead perhaps?!
Now, if the ops report (met, supervision, human factors etc) has yet to be completed, then this is a different matter entirely. I can't see how the Coroner can proceed without this information, which could only be properly carried out by a professsional accident investigation unit such as the AAIB or RNFSAIC. I would think someone could confirm this, one way or another?
Wrathmonk - sorry! Yes, indeed those reports will not be open source for some time! If, however, they are in existence, one presumes the authors will called by the Coroner very soon and then we will see what follows on from there. As I am sure you appreciate, there could be a number of possibilities.
Sadly, it is highly likely that the gutter press will focus on the sensational aspects and miss the true gist of what the coroner is seeking to ascertain. I fear this Inquest will be very difficult for the all concerned. Let's hope the quality journos report the important facts and that the outcome really does help 'prevent recurrence'.
Jacko - I agree; let's not taint the whole fleet (and their supervisors) just yet.
flipster
You are right but as this ac was Cat 5 with fatalities, I would have thought that the AAIB would have been invited (under the MoU) to 'participate' because I presume the RNFSAIC are being kept quite busy out of area (not that the RAF has any expert accident investigators on which to call anyway!). Nonetheless, as long as either the AAIB or the RNFSAIC have done both the tech side and the ops side, that is a good start - this would be a whole lot better than a BoI/SI anyway....the way ahead perhaps?!
Now, if the ops report (met, supervision, human factors etc) has yet to be completed, then this is a different matter entirely. I can't see how the Coroner can proceed without this information, which could only be properly carried out by a professsional accident investigation unit such as the AAIB or RNFSAIC. I would think someone could confirm this, one way or another?
Wrathmonk - sorry! Yes, indeed those reports will not be open source for some time! If, however, they are in existence, one presumes the authors will called by the Coroner very soon and then we will see what follows on from there. As I am sure you appreciate, there could be a number of possibilities.
Sadly, it is highly likely that the gutter press will focus on the sensational aspects and miss the true gist of what the coroner is seeking to ascertain. I fear this Inquest will be very difficult for the all concerned. Let's hope the quality journos report the important facts and that the outcome really does help 'prevent recurrence'.
Jacko - I agree; let's not taint the whole fleet (and their supervisors) just yet.
flipster
You'd know better than me, being a QFI, but the retreating blade stall sound is a dagga dagga dagga when you are low, fast and going round a corner a bit sharp. You fix it by dropping a bit of collective, or you end up rolling nose down heading in the direction of travel of the blade. At least thats what I was told 30 odd years ago, and as I've said I'm always prepared to be wrong.